Not to ruffle any feathers on here but......

[PHIL HERNON]

Great!

Phil.. and you other guys.. have a read of 'Discovering Life on Earth' by David Attenborough. Great book.

All these arguements about God and faith and evolution... Its only sheer ignorance and a mental capacity of an amoeba to think that one sweep of a hand or mystical force created the valleys and the mountains and all living organisms.

Do I believe in God? Yes of course and Im spiritual. This isnt to say that the Bible or the Koran or the Bhagwand Geeta is to be taken totally literal in all its interpretations.

N.

Thanks, I will have to get that. Yes, you can be very spiritual and still believe that everything changes/adapts.

 

[Iabadman]

Awesome post guys .............[ both sides really .......this is a subject I have done much research on and have my own feelings on the subject . I have even stumped a few religious experts with my thoughts , but I will choose to keep my opinions to myself ] But I will say I one thing ...........I truely appreciate faith , spirituality , and strong moral beliefs ..........but when people throw around the concept of God they are blindly throwing around a concept that they could not possibily truely understand ............to understand God would mean to be able to understand infinity .........we all know for a fact that the human brain does not even have close to the capacity to understand and conceptualize infinity in it's currant state of evolution ..........So could there be one creator [ ala God ] ? Yes , I would be ignorant to dispute such fact ........But when people speak on either side they are both speaking out of emotion , need for explaintion , and out of man's inate fear of death ...........The fact of the matter is , no one really knows the truth and if you think that you do, it is because that is what you need emotionally to get through life . [ this goes for both sides IMO ] Think about it .................if you are religious you are putting blind faith in others interpitations of the so called word of God .........do you really trust that ? Think of why religions came about ? [ to control others , instill fear , fullfill peoples need for explaination and for need to belong , and to generate money / power for the church ] .......those seem like human concepts and not concepts of one true God to me ? If people want to trust and give themselves to those concepts then great ,good for them ......but that is Faith not fact .....science can do just what the religious do is ......is present a group of ideas that are based by history , discovery , and therory to look like they have the answers as well ......but this is fueled by the same emotion that fuels the practioners of religion ..........there is no answer either way for sure until you are dead ....right ? ...... So I just choose to live my life in a simple manner for insurence purposes.....lol........I worry about being a good kind person ......I do my best to resist my instinct to judge others [ it is hard to fight it at times ] ......and I dont choose a side either way ........I figure ,if there is a God .....I am Ok ....cause I am a good guy and I didnt dispute his existance .......and if there isnt , it is lights out and maybe I will be remembered by some of the people that I effected in a positive manner during my life .......and that is fine too....so I choose not worry about who is right or who is wrong in this discusion .......it is a mute point to me .....just be a good person and you are covered either way .....lol ....I have no need for answers on this one ......it seems ridiculus to worry about something that I truely am incapible of understanding anyway .....lol [ blows me away that people die every day .......try to control and judge others .......over the need for faith and meaning........unbelievable !!!] I say we will all have the truth soon enough when we die anyway ..........so quit worrying it about who is right or wrong [ you cant really comprehend it anyway ]......we will all have the answers soon enough [ life happens in the blink of an eye]............just be good to your fellow man ,animals , and have respect for your environment ........then you will be more than ok no mater what the truth turns out to be [ if everyone shared my beliefs ,just think how nice the world would be .....scary ....everyone being kind and consiterate , not selfish or hateful , not judging or choosing sides.... it would be like the John Lennon song imagine ....hmmm kind of nice .huh?.....lol ...but the nature of man would never let it happen ..he needs to be right and have answers .....too bad....it is shame ]............Why does everyone need answers to this stuff ? I just dont get it ......is faith that nessary ?[this goes out to both sides ]Wouldnt having faith in yourself provide all the fullfillment and sprituality that one would need ,especially is were we were created in God's image ? Doesnt that make the most sense either way ?

 

[eek]

"theory" does not mean "guess"

no offense, but creationists need a new argument. Why can't a person believe in God and evolution.

