Over Rated Big time.

[Alex A]

The real sad thing is that some guys are shutting them selves down permanantly.

I talked to a this guy who is really upset because he wants to have kids and he is shooting blanks..

He has been on gear for years with no breaks... and he really has nothing to show for it..

His bodyfat is still in the 20's and hes not showing any signs of hypertrophy. He just goes through the motion with no intensity and his diet is poor and inconsistant... Now they want to have kids and hes shut down...This is common actually... In his mind... he thought gear was the answer... The magic pill and the cure all.. but he was terribly wrong.

 

[gridlock]

The real sad thing is that some guys are shutting them selves down permanantly.

I talked to a this guy who is really upset because he wants to have kids and he is shooting blanks..

He has been on gear for years with no breaks... and he really has nothing to show for it..

His bodyfat is still in the 20's and hes not showing any signs of hypertrophy. He just goes through the motion with no intensity and his diet is poor and inconsistant... Now they want to have kids and hes shut down...This is common actually... In his mind... he thought gear was the answer... The magic pill and the cure all.. but he was terribly wrong.

I've said this before and i'll say it again, its the dumbshit kids that are getting more and more into this mindset. they start training for the wrong reasons, either to look big and not to be messed with or under the impression it will get them a bit more ass when they are out in the club. They stay in this mindset throughout their gym life. which ultimately leads to them thinking, " well gear is gonna make me get to the end result quicker and easier, and i can just sit back and reap the benefits "

The above is going to be the case more and more as time goes on as people just don't seem to get the idea that there is no other path to take to get your goals other than blood sweat tears and only then, if you are 100% ready for it, some chemical enhancement.

 

[forcedreps13]

What is even more of a travesty is the the supplement industry's way of "pimping out" pro-hormones. Before any pro-hormone users get offended , let me state that not all PH's are bad. However, I can attest from first hand experience and from other's , that the side effects from certain ones are just as bad if not worse than the use of "super supplements". Personally, I think it's ludricus for someone to start using gear right out of the gate. One should strive to reach their natural , genitic limits first and I don't think that someone that is in their early 20's that has been lifing since they were a teenager has acheived their natural growth potential. Hell, I'm 47 , using HRT and I'm still able to make gains, not so much because of the gear, but simply because I've learned how to train and diet smarter.

 

[massnup]

I tried this and it really showed me how much can be done with hard work and diet. Try just doing a test only cycle for 8-10wks while dieting. Even if you've run all kinds of stacks in the past, just try a low dose 4-500 mg/wk cycle of test and diet your ass off. Most people would be amazed at the results just being on a little test and good diet will do for them. Ok, NOW..... after your 8-10 wks of test only throw in some shit like winny or tren and watch how damn freaky you get!! This is exactly what I did this year, I had friends asking me what I was on and I just told them 400mg/wk prop and they were like "Dude, get the fuck outta here your lying" The sad part is I have a friend who has all the money he wants to blow on gear and GH. He is running 5iu's/day GH, primo, test, tren, winny, proviron, aromasyn, and I think 1-2 more compounds. I'm not even on half that right now and I look way further along with my prep than he does. So his excuse is there is something I'm taking I'm not telling him about. The reason he looks the way he does is because he eats too fucking much and I told him that. Alex is right on the money about this one, the gear is def overrated. Granted it will give you a harder look when dieting but its main purpose is to preserve muscle during fat loss. And to help grow in off season.

Did you keep dieting after the test only cycle or did you eat more to grow when you added the tren or winny?

 

[iprimate]

I've read a bro on another forum giving advice to a beginner & it was the same advice you gave. He also said that gear use by intermediate & advanced athletes was meant as an aid to break through plateaus

That's bullshit. The AAS are needed to merely maintain that LBM that is gained well beyond genetic potential. You can confirm this by looking at the shrinkage experiened by retired professional bodybuilders. There is no way in hell that Ronnie Coleman's testicles produce a sufficient quantity of testosterone to stimulate his ARs such that the muscle doesn't start to atrophy.

