PRE-Workout Performance Enhancing Supp. Combinations (KM)

[TooPowerful4u]

Looking for Aesop and KM here, as we have touched on the subject many times. All others with knowledge beyond "it worked for me" or "i was told to do this and liked it" are welcome to comment as well.... I feel it is sometimes helpful to analyze something and possibly ponder ways to enhance it as a way to learn....

KM listed this preworkout stack

pre workout taurine, nac, alcar, potassium citrate, carnosine, glycerine, bcaa's and eaa's with 60g vitargo/creatine

Now lets start with that. As i see it, the purpose of the stack is to enhance ATP production, glycogen storage/usage, and prolong workout performance though antioxidants and lactic acid buffers'. I know hes done his research, likes to think, and has reasoning behind everything he does. With that, here is a few questions....

What id like to know is at what dose are these taken and how soon preworkout? I remember reading that carnosine needs to be taken at least 45minutes preworkout to elicit full effects. Are these all mixed into one big shake?

I am assuming the insulin spike from the vitargo is your shuttling agent, but does anybody feel it would be beneficial to use any other insulin mimetics to enhance uptake of these?

How do you think adding some neural stimulants to the formula would effect it? They certainly are helpful at boosting workout performance mentally! Anyone who has used a potent neural stim formula can attest to this. PEA, Tyrosine, Taurine, caffein, and ESPECIALLY the patent pending formula here at Gaspari for B-PEA (which is rapidly metabolized by MAO enzymes) combined with MAOI's. By the way, any VETS that want to try this PM me and il get some out to you ASAP to try its rediculous (sorry dont got enough to go round to all board members, only vets this time).

How about adding caffein? Numerous studies show that caffein has been proven to enhance workout performance as well as strength. It also has added neural stim effects. Could this addition hinder absorption or the effectivness of the combination above?

 

[bulldog21]

Half a serving of cell tech hardcore
two tablespoons of glycerol
some bcaa's
some glutamine
gurana (caffine)


Sip it throught my workout......

PWO same thing but I add in
Taurine
creatine mono

 

[bulldog21]

the L carnosine I save and use pre morning cardio when getting ready for shows and I have 5gr of BCAA's along with some yohimbe, caffine and if I am really struggling I will take in some ephidrine and baby aspriin....

 

[oldfella]

I won't go into too much detail except to say, if you have not tried liquid beef Aminos pre-workout you are missing out in a big way. This stuff rocks. Throw away Muscletech and others and use these. Unbelieveable.

 

[TooPowerful4u]

Half a serving of cell tech hardcore
two tablespoons of glycerol
some bcaa's
some glutamine
gurana (caffine)


Sip it throught my workout......

PWO same thing but I add in
Taurine
creatine mono

We all know you know ur shit and your physique shows it.... but this thread i want to be about WHY you take whatever you take. Which ingredients in the formuls's do you feel are optimal and why?

 

[TooPowerful4u]

I won't go into too much detail except to say, if you have not tried liquid beef Aminos pre-workout you are missing out in a big way. This stuff rocks. Throw away Muscletech and others and use these. Unbelieveable.

Amino's are great preworkout for an anabolic environment and protein synthesis, but what does it do to boost performance? Is that ALL you take preworkout?

 

[bulldog21]

We all know you know ur shit and your physique shows it.... but this thread i want to be about WHY you take whatever you take. Which ingredients in the formuls's do you feel are optimal and why?

Well I have not done ultra research on it but have gone the easy short way in my reseach and have just listend to waht other guys have said about stuff and done SOME research on my own.....If I get some of this wrong I apologize

With glutamine I do not take it for its rebuilding and replenishing of amino acids but more for its immune boosting as your immune system breaks down with hard training...

BCAA's which mainly the ration of consists of L-Leucine which in studies have shown to be the only amino acid that helps create an anabolic environment

Benefits of Taurine: Increase in physical endurance and reaction speed of physical processes. Taurine as well increases mental concentration and alertness and can improve your overall feeling of well being. A reduction in blood pressure and strengthening of heart muscle are also apparent. Taurine as well, enhances your water balance and nutrient uptake in muscles, hence taurine’s amazing abilities in cell-volumizing.

 

[oldfella]

Amino's are great preworkout for an anabolic environment and protein synthesis, but what does it do to boost performance? Is that ALL you take preworkout?

Yes it is. I have found that the performance boost takes place almost instantaneously. Within ten to fifteen minutes. You will notice better mental focus, a desire to lift heavier (part of the mindset), better pumps, strength increases and more stamina. I have trialed these some time back on the average gym guy. You know the ones, come in three times a week, lift hard and reasonably intense. medium build and strong for their size. All reported the same things I have listed here. I wanted to make sure it was not just me getting a placebo effect. I never told any of them what to expect. One of them was actually a sixty year old gym rat, in good shape and strong for his age. he said he upped all his lifts for that session above the norm. So I knew it was the real thing. Each and every one of them told me when they were done, that nothing ever gave them a hit like that. As subtle as a sledgehammer was the way one put it! Now if I could only get this next shipment out of customs here.............Been sitting in customs clearing for a fucking week. I ahve no idea why they are crawling all over this shit. I have had them here before! But anyway this stuff works big time. All I do is mix with some water and put it down just before training. I drink about three and a half liters of water when I train and that's all I use.

