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muscle mass = lower BF?

UglyDucklingSyndrome

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a competing BB friend of mine said to me that since im a naturally fat kid my body frame has a weight that it naturally wants to hold.... now i know you cannot get rid of fat cells unless surgically removed but he said the more muscle mass i put on the lower BF my body will naturally hold.... does anyone have any info into this theory? does this make sense to anyone else? sounds more like a great mental placebo than something that can actually happen but i was wondering about the thoughts of others.... thank you much.
 
A few things here. For starters, the greater your muscle mass the more calories you will burn on a day to day basis. Second, your BF% is a measurement of the weight of your fat in comparison to everything else that is composing your total weight. The more muscle mass you have, the lower your body fat percentage will be (in the theoretical situation where the amount of fat you're carrying stays the same while your muscle mass increases). Hope that helps.

Also if you want my opinion, there is no such thing as a 'naturally fat' kid. You are overweight because you either eat too much, exercise too little, or a combination of the two (unless you have a specific medical condition like hypothyroidism). Now stop worrying about your friends theories and get your ass in the gym and rip up some iron! :)
 
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i wasnt referring to BF%, but the bodys ability to possibly carry less fat based on that theory.... and trust me there is such a thing as a naturally fat kid... always have always will have a slower metabolism.... i played every sport possible and was always active.... to lose 120 lbs i basically starved myself, A. because i didnt know much about nutrition and B. for me (even now) its the only way it seems unless extreme no carb diet with nothing but low fat meats. if you believe there is no such thing as a naturally fat person than you were never in my shoes or had a problem with buring calories like myself and others.
 
and trust me there is such a thing as a naturally fat kid... always have always will have a slower metabolism....

The only way that would be true is if your thyroid is messed up. Get blood test to check T3, T4 and TSH. If all good, it's just excuses. If the thyroid is messed up, you will just be taking a pill a day to make it normal and then you will be like everyone else.

Conclusion - there is no excuse for fat people in the world.
 
The only way that would be true is if your thyroid is messed up. Get blood test to check T3, T4 and TSH. If all good, it's just excuses. If the thyroid is messed up, you will just be taking a pill a day to make it normal and then you will be like everyone else.

Conclusion - there is no excuse for fat people in the world.

Amen. I will say it again, there is no such thing as a naturally fat person, besides those with a thyroid dysfunction. If you have a 'slow metabolism', then you should be naturally eating less to match that metabolism. I am not picking on you, but as mentioned above, the notion is nothing but an excuse. The quicker you realize that, the better off you will be, and the quicker you will attain and see real life results.
 
The only way that would be true is if your thyroid is messed up. Get blood test to check T3, T4 and TSH. If all good, it's just excuses. If the thyroid is messed up, you will just be taking a pill a day to make it normal and then you will be like everyone else.

Conclusion - there is no excuse for fat people in the world.

Unless someone truly has a medical condition, which by the way is rare, then there is no excuse for being fat. I was that “fat kid”. I played a lot of sports and was active but diet is so important. My parents did what a lot of parents do and that is feed their kids crap. Eating too much. Eating junk cereals for breakfast. Pizza, hot dogs, mac and cheese and various other crap for lunch and dinner. Then deserts. So I don’t buy the “naturally fat kid” excuse. Your parents did it to you. Now you’re grown up and you can make the change.
 
he said the more muscle mass i put on the lower BF my body will naturally hold.... does anyone have any info into this theory? does this make sense to anyone else?


This makes sense to me. I think the more muscle you carry the higher your RMR will be, thus more cals burned.

I have noticed this myself...each year I stay leaner and leaner in the off season.

BW
 
my body frame has a weight that it naturally wants to hold.... he said the more muscle mass i put on the lower BF my body will naturally hold....
If he is trying to claim that due to your body wanting to remain in homeostasis, it will automatic lose fat just because you build muscle he is wrong.

An exercise program that builds muscle may result in actual fat loss if your diet remains the same, as you will be burning more calories than before.