& that if a beginner used AAS from the beginning, then even if the newbie studied & applied proper training & diet techniques, that the beginner would NOT ever be able to reach his full potential because using gear from the beginning of his training would rob him of attaining the natural foundation that BBers who start gear later on have already attained naturally.

The opposite is true and you can refer to professionals that started early (eg. Lee Priest). There isn't even a theoretical reason to support the idea that starting AAS from day 1 will prevent you from reaching your full potential. There is a solid theoretical reason -- backed by numerous biographies -- to support the idea that you stand the greatest chance of reaching your physiological limit -- beyond your genetic limit -- if you start as soon as is safe.

I've never read anything scientific to support the bros advice to the beginner, but I've often wondered if there was any real sound science behind his claim or whether he just didn't like like the the idea of some newbie blasting through what took the rest of us so much time & effort to attain naturally?...

There is not one iota of evidence to support the bros advice to the beginner. It is brolore combined with self-righteousness. Moral superiority is hard to obtain in this area because of the illegality/criminality associated with AAS use and possession and even because of the stigma and the strong association between AAS and "cheating". I'm sure that many of us feel some shame and guilty because we were raised well by our parents and those that contributed to our upbringing and socialisation (teachers, pastors, priests, siblings etc.). This gives rise to the well-studied psychological phenomenon of cognitive dissonance. One way to resolve this dissonance is to create an artficial distinction between (a) those that started using AAS before they reached their genetic limit; and (b) those that started using AAS after they reached their genetic limit. This distinction enables you to assert how hard you worked before resorting to AAS (which implies a moral superiority) and how those in category (a) took the easy way out, and so on (which implies moral inferiority). In short, the artificial distinction permits feelings of moral superiority where none are justified.

I see that having developed a strong workout plan & diet strategy is at least equal to gear in terms of getting results, but I'm not sure how a beginner could actually be limiting his long-term gains by using AAS right from the beginning of his training regimen? Assuming that the beginner got his training & diet in order early on, I would've thought that everyone's full potential would be limited by genetics, not by when they start juicing...

Broscience hasn't elucidated a mechanism by which this limitation is supposed to occur.

AAS and peptides allow you to transcend your genetics (in certain areas).

If anyone here knows of any published scientific data showing whether the timing of when an athlete starts AAS has any real effect on their ability to reach their full genetic potential, I'd love to read it.

So would I.

It would be nice to have a properly supported answer for occassions when a newbie asks about the topic. Some of these kids at the gym are pretty good at researching stuff & I'd hate to pass on some unfounded bro-lore in an attempt to steer one away from the "dark side".

The only counsel in this area that is honest (and for which there is some evidence) is that young people should allow their development to complete before using supraphysiological doses of AAS. Using AAS before development has completed can prematurely halt vertical growth and it is unclear what effect supraphysiological levels of testosterone may do to a developing endocrine system and brain. There is some evidence that when the fetus develops under conditions of abnormally high testosterone then some problems or at least disruptions of the normal trajectory can occur[1][2][3][4][5][6]. Admittedly, the evidence concerns fetuses (human and non-human) rather than teenagers but given that development is still occuring in teenagers it is reasonable to infer some developmental disruption as a result of using supraphysiological amounts of AAS.

 

[iprimate]

THAT MIGHT BE TRUE, BUT WERE YOU HEALTHY AND PRODUCTIVE IN THAT TIME?

I don't understand your question nor your quoting style.

 

[iprimate]

Granfalloon

I surely was looking to stir up a good debate here when i posted this and surely wasn't attacking anyone at all..

I don't think you are attacking anyone but your posts in this thread and those of your supportive bros drip with smarminess and snideness.

Kurt Vonnegut invented the idea of a granfalloon which he defined as a "a proud and meaningless association of human beings". It looks like you are forming a granfalloon of AAS users that started using after some arbitrary period of time of weight training without the aid of AAS.