 

[aesop]

TP4,

I don't recommend taurine pre workout. morning and postwo is best, in some taurine can lead to decreased power output when taken pre event.

I wouldn't recommend the vitargo either, insulin spikes pre workout can lead to blood sugar crash during. iyou can use carbs and EAA drink during to prevent this, but if you want to get the most from naturally made workout hormones I would recomend not drinking anything that elevates Blood glucose unless you are going through an intense grueling event which necessitates the use of a carb drink. Most Bbers don't train like this very often you can even make it through the most serious of leg days drinking only a glycine or eaa drink with no carbs.


Carnosine is an excellent buffer if want/need more buffering than carnosine can provide, because if you take too much you get crazy pumps and can't workout, add 3-5 grms of potassium citrate only on crazy intense days.

Yeah should be done 30 minutes pre workout atleast!

Of course you want a stimulant. KM just didn't list what he uses regarding that but he was using Theophylline and theobromine last I know. Which work really well.

I have been meaning to try PEA I just haven't gotten around to getting any selegine citrate. I will have to try it out. From what I have read about 200 mg of pea with an maob is good. let me know if I should do something different.

My favorite pre workout stims:
1mg nicotine (from nicotine gum popped in at the start of the workout)
100 theophylline
100 mg caffeine
Which are mixed in with the pre workout drink.

Nicotine is an awesome stimulant. Great neural effects as well as I have found increased power when used with the caffeine and theophylline.

 

[edge250]

oldfart, oops i mean fella. try drinking the aminos during training i used them this way and loved it, getting back on them very soon to help continue shedding fat.

my pre-workout supplement currently is lipton sun tea. test, nutrition, and sleep is good enough to me, i dont like to complicate things any longer, if i need to think about something i let phil do it for me as i figure he has already been there done that.

 

[sammarbella]

I think the stomach must be empty (or semi-empty) right before a workout.

Some BCAA's (even with added CEE) and 2 black coffee are fine to boost your workout but fancy muscletech supps or other only disturb.

Try to squat heavy with your stomach full of vitargo+whey+amino+coffee+creatine+......

Creatine and cafeine at the same time are not the best friends.

Taurine and his lower BP (vasodilatation) effect during a workout is not a good idea: you are lowering blood nutrient transport.

So timing is important in here.

For me the job (Glycogen storage) must be done right from the breakfast, if diet is ok pre-workout supps have very little impact.

PWO is a VERY different story.

 

[TooPowerful4u]

TP4,
I have been meaning to try PEA I just haven't gotten around to getting any selegine citrate. I will have to try it out. From what I have read about 200 mg of pea with an maob is good. let me know if I should do something different.

go to gasparinutrition.com. Click on products, then cytolean. After you click cytolean, look under where you clicked on it and read the chemical corner. It was written by Bruce Kneller. It explains it all. He nailed this one perfect, its sold out EVERYWHERE, even in our warehouse. We cant supply it fast enough. The neural stim/euphoric effects are amazing. Id love to send you some samples if you want PM me your address.

 

[TooPowerful4u]

I think the stomach must be empty (or semi-empty) right before a workout.

Some BCAA's (even with added CEE) and 2 black coffee are fine to boost your workout but fancy muscletech supps or other only disturb.

Try to squat heavy with your stomach full of vitargo+whey+amino+coffee+creatine+......

Creatine and cafeine at the same time are not the best friends.

Taurine and his lower BP (vasodilatation) effect during a workout is not a good idea: you are lowering blood nutrient transport.

So timing is important in here.

For me the job (Glycogen storage) must be done right from the breakfast, if diet is ok pre-workout supps have very little impact.

PWO is a VERY different story.

Good post. In order for creatine to be effective your muscles must be saturated, so preworkout is not MANDATORY. Taking caffein will boost workout performance, and i dont think it will hinder creatine if not taken at the same time.

About the glycogen storage... you are probably very right. Never though of it like that (sometimes the simplest answer slips right by you). If you have a carb loaded breakfast and lunch (also with proper EFA's) you should be fully loaded by the time your workout comes around. This definatly changes my view on preworkout supps. As aesop said, you dont want a blood sugar crash anyway.

Edge, does test really boost workout performance if taken preworkout? Aggression?

 

[aesop]

I think the stomach must be empty (or semi-empty) right before a workout.

Some BCAA's (even with added CEE) and 2 black coffee are fine to boost your workout but fancy muscletech supps or other only disturb.

Try to squat heavy with your stomach full of vitargo+whey+amino+coffee+creatine+......

Creatine and cafeine at the same time are not the best friends.

Taurine and his lower BP (vasodilatation) effect during a workout is not a good idea: you are lowering blood nutrient transport.

So timing is important in here.

For me the job (Glycogen storage) must be done right from the breakfast, if diet is ok pre-workout supps have very little impact.

PWO is a VERY different story.

There is no issue taking creatine and caffeine together.

Taurine may lower bp at rest in some people but you aren't working out if your blood pressure is lowered by taurine.

