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my keto diet...good to go? phil and other please :)

basically a keto diet looks boring as hell and when i try em i have a hard time with bowel movements and i look and feel like shit.
i can get ripped on a good macro ratio. it includes all of the macro nutrients which seems to make perfect sense to me. why deny body a nutrient? i think it just makes things harder then it needs to be.
my point is keto diets are unnecassry and pretty unnatural as well. thus it makes me feel awful. don't like em at all.
thats all.
-JS

The bolded portion could be a 100 page debate.Unnatural to who? and where?

Geographical regions influence natural food sources.Ex. Early Eskimos probably didn't consume much fruit,lol.Breads and pasta are very unnatural and egyptians farming and storing grains were the first recorded instances of certain disease and health conditions.

People grow up with an abundance of sugars and processed food so the feeling of being fatiqued, foggy,bloated ,indigestion,peaks and valleys in blood glucose is what we think is normal.

Again this could be debated til the cows come home.
 
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thermogenically fats are inferior than complex carbohydrates, however i think dave`s diet is more of "hormonal" control ( doing every thing in hand to minimize insulin levels). Now for the thermogenic disadvantage don`t you think adding fibrous zero carbohydrate vegges with the meals would be a good idea....and then they will also contribute their bit in Bowel movements?

YES to that ^

I don't agree with eating like cavemen. we have better control than that. if you wanna base diet on hunting and gathering good luck lol. i prefer to go to the store:D
i don't want a pissing match about evolution. i simply vote against keto diets cuz they are not necassary in my EXPERIENCE.
-JS
 
The bolded portion could be a 100 page debate.Unnatural to who? and where?

Geographical regions influence natural food sources.Ex. Early Eskimos probably didn't consume much fruit,lol.Breads and pasta are very unnatural and egyptians farming and storing grains were the first recorded instances of certain disease and health conditions.

People grow up with an abundance of sugars and processed food so the feeling of being fatiqued, foggy,bloated ,indigestion,peaks and valleys in blood glucose is what we think is normal.

Again this could be debated til the cows come home.

lol. i like you KID1 so i will simply say it is unnatural to ME. my body seems to want all the macronutrients. when i deny myself of carbs i don't feel as good nor look as good nor lift as good nor grow as good nor shit as good so i do not like keto diets.
i feel you are trying very hard to get into a debate about all this and thats not the OP's intention nor mine. just giving him MY advice based on MY EXPERIENCE so he can draw his own conclusions.
i don't care what you are him or anyone does just here to offer my experience. keto diets never made sense to me.
gotta get baqck to work...
-JS
 
and why do cavemen always come up in these discussions? no one on here is a caveman or a hunter gatherer, cavemen didnt go to the gym for an hour everyday and eat 6-8 evenly spaced meals nor did they use anabolics. theres a huge gap between the average person and athletes or bodybuilders. im sure cavemen were leaner than the average american now but i doubt they were building too much muscle mass. i think athletes need all of the macronutrients to some degree to get the best results.
 
lol. i like you KID1 so i will simply say it is unnatural to ME. my body seems to want all the macronutrients. when i deny myself of carbs i don't feel as good nor look as good nor lift as good nor grow as good nor shit as good so i do not like keto diets.
i feel you are trying very hard to get into a debate about all this and thats not the OP's intention nor mine. just giving him MY advice based on MY EXPERIENCE so he can draw his own conclusions.
i don't care what you are him or anyone does just here to offer my experience. keto diets never made sense to me.
gotta get baqck to work...
-JS

Not at all trying to debate.As you stated you gave your experience and opinion.So I am just stating some history about nutritional observations and some of my own EXPERIENCE as well as what has worked for my patients.

personally, I think between 80-120 grams of carbs is ideal as it gives enough to keep glycogen full and enough energy to train.But I think a keto has some benefits as a tool for weight loss too.

I agree with you that people should try it and find out for themselves and how they personally respond.
 