I'm guessing that your total weekly AAS intake is measured in grams as is that of your supportive bros. Despite this you are able to muster the self-righteousness that it takes to wave a disapproving finger at others.

The distinction you are making -- which defines membership of your granfalloon -- is entirely artificial, lacking even broscientific justification. It is shamelessly arbitrary -- **broken link removed**.

Also, the stark reality is that neither Joe Sixpack nor the law cares whether you started using AAS from day one or after you exhausted your genetic/natural potential. We are all in the same category i.e. cheats, drug users, meat heads, somatic narcissists, gorillas etc. The granfalloon has significance only to its members. Keep that in mind when you next announce the constitutive principles of your granfalloon.

but what am i going to do?

Try and be less parochial and understand that not everyone shares your goals, circumstances or your aspirations. AAS users are varied, they aren't all competitive bodybuilders. AAS users include recreational lifters (probably the backbone of the AAS market), powerlifters, track and field athletes, wrestlers (real and theatric), boxers, MMA fighters, strongman competitors (good luck B~RAD), HIV/AIDS patients, cyclists, football/rugby/gridiron players, triathletes, circus performers, actors, male models, male strippers, male prostitutes...

There is no reason for a male that has stopped growing (i.e. over 21 yo) to not use AAS if using AAS will either enable him to achieve his goal or enable him to achieve his goal sooner. Your arbitrary time interval is exactly that arbitrary and even the potential members of your granfalloon can't agree on how long this arbitrary interval should be.

You can have a great physique with good diet, discipline and training hard ..... minus the gear.

But you cant have a good physique with Gear only

We all know this. You forgot to add that you can have a better physique sooner with AAS and peptides if you get all the factors right.

If you choose to respond to this please do so without invoking the first axiom of bro' epistemology:

Axiom #1: The ultimate determinant of the truth of a proposition P is your LBM, 1RM (for squat, bench press and/or deadlift) and/or the number of shows you have won relative to the person arguing the negation of P.

 

[b-boy]

Axiom #1: The ulimate determinant of the truth of a proposition P is your LBM, 1RM (for squat, bench press and/or deadlift) and/or the number of shows you have won relative to the person arguing the negation of P.

I gotta say i have enjoyed reading your post, its was different so to speak

i like to use my own ghetto (very ghetto) broscience which states - you keep doing what the fuck you do as i could give a rats fat fuck ass less and i will continue to do what i do, and i will look for you in the rear view mirror!

take note iprimate my broscience was not directed at you in any form or fashion but to pretty much everyone in general no matter what you believe regarding AAS because truly at the end of the day GENETICS will be the determining factor thats why im a HUGE believer in selective breeding!

 

[HeavyHands]

I gotta say i have enjoyed reading your post, its was different so to speak

i like to use my own ghetto (very ghetto) broscience which states - you keep doing what the fuck you do as i could give a rats fat fuck ass less and i will continue to do what i do, and i will look for you in the rear view mirror!

take note iprimate my broscience was not directed at you in any form or fashion but to pretty much everyone in general no matter what you believe regarding AAS because truly at the end of the day GENETICS will be the determining factor thats why im a HUGE believer in selective breeding!

Ok two things...

First: I am also enjoying reading iprimate's posts. An intuitive approach for sure...

Secondly, b-boy - I lol'ed at the part of your post I bolded because I initially read it as "because truly at the end of the day GENETICS will be the determining factor thats why im HUGE"

... GOT THAT RIGHT

 

[h8tr3d]

I


Try and be less parochial and understand that not everyone shares your goals, circumstances or your aspirations.

Good point. That pretty much sums it up!

 

[GymDudeVA]

I've said this before and i'll say it again, its the dumbshit kids that are getting more and more into this mindset. they start training for the wrong reasons, either to look big and not to be messed with or under the impression it will get them a bit more ass when they are out in the club.