Your body has no idea of what you weigh and doesn't care, it merely responds to the external stimuli you provide it in terms of exercise and nutrients.
 
yes its a theoretical question based on tricking the body like you do in ketosis.... hypothetically if your body is predestined to hold a particular weight whether it being muscle or fat, then putting on as much muscle as you can your body would just hold less fat... i was just wondering if it made sense....


on another note... not every human on this face of earth has the same metabloic rate.... thus some people are much easier prone to getting fat without over eating and a lack of excercise... now being the ex fat kid myself i have come to terms with the fact that my life style has to be changed dramatically to get the same results as others... and believe me i cant stand fat people with handicap stickers and there is no excuse to be lazy and just continue to gain weight.... my parents didnt do anything to me... do expect parents to cut meals way down simply for a hunch that their child may have a slower metabolism? i cant see many parents doing that.... im not an expert but i do know that i dont burn calories like some do. when i say naturally fat kid it means that my body doesnt react to food the same as others that couldnt put on fat if they tried.... we all have that friend or maybe youre him that just cant lose his 6 pack no matter what... i have to say my body was never like his in the aspect of burning calories or anything of that sort.... its not like i ate nothing but twinkies for the first 15 years of my life or something.
 
i have to agree with a lot of these guys, a lot of information that you have stated is completely wrong. the first thing is that you know "you have to have fat cells surgically removed." thats not correct at all. one thing is correct though is that lean body mass or muscle tissue does 100% lower your body fat overall. because it takes more for your body to maintain lean body mass. there is nothing hypothetical about it, this is scientific fact. and "naturally fat kid" is bs. if you want to try something you should calorie count and eat six times a day. depending on your situation you should be taking in about 2500 to 3500 kcals/day. not eat six meals a day but six times a day. this will increase the amount of kals you burn because just the process of digestion burns kcals. also drink at least a half gallon of water per day. but your diet is key period.
 
yes its a theoretical question based on tricking the body like you do in ketosis.... hypothetically if your body is predestined to hold a particular weight whether it being muscle or fat, then putting on as much muscle as you can your body would just hold less fat... i was just wondering if it made sense....


on another note... not every human on this face of earth has the same metabloic rate.... thus some people are much easier prone to getting fat without over eating and a lack of excercise... now being the ex fat kid myself i have come to terms with the fact that my life style has to be changed dramatically to get the same results as others... and believe me i cant stand fat people with handicap stickers and there is no excuse to be lazy and just continue to gain weight.... my parents didnt do anything to me... do expect parents to cut meals way down simply for a hunch that their child may have a slower metabolism? i cant see many parents doing that.... im not an expert but i do know that i dont burn calories like some do. when i say naturally fat kid it means that my body doesnt react to food the same as others that couldnt put on fat if they tried.... we all have that friend or maybe youre him that just cant lose his 6 pack no matter what... i have to say my body was never like his in the aspect of burning calories or anything of that sort.... its not like i ate nothing but twinkies for the first 15 years of my life or something.
But you just made a point "not every human on this face of earth has the same metabloic rate.... thus some people are much easier prone to getting fat without over eating and a lack of excercise..."

This is very true. But you have to work with what you are given. I saw your pictures in another thread and it seems you have increased your metabolism, no? I am not trying to discourage you as it looks to me you have made great progress.

Fact is some of us are more prone to pack on the fat weight. I am an ex fat kid like yourself. I couldn't eat the same foods my friends did without packing on excess weight. Did it mean my metabolism was a lost cause? No, but I realized that I couldn't be as care free as the kids around me.

But here's the deal, I'm older now. The last 15+ years of diet/exercise have made it so I look much better than my friends from high school/college do today. You'll find that most of those who "were this", or "were that" wont be much of anything if they stopped getting exercise and continued to eat as if the were 18.

As long as you realize you can't eat crap food without packing on the pounds, then don't. Maybe you never will burn calories like some of these guys here - so what? Trust me - neither will I. That just means you and I need to take a few less calories in. Right?

I think it just boils down to genetics. In your case you have to fight the waistline. But it's not an impossible fight. Again, from your pic it looks like one your winning. Keep up the good work, stay positive, and do what you know you have to do!
 
when you lose fat youre simply depleating the fat cell itself but its there unless removed by surgery or if lipo-dissolve does actually work the way it states it does. over eating once can very easily implode that cell and thats why people that diet gain their weight back so easily becuase its easier to implode existing cells than it is to create new ones.

so i guess everyone ever born has the exact same genetic make up with the exact same metabolic rate and ability to burn calories so anyone that doesnt have a six pack or isnt constantly ripped is just over eating and are lazy correct? thats what youre all saying? well then how come my friend who eats like shit drinks beer almost every night doesnt do physical activities always has a 6 pack? and i do eat many small meals a day.... my current eating regimen isnt the discussion.... all im saying is that some people have a fast metabolism and some dont.... its that simple.... and those who dont are prone to gain weight eating the same thing that someone with a fast metabolism does.
 
