• All new members please introduce your self here and welcome to the board:
    http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259
Buy Needles And Syringes With No Prescription
M4B Store Banner
intex
Riptropin Store banner
Generation X Bodybuilding Forum
Buy Needles And Syringes With No Prescription
Buy Needles And Syringes With No Prescription
Mysupps Store Banner
IP Gear Store Banner
PM-Ace-Labs
Ganabol Store Banner
Spend $100 and get bonus needles free at sterile syringes
Professional Muscle Store open now
sunrise2
PHARMAHGH1
kinglab
ganabol2
Professional Muscle Store open now
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
azteca
granabolic1
napsgear-210x65
esquel
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
advertise1
UGFREAK-banner-PM
advertise1
YMSApril21065
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
advertise1
tjk
advertise1
mega-banner2
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store

PWO : Your reasons and Logic? : Carry on from JT's thread

If that is true, explain why a bodybuilder appears "flat" during the low carb phase of a diet? This is also well known to happen. Iv personally taken pictured after 4 days low carb, and 2 days high carb. Night and day difference. If stores are restored within 66hrs regardless of carb intake, why does this happen? You cannot dispute that it DOES happen...

Ok, this is because glycogen attracts water as you know. The effect you get\see is water binding and being attracted to the glycogen and hence swelling the muscle cells. It by no means means that you are getting bigger in terms of muscle tissue. Its similar to the "pump", for many years...even up till 90's we all though that we MUST get the pump....in fact to this day many people still think this...

You need to understand that the 66h rule was done using multi testing including muscle biopsy..its pretty much a no brainer in terms of this being the case......see the body is heck of a lot smarter then ANYONE on here thinks...it will hold onto and release and\or make carbs when it see's fit...and this has been proved time and time again...but you wont DARE see any supplement company quote this...or put some bucks up to research it further....

Try it youself.....thats all I can say buddy. Get into the metabolic shift...and then understand that you will be "flat" but watch your gains.....I speak with a little arrogance on this part as Ive seen it work......with shocking reaction from people.....

Jayuk
 
TP4U I believe it does happen, but after a week or 2 by eating more fats, like olive oil , almonds, fish oils etc...That flatness goes away somewhat as your body relies on fats for fuel etc...I believe i get more full again after awhile especially if i eat a big beef meal with good fats on the side over and above the animal fats...Also when you do take in the smallest amnts of carbs, you blow up quick and easier than if you stayed on low carbs and add extra carbs.
This is when i am calorie restricted and trying to lean up..
When im bulking i eat a bit more carbs early in the day and post workout...
This winter i took in a tonne of carbs, like 5-700 per day and wont do that again.
Im back at a 32-33 inch waist from a 38-39 inch waist this winter, and im still 245 lbs or more and am still losing bodyfat while maintaing good energy in the gym..
I dont think carbs are fatal...I believe they are just used way to much and promoted to much as well..
I am only going by how my body and energy feels..
 
Now would all 45 grams of carbs be delivered to replenish the glycogen stores lost or would i need to take in more than 45 grams of carbs if it is in fruit form to be sure all of it is utilized and not lost along the way so to speak, (sorry im a layman).

It would be Liver stores and Muscle Glycogen stores....45g is fine if you had started the protocol on a totally "full" state, ie muscle and liver glycogen full topped up...


secondly if we use 25 percent of our stores at say 500 grams, thats 125 grams we have used and we ar replacing it with around 50, is that to keep you using fats as fuel and just supplementing the glycogen while remaining a bit depleted??

Exactly...see we know that Glycog and the higher Protein will continue to provde carbs....and so will also deal with insulin thats required...then PWO at a low value just starts the process of refeeding..but dont take that 25% as gospel..its demand driven

Also do you believe in restoring your glycogen levels by refeeding once or twice per week, or at all??
Thanks for your insight..i learn a tonne here..

Yes, a refeed is extremely helpful and recommended (it shocks the body and also always to upregulate key hormonal responses)....anything from every 5-15 days...depening on how well your body has accustomed itself to the metabolic shift....

Jayuk
 
Awesome thanks again bro....
I appreciate your input big time...
 
Ok, this is because glycogen attracts water as you know. The effect you get\see is water binding and being attracted to the glycogen and hence swelling the muscle cells. It by no means means that you are getting bigger in terms of muscle tissue. Its similar to the "pump", for many years...even up till 90's we all though that we MUST get the pump....in fact to this day many people still think this...