I have many friends with a similar mindset, but in this case they are 30- and 40-something gay males [please do not take this thread to places it does not belong]. They ask me advice, want to do a cycle with me, train with me, etc. I say ok, if you are serious, and you have to work hard, be consistent over time, etc. In almost every damn case, after a couple of weeks, they stop, saying they are too busy with work, etc. They stop and start like this over and over, then wonder why I look like a bodybuilder and they don't.

 

[ICU11b]

- you keep doing what the fuck you do as i could give a rats fat fuck ass less and i will continue to do what i do,
QUOTE]

Thats the quote I relate to. To each his own...

 

[Newman]

That's bullshit. The AAS are needed to merely maintain that LBM that is gained well beyond genetic potential. You can confirm this by looking at the shrinkage experiened by retired professional bodybuilders. There is no way in hell that Ronnie Coleman's testicles produce a sufficient quantity of testosterone to stimulate his ARs such that the muscle doesn't start to atrophy.



The opposite is true and you can refer to professionals that started early (eg. Lee Priest). There isn't even a theoretical reason to support the idea that starting AAS from day 1 will prevent you from reaching your full potential. There is a solid theoretical reason -- backed by numerous biographies -- to support the idea that you stand the greatest chance of reaching your physiological limit -- beyond your genetic limit -- if you start as soon as is safe.



There is not one iota of evidence to support the bros advice to the beginner. It is brolore combined with self-righteousness. Moral superiority is hard to obtain in this area because of the illegality/criminality associated with AAS use and possession and even because of the stigma and the strong association between AAS and "cheating". I'm sure that many of us feel some shame and guilty because we were raised well by our parents and those that contributed to our upbringing and socialisation (teachers, pastors, priests, siblings etc.). This gives rise to the well-studied psychological phenomenon of cognitive dissonance. One way to resolve this dissonance is to create an artficial distinction between (a) those that started using AAS before they reached their genetic limit; and (b) those that started using AAS after they reached their genetic limit. This distinction enables you to assert how hard you worked before resorting to AAS (which implies a moral superiority) and how those in category (a) took the easy way out, and so on (which implies moral inferiority). In short, the artificial distinction permits feelings of moral superiority where none are justified.



Broscience hasn't elucidated a mechanism by which this limitation is supposed to occur.

AAS and peptides allow you to transcend your genetics (in certain areas).



So would I.



The only counsel in this area that is honest (and for which there is some evidence) is that young people should allow their development to complete before using supraphysiological doses of AAS. Using AAS before development has completed can prematurely halt vertical growth and it is unclear what effect supraphysiological levels of testosterone may do to a developing endocrine system and brain. There is some evidence that when the fetus develops under conditions of abnormally high testosterone then some problems or at least disruptions of the normal trajectory can occur[1][2][3][4][5][6]. Admittedly, the evidence concerns fetuses (human and non-human) rather than teenagers but given that development is still occuring in teenagers it is reasonable to infer some developmental disruption as a result of using supraphysiological amounts of AAS.

What will we call our new brotherhood?

Duchaines Disciples?

It looks like we think alike brutha!

BTW, cognative dissonance is 4 liars, cowards & weaklings, but then you already knew that...

I'll have to remember that "1st axiom of brolore" thing. Very good...

 

[iprimate]

I'll have to remember that "1st axiom of brolore" thing. Very good...

It's the first axiom of bro' epistemology (i.e. philosophical theory of knowledge) or brostemology for short. Brostemology is distinct from but related to broscience. Broscience has deep foundations in brostemology. Brolore is a lesser form of broscience that dispenses with even the wafer thin veneer of scientific credibility. Brolore is more accessible, more popular and broad. Brolore is to broscience as popular culture is to high art. An exemplar of brolore is Mick Hart's series of pamphlets on AAS use. An exemplar of broscience is the writings of the guy that writes under the pseudonym of "Author L. Rea". Both Mick Hart and Author L. Rea invoke the first axiom of brostemology repeatedly in their writings.

I hope this primer on matters bro' is useful to you.