But you just made a point "not every human on this face of earth has the same metabloic rate.... thus some people are much easier prone to getting fat without over eating and a lack of excercise..."

This is very true. But you have to work with what you are given. I saw your pictures in another thread and it seems you have increased your metabolism, no? I am not trying to discourage you as it looks to me you have made great progress.

Fact is some of us are more prone to pack on the fat weight. I am an ex fat kid like yourself. I couldn't eat the same foods my friends did without packing on excess weight. Did it mean my metabolism was a lost cause? No, but I realized that I couldn't be as care free as the kids around me.

But here's the deal, I'm older now. The last 15+ years of diet/exercise have made it so I look much better than my friends from high school/college do today. You'll find that most of those who "were this", or "were that" wont be much of anything if they stopped getting exercise and continued to eat as if the were 18.

As long as you realize you can't eat crap food without packing on the pounds, then don't. Maybe you never will burn calories like some of these guys here - so what? Trust me - neither will I. That just means you and I need to take a few less calories in. Right?

I think it just boils down to genetics. In your case you have to fight the waistline. But it's not an impossible fight. Again, from your pic it looks like one your winning. Keep up the good work, stay positive, and do what you know you have to do!

thank you thats what i was trying to say.... some of these people are just saying that if youre fat the only reason is because of laziness and over eating.... i wish i was blessed with the fast metabolism and could eat whatever but i have altered my life to adapt..... and youre right i dont eat crap food and i try to eat healthy....i have tried hard to adapt and we have to watch it more than some... i just get riled up when people dont understand..... thats the reason i joined this board i think there are many great minds on here with like and unlike stories that can help me finally achieve what i want .... i do greatly appreciate all feedback positive or negative.... understanding or not .... thanks guys
 
I think the 'I've got a fast/slow metabolism' is bs, but you guys know how hard it is to stay very lean, now imagine how hard it would be if you had double the amount of fat cells.

If you have a small amount of fat cells and eat lots of rubish then the fat cells have to bloat up quite a bit where as if you have lots of fat cells then the cells will not bloat up as much on the same amount of food. And I think when it comes to loosing the weight that the bloated cells will loose the weight easier.

And yes I've always been fat :( although I ate enough calories when I was young to keep 2 bodybuilders going - damned biscuits.
 
You know what, I used to be fat. I used to think it was because I had a slow metabolism. I used to think that I would have to eat next to nothing to lose weight. Guess what? I eat upwards of 3500 -4000+ calories on a daily basis now, and am putting on very little to no body fat as I bulk. Quit making excuses for yourself and start doing something to make a change.

And parents should absolutely reduce the food they are feeding their child if they are becoming overweight, and switch to healthy, whole food items instead of fruit loops and hot dogs.
 
Your body has no idea of what you weigh and doesn't care, it merely responds to the external stimuli you provide it in terms of exercise and nutrients.

Koevoet, so you're saying there is no such thing as a 'set point' in terms of how much fat the body 'wants' to hold?

Is it merely a matter of being 'comfortable' with lifestyle habits which are creating the physique, hence why so many people return to their old selves after reaching their goal...it's behavioral? (sorry if this is oversimplifying)
 
NYTime article on weight and genetics

May 8, 2007
Genes Take Charge, and Diets Fall by the Wayside
By GINA KOLATA
It was 1959. Jules Hirsch, a research physician at Rockefeller University, had gotten curious about weight loss in the obese. He was about to start a simple experiment that would change forever the way scientists think about fat.

Obese people, he knew, had huge fat cells, stuffed with glistening yellow fat. What happened to those cells when people lost weight, he wondered. Did they shrink or did they go away? He decided to find out.

It seemed straightforward. Dr. Hirsch found eight people who had been fat since childhood or adolescence and who agreed to live at the Rockefeller University Hospital for eight months while scientists would control their diets, make them lose weight and then examine their fat cells.

The study was rigorous and demanding. It began with an agonizing four weeks of a maintenance diet that assessed the subjects’ metabolism and caloric needs. Then the diet began. The only food permitted was a liquid formula providing 600 calories a day, a regimen that guaranteed they would lose weight. Finally, the subjects spent another four weeks on a diet that maintained them at their new weights, 100 pounds lower than their initial weights, on average.

Dr. Hirsch answered his original question — the subjects’ fat cells had shrunk and were now normal in size. And everyone, including Dr. Hirsch, assumed that the subjects would leave the hospital permanently thinner.