"The theory of evolution explains how life on Earth has changed. In scientific terms, "theory" does not mean "guess" or "hunch" as it does in everyday usage. Scientific theories are explanations of natural phenomena built up logically from testable observations and hypotheses. Biological evolution is the best scientific explanation we have for the enormous range of observations about the living world".

"Scientists most often use the word "fact" to describe an observation. But scientists can also use fact to mean something that has been tested or observed so many times that there is no longer a compelling reason to keep testing or looking for examples. The occurrence of evolution in this sense is a fact. Scientists no longer question whether descent with modification occurred because the evidence supporting the idea is so strong".

Excerpt taken from:
**broken link removed**

Basic info:
**broken link removed**

 

[BULKING_N]

Iabadman, Thats a great post. To understnad ones creator is something that is beyond human perception. Religion was created by man.. God never did. And to say God, refer to this omnipotent power whatever your own belief compels you too, whether you call by whatever name you feel. And even if you dont believe in such, thats your choice. Many atheists have so chosen this way of life and live a good life.. Little do they know they are actually the spiritual ones by having taken this way of living that so many hypocritical ''religious'' people have diverted from.


Also, 'Discovering Life on Earth' is one of my fav books. Attenborough has done some very good video documentaries as you know. I am not ure if they are available on VHS or DVD ..All you get these days are Discovery type series.

 

[LEX]

Pete

The Human Genome Project (HGP) was one of the great feats of exploration in history -- an inward voyage of discovery rather than an outward exploration of the planet or the cosmos; an international research effort to sequence and map all of the genes - together known as the genome - of members of our species, Homo sapiens. Completed in April 2003, the HGP gave us the ability to, for the first time, to read nature's complete genetic blueprint for building a human being.

I belive your info was outdated.

Also I think you may have natural selection and the parameters of cell biology a little confused in your comparson of chimps and humans. The eveidence doesn't show we came from chimps but that we share a starting point if you look at the chart I posted earlier there is a main branch then a split where chimps and humans seperate. That point of split is where we were most common then they further up the branch you they more different we are.

I respect your belives however some of the science facts you stated are incorrect.

 

[pumpputnam]

no offense, but creationists need a new argument. Why can't a person believe in God and evolution.

"The theory of evolution explains how life on Earth has changed. In scientific terms, "theory" does not mean "guess" or "hunch" as it does in everyday usage. Scientific theories are explanations of natural phenomena built up logically from testable observations and hypotheses. Biological evolution is the best scientific explanation we have for the enormous range of observations about the living world".

"Scientists most often use the word "fact" to describe an observation. But scientists can also use fact to mean something that has been tested or observed so many times that there is no longer a compelling reason to keep testing or looking for examples. The occurrence of evolution in this sense is a fact. Scientists no longer question whether descent with modification occurred because the evidence supporting the idea is so strong".

Excerpt taken from:
**broken link removed**

Basic info:
**broken link removed**

I know this will get some feedback from a few. They can't be because they undermine scripture and the gospel message. While one can argue the bible one will have a hard time with Christ. Chirst(either a lair, lunatic, or Lord)Once Christ is viewed, then the other correlates... I will try to shed some other insight on a few other points I have seen made later.

1. "theistic evolution," wherein God supposedly directed the evoluntionary process of millions of years, or even just set it up and let it run, and

2. "progressive creation" where God supposedly intervened in the processes of death and struggle for survival to create millions of species at various times over millions of years.

 

[gooey]

gonna have to agree....

no offense, but creationists need a new argument. Why can't a person believe in God and evolution.

"The theory of evolution explains how life on Earth has changed. In scientific terms, "theory" does not mean "guess" or "hunch" as it does in everyday usage. Scientific theories are explanations of natural phenomena built up logically from testable observations and hypotheses. Biological evolution is the best scientific explanation we have for the enormous range of observations about the living world".

"Scientists most often use the word "fact" to describe an observation. But scientists can also use fact to mean something that has been tested or observed so many times that there is no longer a compelling reason to keep testing or looking for examples. The occurrence of evolution in this sense is a fact. Scientists no longer question whether descent with modification occurred because the evidence supporting the idea is so strong".