I did a keto diet a couple of times and got pretty lean, but I was absoutely miserable most of the time. Low energy and felt lethargic. I also had bad headaches on it.
If youre going to do it, make sure you have the keto sticks to measure your ketones in the urine. I found that a lot of the time I wasnt in ketosis and I was surprised because i was taking in about 10 grams max carbs/day. If you take in too much protein it can throw you out of ketosis though, and I think that was my problem(gluconeogenesis). Nevertheless I got pretty lean.

When I did Phil's diet I acutally lost bodyfat faster and felt 10X better. So for me at least, the keto diet wasnt a good choice. AI also think that a keto diet isnt something that you can maintain for life. that would be nearly impossible. I sensible diet like what Phil has you do though is easy and can be maintained as long as you wish.


care to explain mate?
 
also i would only be diong this for fat loss.

i dont mind borring tastless diets as long as results come in.

once i get to were i want in leanness...i would slowly introduce carbs
 
better ways

IMO there are so many better ways to diet than keto. The whole concept of keto is dangerous and extreme. I rarely hear good experiences from people doing keto.
Other diets work great and don't put you into a coma.

Also remember, your using steroids with this and a serious workout schedule.
If you decide to do this then keep us posted. I always see where someone says they are starting a keyto diet and then I never hear the results. my guess is because they were unable to do it.

For the guy who said that the Egyptians were the first to record disease and sickness. Humans have recorded disease and sickness as far back as there has been human recorded language. Egyptians were some of the first people to record language on pypyrus. Hmmm.
I think billions of people in China have been consumming rice as the main staple in their diet for thousands of years. Not many overweight people in China as far as I know.
Also, humans have always been eating wild grains. At some point in history man figured out he could cultivate wild grains so he didn't have to search for them.
 
As a student of bodybuilding i made notes from some great coaches or teachers so ,These are my notes from ( Teaching`s of Chris Aceto, Dave Palumbo, Lyle Mcdonald and other tit bits of information from here and there.) so it’s a compilation of facts I made years ago while trying to learn about these diets, just hope this helps you bro.

I think ketogenic diets were discovered while keeping ( "insulin resistant" obese people) type people in mind, where lowering of calories does`nt work that well. Where these people suffer from chronically high insulin levels,(as we know that high insulin levels will decrease burning of free fatty acids)
Exercise don`t work because they feel light headed due to dropping of blood glucose levels.

These kind of people are “sugar burners”, they “never burn fat”. An overweight or obese person will release more insulin than a lean person for 75 grams of carbohydrates, so here calories reduction does not work, as body adapts to caloric reduction faster than that of the lean person.

So when carbohydrates are totally restricted from the diet a “switching effect” takes over where the metabolism of a person is shifted from glucose to free fatty acids and ketones. This switching effect takes 3 to 4 days, when glucose falls, hormones(glucagon from pancreas and epinephrine from adrenals) try to raise blood glucose levels to 70mg/100ml, until the blood is almost devoid of glucose.

Epinephrine and glucagon stimulate lipolysis(liberation of fatty acids from fat cells)These liberated fatty acids provide fuel to the muscle and glycerol gets converted to glucose to fuel the brain.

PREVENTING MUSCLE LOSS As with any diet this diet also has the danger of muscle loss, however this muscle loss can be minimized by naturally occurring growth hormone and increased intake of dietary proteins, some amino acids are taken up by the liver to undergo gluconeogenisis to supply glucose to the brain, by increasing the dietary protein (1.5-2 x lean body mass in pounds) liver takes up amino acids from food rather than muscle mass.

“Protein sparing fuels” to preserve muscle mass 0.5 x lean body mass amount of monounsaturated fats intake is introduced in the diet which is “protein sparing” therefore “muscle sparing” too along with this “free fatty acids” and “ketone bodies” derived from body fat are also protein sparing.
Ketone bodies- as free fatty acids reach the liver incomplete breakdown of free fatty acids in the liver occur and ketones are formed, when produced in excess are passed out through urine, however some still stay in the body to provide fuel to the brain

Adding dietary fat with protein has minimized muscle loss and protein used up in gluconeogenisis has gone down to 10 percent(dietary protein only)(as per dave palumbo interview on his keto genic diet.