That did not happen. Instead, Dr. Hirsch says, “they all regained.” He was horrified. The study subjects certainly wanted to be thin, so what went wrong? Maybe, he thought, they had some deep-seated psychological need to be fat.

So Dr. Hirsch and his colleagues, including Dr. Rudolph L. Leibel, who is now at Columbia University, repeated the experiment and repeated it again. Every time the result was the same. The weight, so painstakingly lost, came right back. But since this was a research study, the investigators were also measuring metabolic changes, psychiatric conditions, body temperature and pulse. And that led them to a surprising conclusion: fat people who lost large amounts of weight might look like someone who was never fat, but they were very different. In fact, by every metabolic measurement, they seemed like people who were starving.

Before the diet began, the fat subjects’ metabolism was normal — the number of calories burned per square meter of body surface was no different from that of people who had never been fat. But when they lost weight, they were burning as much as 24 percent fewer calories per square meter of their surface area than the calories consumed by those who were naturally thin.

The Rockefeller subjects also had a psychiatric syndrome, called semi-starvation neurosis, which had been noticed before in people of normal weight who had been starved. They dreamed of food, they fantasized about food or about breaking their diet. They were anxious and depressed; some had thoughts of suicide. They secreted food in their rooms. And they binged.

The Rockefeller researchers explained their observations in one of their papers: “It is entirely possible that weight reduction, instead of resulting in a normal state for obese patients, results in an abnormal state resembling that of starved nonobese individuals.”

Eventually, more than 50 people lived at the hospital and lost weight, and every one had physical and psychological signs of starvation. There were a very few who did not get fat again, but they made staying thin their life’s work, becoming Weight Watchers lecturers, for example, and, always, counting calories and maintaining themselves in a permanent state of starvation.

“Did those who stayed thin simply have more willpower?” Dr. Hirsch asked. “In a funny way, they did.”

One way to interpret Dr. Hirsch and Dr. Leibel’s studies would be to propose that once a person got fat, the body would adjust, making it hopeless to lose weight and keep it off. The issue was important, because if getting fat was the problem, there might be a solution to the obesity epidemic: convince people that any weight gain was a step toward an irreversible condition that they most definitely did not want to have.

But another group of studies showed that that hypothesis, too, was wrong.

It began with studies that were the inspiration of Dr. Ethan Sims at the University of Vermont, who asked what would happen if thin people who had never had a weight problem deliberately got fat.

His subjects were prisoners at a nearby state prison who volunteered to gain weight. With great difficulty, they succeeded, increasing their weight by 20 percent to 25 percent. But it took them four to six months, eating as much as they could every day. Some consumed 10,000 calories a day, an amount so incredible that it would be hard to believe, were it not for the fact that there were attendants present at each meal who dutifully recorded everything the men ate.

Once the men were fat, their metabolisms increased by 50 percent. They needed more than 2,700 calories per square meter of their body surface to stay fat but needed just 1,800 calories per square meter to maintain their normal weight.

When the study ended, the prisoners had no trouble losing weight. Within months, they were back to normal and effortlessly stayed there.

The implications were clear. There is a reason that fat people cannot stay thin after they diet and that thin people cannot stay fat when they force themselves to gain weight. The body’s metabolism speeds up or slows down to keep weight within a narrow range. Gain weight and the metabolism can as much as double; lose weight and it can slow to half its original speed.

That, of course, was contrary to what every scientist had thought, and Dr. Sims knew it, as did Dr. Hirsch.

The message never really got out to the nation’s dieters, but a few research scientists were intrigued and asked the next question about body weight: Is body weight inherited, or is obesity more of an inadvertent, almost unconscious response to a society where food is cheap, abundant and tempting? An extra 100 calories a day will pile on 10 pounds in a year, public health messages often say. In five years, that is 50 pounds.

The assumption was that environment determined weight, but Dr. Albert Stunkard of the University of Pennsylvania wondered if that was true and, if so, to what extent. It was the early 1980s, long before obesity became what one social scientist called a moral panic, but a time when those questions of nature versus nurture were very much on Dr. Stunkard’s mind.

He found the perfect tool for investigating the nature-nurture question — a Danish registry of adoptees developed to understand whether schizophrenia was inherited. It included meticulous medical records of every Danish adoption between 1927 and 1947, including the names of the adoptees’ biological parents, and the heights and weights of the adoptees, their biological parents and their adoptive parents.