Systolic/diastolic bp increase significantly during resistance training. Unless you are taking a beta blocker your bp will go up to normal exercise values, no matter what supps you are taking.

Vasodialation is an essential part of working out. That is how your body directs blood to active muscles, vasadialation in active muscles and vasoconstriction of non active muscle and the renal, splanchic, and gi regions.

 

[oldfella]

oldfart, oops i mean fella. try drinking the aminos during training i used them this way and loved it, getting back on them very soon to help continue shedding fat.

my pre-workout supplement currently is lipton sun tea. test, nutrition, and sleep is good enough to me, i dont like to complicate things any longer, if i need to think about something i let phil do it for me as i figure he has already been there done that.

Yea i know what you mean. I have done that a few times and wow is all I can say. Keeps the intensity going all the way through. Awesome stuff this!!

 

[km2000]

good topic.....

asoep turned me onto to most of these supps, but i have done a fair amount of research on them as well....

the vitargo i take 1 scoop pre workout the reason isnt really glycogen loading, i mix most of the supps listed and the vitargo more for taste, (this shit taste like hell if you dont flavor it with something) in a shaker cup and down em 30-45min pre workout...... i like to think the vitargo has a pull in the stomach and the supps will be pulled into the sm intestine faster, i dont know if this is the case or not.....

like asoep said the stims i use pre workout are the theophenalline and theobromine, i also use some chocomine on occasion.... these are good stims s the dont fuck with the blood sugar... i am very sesative to stimulants, but these offer a smooth feeling and no jitters, makes you feel alert without wanting to sprint a mile....

i have been using the taurine pre and post workout....

the most noticable effect i have seen from doing this is lack of lactic acid build up... i can train legs like there is no tommorow with m inimal pain at the end of a set of 25reps for squats... also increased recovery time as well....

another good supp is the idebenone, this will increase your recovery dramatically especially taken with coq10(not to mention the amazing anti ox benifits)... i will do 300mg a day slpit up in 3 100mg doses a day... definatly good stuff....



i have been using the LBA's as of late also... i do like them... if i traein 2x in a day i will use 5-6 tbsps pre and post workout... i take them mainly for the convience.....

aseop is the man to talk to about the majority of this as he has intimate knowledge of it and a lot of other performance related topics as well... some folks may say this is too complicated and not worth the time and money, but i will assure you it is! i am a skeptical persona as well, but you will not be able to deny the effects of what these will do for you during a workout and further down the road... some of the supps have great anti oxidant benifits that would far outweigh the performance benifits if you weighed them out...

 

[sammarbella]

There is no issue taking creatine and caffeine together.

Take a look at this:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8929583&dopt=Abstract

Caffeine counteracts the ergogenic action of muscle creatine loading.

Vandenberghe K, Gillis N, Van Leemputte M, Van Hecke P, Vanstapel F, Hespel P.

Faculty of Physical Education and Physiotherapy, Department of Kinesiology, Katholieke Universiteit Leuven, Belgium.

This study aimed to compare the effects of oral creatine (Cr) supplementation with creatine supplementation in combination with caffeine (Cr+C) on muscle phosphocreatine (PCr) level and performance in healthy male volunteers (n = 9). Before and after 6 days of placebo, Cr (0.5 g x kg-1 x day-1), or Cr (0.5 g x kg-1 x day-1) + C (5 mg x kg-1 x day-1) supplementation, 31P-nuclear magnetic resonance spectroscopy of the gastrocnemius muscle and a maximal intermittent exercise fatigue test of the knee extensors on an isokinetic dynamometer were performed. The exercise consisted of three consecutive maximal isometric contractions and three interval series of 90, 80, and 50 maximal voluntary contractions performed with a rest interval of 2 min between the series. Muscle ATP concentration remained constant over the three experimental conditions. Cr and Cr+C increased (P < 0.05) muscle PCr concentration by 4-6%. Dynamic torque production, however, was increased by 10-23% (P < 0.05) by Cr but was not changed by Cr+C. Torque improvement during Cr was most prominent immediately after the 2-min rest between the exercise bouts. The data show that Cr supplementation elevates muscle PCr concentration and markedly improves performance during intense intermittent exercise. This ergogenic effect, however, is completely eliminated by caffeine intake.

 

[Mr_Magoo]

bout an hour b4 i lift...
beta-alanine
creatine
bcaa's
fat burner stimulat type of thing
citruline malate
acetly l carnitine

1/2 hour into my workout i like to use vitargo with bcaa's and 20 grams of whey taken about 20 min after the vitargo i seperate the drink bc of possible blood sugar issues and bc insulin can antagonize the fat burner, during workout when adrenaline is high it can be easily taken up by the muscles passively

 

[full_belly]

Alanine pre workout

Animal over at chemicalanarchy showed a couple studies shjowing that yes leucine post workout will signal anabolism, but wont do much pre workout, but that alanine pre workout will stop catrabolism of amino's particularly leucine.

Aesop do you recall this????

 

[TooPowerful4u]

Who exactly is animal? I see his name thrown around a lot here and there. Where can i find his articles and posts?