After 5th to 6th day of low caloric intake metabolism starts to slow down and fat cells seem to resist the release of fatty acids with increase in LPL (lipo-protein lipase) enzyme levels and decrease in thyroid hormone levels.

Carbohydrate loading day
When a person is losing body fat it is very likely that the muscle glycogen stores are never “full” and there is a relationship between muscle glycogen stores and fat loss, if the muscle glycogen stores are full body will start gaining body fat.

After 5th to 6th day of low caloric intake metabolism starts to slow down and fat cells seem to resist the release of fatty acids with increase in LPL enzyme levels and decrease in thyroid hormone levels.
Helps us in certain ways such as

*Causes a huge insulin spike which maximizes T4 to T3(T3 regulates the basal metabolic rate) conversion and suppresses LPL levels.

*A single carbohydrate loading day cannot “totally” fill up the glycogen stores (as they were before the actual diet started) so they deplete at an even faster rate than before.

So it eliminates any metabolic slow down.

*Increases the metabolic rate as glycogen levels are maximized there is increase in thermogenesis. Assuming we eat 400 grams of carbohydrate glycogen is stored in the muscle and every time we eat it body temperature rises and burns around 10 percent calories are used up in digesting those 400 calories.

* Increased IGF-1 levels occurs from going from low carbohydrate to high carbohydrate meals which may be beneficial laying down new muscle or at least saving it.

*improves Insulin sensitivity of the muscle cell.

Muscle mass is the “primary” metabolism regulating factor.
***please take this seriously*** thanks to johnny smiles for making me realize this concept (*please check your PM box JS))

When a person is “starving” he first utilizes his glycogen stores for his “survival”, which gets over in a 24 to 36 hour period and then the body starts using “adipose tissue (fat)” and “lean muscle tissue”. Why do you think body starts ripping away it`s own “lean muscle tissue”? Because energy requirement for the survival of “lean muscle tissue” is the biggest (number one) factor responsible for metabolism regulation, now if the body gives away muscle mass, the daily usage of energy will slowed down drastically and body will be able to survive longer.

Now if the body does not give away the muscle mass at any point, all the adipose tissue will be used up for energy and at a very fast pace.
So in order to lose body fat we need to either “gain” or at least “maintain” the “lean muscle mass”
.

Now this means you have to put in every resource that supports “muscle growth” which is high protein diet with a good ratio of other macronutrients.(which does not promote fat gains on the other hand thermogenically and hormonally lead to fat loss).

So gaining or maintaining muscle mass should be priority number one.
Remember that “gaining muscle” or “maintaining muscle” is the primary metabolic booster. While trying to loose fat.

 
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Thanks Dr for the info. Lots of good stuff there. Knowing the facts helps make good decisions.
 
Ketosis versus Ketoacidosis **This is from Lyle mc Donald**

There is frequent confusion between the dietary ketosis seen during a ketogenic diet andthe pathological and potentially fatal state of diabetic ketoacidosis (DKA).

DKA occurs only inType I diabetes, a disease characterized by a defect in the pancreas, whereby insulin cannot be produced. Type I diabetics must take insulin injections to maintain normal blood glucose levels.
In diabetics who are without insulin for some time, a state that is similar to dietary ketosisbegins to develop but with several differences.

Although both dietary ketosis and DKA are characterized by a low insulin/glucagon ratio, a non-diabetic individual will only develop ketosis with low blood glucose (below 80 mg/dl) while a Type I diabetic will develop ketosis with extremely high blood glucose levels (Type I diabetics may have blood glucose levels of 300 mg/dl or more).

Additionally, the complete lack of insulin in Type I diabetics appears to further increase ketone body formation in these individuals. While a non-diabetic individual may produce 115-180grams of ketones per day .

Type I diabetics have been found to produce up to 400 grams of
ketones per day . The drop in blood pH seen in DKA is probably related to the
overproduction of ketones under these circumstances.