 

[iprimate]

i like to use my own ghetto (very ghetto) broscience

I wouldn't classify your stuff as broscience its more brolore. Your thinking is replete with the post hoc fallacy and it could even be classed as superstitious so I think it's firmly in the brolore camp.

which states - you keep doing what the fuck you do as i could give a rats fat fuck ass less and i will continue to do what i do, and i will look for you in the rear view mirror!

Axiom #1 of brostemology is embedded in the above.

take note iprimate my broscience was not directed at you in any form or fashion but to pretty much everyone in general no matter what you believe regarding AAS because truly at the end of the day GENETICS will be the determining factor thats why im a HUGE believer in selective breeding!

That's a long sentence.

I don't dispute the signifcance of genetics. However, asserting the above renders most of your posts on this forum moot i.e. of no practical relevance or significance. It was only a few days ago that you were getting excited about the incline press and drawing all manner of fanciful conclusions. But if it is all about genetics then why bother with all the unfalsifiable brolore such as your stuff on the incline press?

Also, humans already practice "selective breeding" when they choose with whom they reproduce. Every woman that has ever bore a child -- that wasn't the result of rape -- has practised "selective breeding". This is called sexual selection and it is a part of standard Darwinian evolution by natural selection.

 

[notsobig32]

I gotta say i have enjoyed reading your post, its was different so to speak

i like to use my own ghetto (very ghetto) broscience which states - you keep doing what the fuck you do as i could give a rats fat fuck ass less and i will continue to do what i do, and i will look for you in the rear view mirror!

take note iprimate my broscience was not directed at you in any form or fashion but to pretty much everyone in general no matter what you believe regarding AAS because truly at the end of the day GENETICS will be the determining factor thats why im a HUGE believer in selective breeding!

LMAO!

 

[isoc]

It seems to me that part of the problem is that there are many people using high doses and mulitple compounds and every type of compound under the sun who are not competitive, just doing it to look good/feel better about themselves. That is a fine reason to use, but not to abuse. Why run cycles that competitors would use when you just want to look better/be stronger, etc. For those of us in that category (myself included), milder cycles, much simpler will definitely do the job.

 

[chris250]

I gotta say i have enjoyed reading your post, its was different so to speak

i like to use my own ghetto (very ghetto) broscience which states - you keep doing what the fuck you do as i could give a rats fat fuck ass less and i will continue to do what i do, and i will look for you in the rear view mirror!

take note iprimate my broscience was not directed at you in any form or fashion but to pretty much everyone in general no matter what you believe regarding AAS because truly at the end of the day GENETICS will be the determining factor thats why im a HUGE believer in selective breeding!

B-Boy,

You kill me with these post like this...LOL !!!

 

[Johnny Smiles]

let me guess...

It's the first axiom of bro' epistemology (i.e. philosophical theory of knowledge) or brostemology for short. Brostemology is distinct from but related to broscience. Broscience has deep foundations in brostemology. Brolore is a lesser form of broscience that dispenses with even the wafer thin veneer of scientific credibility. Brolore is more accessible, more popular and broad. Brolore is to broscience as popular culture is to high art. An exemplar of brolore is Mick Hart's series of pamphlets on AAS use. An exemplar of broscience is the writings of the guy that writes under the pseudonym of "Author L. Rea". Both Mick Hart and Author L. Rea invoke the first axiom of brostemology repeatedly in their writings.

I hope this primer on matters bro' is useful to you.

you think you're pretty smart? what a waste of time you spent on here with utter bullshit. go eat some d bol. move on along now... -JS

 

[witefall]

If I remember correctly, I think research has shown that you can look good by taking aas and without training, or at least gain significant muscle and lose fat over a short period of time.

I seem to remember a study showing a group of lifters/males given 650mg Test a week for 20 weeks and NOT allowed to train during those 20 weeks.

I think the average gain in LBM was around 17 pounds, and the average fat loss was around 3 pounds.

Now I'll have to go find the study. But I think I'm remembering it correctly.

It's human nature to want to think otherwise, but the aas contribute way more to our success than we give it credit.