Excerpt taken from:
**broken link removed**




creationism is a "theory" also, but it doesnt have the scietific background that evolution has. Each theory has holes and questionable testing and background. I dont believe in coincidences their is a reason why chimpanzees or so close to our anatomy, physiology, and biology. I am not a participant in organized religion, but I am spiritual. Also I would say I am against teaching creationism in school in any nature, if one wants to learn of that theory the proper place would be a religious setting or to a school that is of their denomination. Lastly I believe these to issues of how life began for human is going to be an ongoing debate for as long as we continue to search for answers or till we know and explain how and why. But I feel it is terribly wrong to push, manipulate, insult people ot believe a certain way PERIOD. Thats part of the many negative issues we have going on in the world today.
goo

 

[pumpputnam]

There is always a source for a source. And Yes, there is MUCH science. I just don't have the time to set here a put it all up. Gooey, you are correct. This will always be an issue. That's why I recommend you fellows to view things differently. No, we can't and won't in this lifetime have all the answers, but we do have the answer we need in order to lived a fulfilled and purposeful life. What are we living for? Look for that answer... and you'll be heading in the right direction. But lastly, one can't be a ship without a destination. You have to have a course.

More food for thought: Not one proponent of evolutionary ethics has explained how an impersonal, amoral first cause through a nonmoral process has produced a moral basis of life, while at the same time denying and objective moral basis for good and evil.

 

[PHIL HERNON]

One way I look at things is

We know so much more about ourselves today then when we did when people wrote the bible.

 

[PHIL HERNON]

Question

Would you read a bodybuilding book written 2000 years ago?

 

[PHIL HERNON]

Pete, make me a believer

There is always a source for a source. And Yes, there is MUCH science. I just don't have the time to set here a put it all up. Gooey, you are correct. This will always be an issue. That's why I recommend you fellows to view things differently. No, we can't and won't in this lifetime have all the answers, but we do have the answer we need in order to lived a fulfilled and purposeful life. What are we living for? Look for that answer... and you'll be heading in the right direction. But lastly, one can't be a ship without a destination. You have to have a course.

More food for thought: Not one proponent of evolutionary ethics has explained how an impersonal, amoral first cause through a nonmoral process has produced a moral basis of life, while at the same time denying and objective moral basis for good and evil.

Show me the science.

 

[Crowler]

Would you read a bodybuilding book written 2000 years ago?

If it had a photo of Moses that looked as good as your avatar, YES, I would.


CROWLER

 

[PHIL HERNON]

HAhhaaha

If it had a photo of Moses that looked as good as your avatar, YES, I would.


CROWLER

That is MOSES.

 

[Kaiser]

Would you read a bodybuilding book written 2000 years ago?

This is a really good point IMO.

 

[pumpputnam]

Who here has actually set out to disprove the Bible or Christ? No one, right? The Bible is more than relevant on topics and "truths" that have application yesterday and today. I find so many people that argue against the Bible and God argue for the sake of arguing. Why is this? Could it be that one would have to acknowledge a devine creator and that would hold personal responsibility for one's actions. And if not, like I stated earlier, what are we living for? I have questioned things many times(I think that is good)... but I have sought after answers, unlike many people who would rather be wrong but argue not caring for substance to back up facts.
After everyone goes around in circles about the Bible then it comes down to one other issue "strongly related to the Bible" the common thread from the begining to the end. That's why I put the pressure on the man, Jesus Christ. Once again, either He was a liar, lunatic, or Lord. Look for your answer there then the rest of this comes into perspective. I would highly recommend reading, Lee Strobel's The Case For Faith.