This increase in ketone formation is coupled with an inability in the Type I diabetic to use ketones in body tissues . Presumably this occurs because blood glucose is present in adequate amounts making glucose the preferred fuel. Thus there is a situation where ketone bodyformation is high but ketone body utilization by the body is very low, causing a rapid buildup of
ketones in the bloodstream.

Additionally, in non-diabetic individuals there are at least two feedback loops to prevent runaway ketoacidosis from occurring. When ketones reach high concentrations in the bloodstream (approximately 4-6 mmol), they stimulate a release of insulin. This increase in insulin has three major effects .
First, it slows FFA release from the fat cell.
Second, by raising the insulin/glucagon ratio, the rate of ketone body formation in the liver is decreased .
Third, it increases the excretion of ketones into the urine. These three effects all serve to lower
blood ketone body concentration.


Type I diabetics lack both of these feedback loops. Their inability to release insulin from the pancreas prevents high ketone body levels from regulating their own production. The clinical treatment for DKA is insulin injection which rapidly shuts down ketone body formation in the
liver, slows FFA release from fat cells, and pushes ketones out of the bloodstream . Additionally, rehydration and electrolyte supplementation is necessary to correct for the effects of DKA .


The feedback loops present in a non-insulin using individual will prevent metabolic ketosis from ever reaching the levels of runaway DKA.
 
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Thanks Dr for the info. Lots of good stuff there. Knowing the facts helps make good decisions.

Now that the OP has made up his mind to go for ketogenic diet, i am just making him aware of a few things. Hope this helps him.
 
care to explain mate?

Well, his diet is pretty much balanced in all types of foods : meats, vegitables, and even fruits. The diet is going to vary for each person as he gets feedback from you as you go along. One of the big things he has you do is eat only when hungry, instead of force feeding yourself every 3 hours. Phil's rates are crazy low for the year. If youre really serious about getting in great shape PM Phil and see about getting his help because his rate is really affordable.
 
IMO there are so many better ways to diet than keto. The whole concept of keto is dangerous and extreme. I rarely hear good experiences from people doing keto.
Other diets work great and don't put you into a coma.

Also remember, your using steroids with this and a serious workout schedule.
If you decide to do this then keep us posted. I always see where someone says they are starting a keyto diet and then I never hear the results. my guess is because they were unable to do it.

For the guy who said that the Egyptians were the first to record disease and sickness. Humans have recorded disease and sickness as far back as there has been human recorded language. Egyptians were some of the first people to record language on pypyrus. Hmmm.I think billions of people in China have been consumming rice as the main staple in their diet for thousands of years. Not many overweight people in China as far as I know.
Also, humans have always been eating wild grains. At some point in history man figured out he could cultivate wild grains so he didn't have to search for them.

Not true factually or historically .While getting my bachelors in NUTRTION before going on to Chiro school .I took a class or two that covered nutrition and disease.I am not going to reiterate the classes but when large amounts of grains were consumed through farming and storage things became evident.This also was by the Egyptians who had slaves do all the work and the rich sat around and ate and things changed in their bodies.

Grains are inflammatory to the body and that can be proven and has been through studies using inflammatory markers in the body.

The chinese do eat rice,but portions are small not like us fatass americans and they also consume way more vegetables than rice with their protein.

There is so much I could get into from learning and studying this stuff for years and years.lifespans around the world and specific diets.But is what jumps out at me most is with my patients and the overweight really sick ones.When you have them write down what they eat for 3 days to a week.There is a common denominator and it goes along with these things recorded in history and the very things I learned in those classes.High amounts of carbs and processed foods and sedentary lifestyle.
 
I read an article over on Rxmuscle yesterday where the guy said along these lines and I like it a lot.
Your body needs and thrives on Protein and fats to run and is like an engine.Carbs are like a shot of nitrous for bursts of energy.If you go full blown nitrous all the time you blow out the engine.

He then goes into the pancreas getting overworked and insulin resistance etc...