Dr. Stunkard ended up with 540 adults whose average age was 40. They had been adopted when they were very young — 55 percent had been adopted in the first month of life and 90 percent were adopted in the first year of life. His conclusions, published in The New England Journal of Medicine in 1986, were unequivocal. The adoptees were as fat as their biological parents, and how fat they were had no relation to how fat their adoptive parents were.

The scientists summarized it in their paper: “The two major findings of this study were that there was a clear relation between the body-mass index of biologic parents and the weight class of adoptees, suggesting that genetic influences are important determinants of body fatness; and that there was no relation between the body-mass index of adoptive parents and the weight class of adoptees, suggesting that childhood family environment alone has little or no effect.”

In other words, being fat was an inherited condition.

Dr. Stunkard also pointed out the implications: “Current efforts to prevent obesity are directed toward all children (and their parents) almost indiscriminately. Yet if family environment alone has no role in obesity, efforts now directed toward persons with little genetic risk of the disorder could be refocused on the smaller number who are more vulnerable. Such persons can already be identified with some assurance: 80 percent of the offspring of two obese parents become obese, as compared with no more than 14 percent of the offspring of two parents of normal weight.”

A few years later, in 1990, Dr. Stunkard published another study in The New England Journal of Medicine, using another classic method of geneticists: investigating twins. This time, he used the Swedish Twin Registry, studying its 93 pairs of identical twins who were reared apart, 154 pairs of identical twins who were reared together, 218 pairs of fraternal twins who were reared apart, and 208 pairs of fraternal twins who were reared together.

The identical twins had nearly identical body mass indexes, whether they had been reared apart or together. There was more variation in the body mass indexes of the fraternal twins, who, like any siblings, share some, but not all, genes.

The researchers concluded that 70 percent of the variation in peoples’ weights may be accounted for by inheritance, a figure that means that weight is more strongly inherited than nearly any other condition, including mental illness, breast cancer or heart disease.

The results did not mean that people are completely helpless to control their weight, Dr. Stunkard said. But, he said, it did mean that those who tend to be fat will have to constantly battle their genetic inheritance if they want to reach and maintain a significantly lower weight.

The findings also provided evidence for a phenomenon that scientists like Dr. Hirsch and Dr. Leibel were certain was true — each person has a comfortable weight range to which the body gravitates. The range might span 10 or 20 pounds: someone might be able to weigh 120 to 140 pounds without too much effort. Going much above or much below the natural weight range is difficult, however; the body resists by increasing or decreasing the appetite and changing the metabolism to push the weight back to the range it seeks.

The message is so at odds with the popular conception of weight loss — the mantra that all a person has to do is eat less and exercise more — that Dr. Jeffrey Friedman, an obesity researcher at the Rockefeller University, tried to come up with an analogy that would convey what science has found about the powerful biological controls over body weight.

He published it in the journal Science in 2000 and still cites it:

“Those who doubt the power of basic drives, however, might note that although one can hold one’s breath, this conscious act is soon overcome by the compulsion to breathe,” Dr. Friedman wrote. “The feeling of hunger is intense and, if not as potent as the drive to breathe, is probably no less powerful than the drive to drink when one is thirsty. This is the feeling the obese must resist after they have lost a significant amount of weight.”

This is an excerpt from Gina Kolata’s new book, “Rethinking Thin: The New Science of Weight Loss — and the Myths and Realities of Dieting” (Farrar, Straus & Giroux).
 
In the Hirsch study, the subjects lost weight by being severely underfed which slowed their metabolisms & caused food obsessions. It was doomed to be ineffective long term.
 
In the Hirsch study, the subjects lost weight by being severely underfed which slowed their metabolisms & caused food obsessions. It was doomed to be ineffective long term.

Yep-

He placed his participants on a "liquid diet" of 600 calories for the duration of his experiment. HOWEVER, and this is important, what he didn't do was monitor what his participants ate after they'd left the program.

So, if their normal dietary intake prior to the controlled diet consisted of fried eggs, steak, potatoes, ice cream, whatever... then yeah, they are going to regain every bit of the weight they lost.

He didn't teach those people how to maintain the loss. he just showed them how to lose via starvation.

Ifyou put ME on a diet of 600 calories per day, I'm going to start fantasizing about food too!

There are definitely flaws to the studies that were done all those years ago. Example, in the study with the prisoners, how much labor/activity were they engaged in ? Keeping in mind that during the 40s/50s, chain gangs and hard labor were the norm for prisoners. those prisoners may well have been eating upwards of 2,700 cals per day, BUT.... if they were engaged in hard labor, then they were burning off those cals.
 

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