 

[Kaiser]

Who here has actually set out to disprove the Bible or Christ? No one, right? The Bible is more than relevant on topics and "truths" that have application yesterday and today. I find so many people that argue against the Bible and God argue for the sake of arguing. Why is this? Could it be that one would have to acknowledge a devine creator and that would hold personal responsibility for one's actions. And if not, like I stated earlier, what are we living for? I have questioned things many times(I think that is good)... but I have sought after answers, unlike many people who would rather be wrong but argue not caring for substance to back up facts.
After everyone goes around in circles about the Bible then it comes down to one other issue "strongly related to the Bible" the common thread from the begining to the end. That's why I put the pressure on the man, Jesus Christ. Once again, either He was a lair, lunatic, or Lord. Look for your answer there then the rest of this comes into perspective. I would highly recommend reading, Lee Strobel's The Case For Faith.

Do you mean "Liar" or "Lair"? A lair really doesn't fit the statement I would assume, but i just want to get it straight.

 

[pumpputnam]

Do you mean "Liar" or "Lair"? A lair really doesn't fit the statement I would assume, but i just want to get it straight.

Yes, a LIAR. Sorry, I do my best to read for mistakes.

 

[PHIL HERNON]

What is wrong with this belief...

Who here has actually set out to disprove the Bible or Christ? No one, right? The Bible is more than relevant on topics and "truths" that have application yesterday and today. I find so many people that argue against the Bible and God argue for the sake of arguing. Why is this? Could it be that one would have to acknowledge a devine creator and that would hold personal responsibility for one's actions. And if not, like I stated earlier, what are we living for? I have questioned things many times(I think that is good)... but I have sought after answers, unlike many people who would rather be wrong but argue not caring for substance to back up facts.
After everyone goes around in circles about the Bible then it comes down to one other issue "strongly related to the Bible" the common thread from the begining to the end. That's why I put the pressure on the man, Jesus Christ. Once again, either He was a liar, lunatic, or Lord. Look for your answer there then the rest of this comes into perspective. I would highly recommend reading, Lee Strobel's The Case For Faith.

That Jesus was just a normal man like the rest of us? Many humans stretch the truth, wouldnt you say it is our nature? If you want to believe the Bible, that is your perrogative. I look at it as a great way to live your life with many applicable teachings such as love thy neighbor, honor thy father and mother, etc...but I dont think you can believe everything in the Bible, but thats just my opinion. Cant we live for each other, to comfort and educate each other? Why does there have to be this special place we all can go if we are good or believe, and if we dont then we wil burn in hell? That is not arguing for the sake, just questioning some very strange principles. Again, please show me science, not some book written 2000 years ago.

 

[Simone]

compliements of putnam... definatly shows the similarity and support the evolution ideas....

I can't stop laughing, V is that your baby picture you were so cute!!!! LOL.

 

[pumpputnam]

That Jesus was just a normal man like the rest of us? Many humans stretch the truth, wouldnt you say it is our nature? If you want to believe the Bible, that is your perrogative. I look at it as a great way to live your life with many applicable teachings such as love thy neighbor, honor thy father and mother, etc...but I dont think you can believe everything in the Bible, but thats just my opinion. Cant we live for each other, to comfort and educate each other? Why does there have to be this special place we all can go if we are good or believe, and if we dont then we wil burn in hell? That is not arguing for the sake, just questioning some very strange principles. Again, please show me science, not some book written 2000 years ago.

The problem with this thought, is that it doesn't answer the question, why were we created, if one does believe in a creator? You have to answer that question. What would be the point in believing in one another and educating each other? What purpose does this serve? It still doesn't answer the question, why were we created? Sure, human beings were created to be in fellowship, however, that fellowship was initially created for God to have a relationship with man first. It is human desire to seek relationships because it is a God given attribute to want to be in relation. One cannot find fulfillment in oneself or through mankind. Sure, we can enrich each others lives, but we cannot fulfill each others. . .once again, I ask the question, why were we created? In my opinion, try to disprove Jesus through "facts" then you may begin to find some answers. One thing is certain, Jesus was a man. Now ask yourself this, was Jesus a liar, lunatic, or Lord? This then points to truths and other answers unfold from that.

Science will either solidify or fall apart hinged upon Jesus saying who he was and that puts everything else into context.