That is brilliant and so true.
I am going to use that one with my patients;)
 
Without getting into the health discussion of this topic... Keto diets will work, but I think should only been implented for short periods of time (if at all). The main disadvantage with keto that I experienced when dieting this way was it was very hard to gauge muscle loss because of the extreme flatness I had when dieting. Then adding carbs back in the mix the last 3 days before a contest is just a mess waiting to happen. Months without them (except for cheat days) and then eating them will bloat you up like a dead orca. I won't diet that way again.
 
Heres a portion of an old thread with Charles Poliquin's views:


Diet

"Approximately 75% of people are carb intolerant and should not be eating grains; the grains are getting people fat. The first step is to get the Omega 3?s in balance by taking hi-quality fish oils. You must eat protein with every meal even breakfast. A meat and nut breakfast will make you leaner even if you do not change the rest of your diet. It is best if you rotate the meat each breakfast. Eat 6-7 meals per day with protein plus smart fats in every meal.

A long-term low carbohydrate diet is the solution for fat people even after they have lost the fat. To begin the diet, eat only meat, fish, eggs, cheese and vegetables (50g of carbs per day or less). Follow this diet for 14 days then have a cheat day, eat whatever you want for the entire day. Return to the ultra low carb diet and have a cheat meal (one sitting) every 4th or 5th day."
 
Not true factually or historically .While getting my bachelors in NUTRTION before going on to Chiro school .I took a class or two that covered nutrition and disease.I am not going to reiterate the classes but when large amounts of grains were consumed through farming and storage things became evident.This also was by the Egyptians who had slaves do all the work and the rich sat around and ate and things changed in their bodies.

Grains are inflammatory to the body and that can be proven and has been through studies using inflammatory markers in the body.

The chinese do eat rice,but portions are small not like us fatass americans and they also consume way more vegetables than rice with their protein.

There is so much I could get into from learning and studying this stuff for years and years.lifespans around the world and specific diets.But is what jumps out at me most is with my patients and the overweight really sick ones.When you have them write down what they eat for 3 days to a week.There is a common denominator and it goes along with these things recorded in history and the very things I learned in those classes.High amounts of carbs and processed foods and sedentary lifestyle.

Its no secret...When people want to diet why don't they just look at what our ancestors ate before agriculture came about, give it a try and see what results they get.

Fruits, leaves, grasses, roots, berries, nuts,fish and mostly grazing animals.

Maybe I will just try a fruit and meat diet for a few months.:D
 
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Not true factually or historically .While getting my bachelors in NUTRTION before going on to Chiro school .I took a class or two that covered nutrition and disease.I am not going to reiterate the classes but when large amounts of grains were consumed through farming and storage things became evident.This also was by the Egyptians who had slaves do all the work and the rich sat around and ate and things changed in their bodies.

Grains are inflammatory to the body and that can be proven and has been through studies using inflammatory markers in the body.

The chinese do eat rice,but portions are small not like us fatass americans and they also consume way more vegetables than rice with their protein.

There is so much I could get into from learning and studying this stuff for years and years.lifespans around the world and specific diets.But is what jumps out at me most is with my patients and the overweight really sick ones.When you have them write down what they eat for 3 days to a week.There is a common denominator and it goes along with these things recorded in history and the very things I learned in those classes.High amounts of carbs and processed foods and sedentary lifestyle.

all of which i don't do and FEW people (if any) on this board do.
apples and oranges.
i can't divulge all my diet info but i eat little amounts of starches. they are part of my diet but not a large part at all.
sounds like you are passionate about your job and thats awesome bro! all good info to guys on the board who are trying to find out what works.
-JS
 
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Its no secret...When people want to diet why don't they just look at what our ancestors ate before agriculture came and give it a try and see what results they get.

Fruits, leaves, grasses, roots, berries, nuts,fish and mostly grazing animals.

Maybe I will just try and fruit and meat diet for a few months.

no kidding thats almost EXACTLY how i eat...:)
-JS
 

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