You need to understand that the 66h rule was done using multi testing including muscle biopsy..its pretty much a no brainer in terms of this being the case......see the body is heck of a lot smarter then ANYONE on here thinks...it will hold onto and release and\or make carbs when it see's fit...and this has been proved time and time again...but you wont DARE see any supplement company quote this...or put some bucks up to research it further....

Try it youself.....thats all I can say buddy. Get into the metabolic shift...and then understand that you will be "flat" but watch your gains.....I speak with a little arrogance on this part as Ive seen it work......with shocking reaction from people.....

Jayuk

i agree with ya on the pump being a lot of b.s. for the most part... but i have seen some research that states something to the effect that haveing the body ultra hydreted or having the muscle well hydrated is a definate plus when anabolism is the goal...

the second problem i se with the 66hr rule is this... most of us train lets say 4-6 days a week, if i am training mon-fri and taxing my glycogen stores i will be in a never ending race to get my glycogen stores back up... so if my workouts are 24hrs apart, and let say in that time i am only seeing 30% of my glucogen stores being replinished, then the way i see it i am digging deeper the next workout thus making the glycogen stores diminish even further... does that make sense?
 
the second problem i se with the 66hr rule is this... most of us train lets say 4-6 days a week, if i am training mon-fri and taxing my glycogen stores i will be in a never ending race to get my glycogen stores back up... so if my workouts are 24hrs apart, and let say in that time i am only seeing 30% of my glucogen stores being replinished, then the way i see it i am digging deeper the next workout thus making the glycogen stores diminish even further... does that make sense?

BANG! You got it buddy! We all train minimum of 3 days a work, some more! So what to do?...This is exactly the problem I saw...

So what we do is say top up by the said amount \ demand driven amount and then do a refeed every 5-15 days following a workout.....BUT.....and this is a BIG but....remember that we must NOT only think CONSUMED carbs...we must also think GlycoG carbs from Protein consumption....thats where the magic happens!......

Jayuk
 
Great info in this thread and I believe that you are correct in saying that carb needs post are based on glyco that need be replenished but I would also like to add (as I'm sure MOST of us know) that the type of carbs used and the timing is just as important as the amount. If you want to see your workouts change for the better follow your post shake about sixty minutes later with crystalline fructose to ensure that liver glycogen has been restored. Muscle Glycogen is very important but many don't understand that liver glycogen is our long term energy stores. No matter what level athlete you are your workouts will change remarkably with the addition of crystalline fructose 1-2xperday.
 
the second problem i se with the 66hr rule is this... most of us train lets say 4-6 days a week, if i am training mon-fri and taxing my glycogen stores i will be in a never ending race to get my glycogen stores back up... so if my workouts are 24hrs apart, and let say in that time i am only seeing 30% of my glucogen stores being replinished, then the way i see it i am digging deeper the next workout thus making the glycogen stores diminish even further... does that make sense?

Every time you fucker lol. I was going to say exactly what you just said in your second paragraph!

You will stay flat if you are on a calorie restricted diet and training 5-6 days a week balls to the wall, not to mention cardio anywhere from 2-5 times per week... unless you introduce sufficient carbs. No amount of GlucoG is going to keep up with that demand.


BANG! You got it buddy! We all train minimum of 3 days a work, some more! So what to do?...This is exactly the problem I saw...

So what we do is say top up by the said amount \ demand driven amount and then do a refeed every 5-15 days following a workout.....BUT.....and this is a BIG but....remember that we must NOT only think CONSUMED carbs...we must also think GlycoG carbs from Protein consumption....thats where the magic happens!......

Jayuk

Now this seems to be a solution. I know Dave Palumbo advocates this as well, once per week on the same day every week before bed. He likes to run a keto diet, where i like to run a carb cycling diet, so i feel in MY diet i do not need cheat days as often, as i supply a decent amount of carbs every few days. Maybe once every 2-3 weeks if iv been busting my ass and feel i need it il take a cheat meal for dinner after a double split day and go VERY low on carbs the next few days. I feel this not only replenishes glycogen stores, but also kicks back up your metabolism.
 
Great info in this thread and I believe that you are correct in saying that carb needs post are based on glyco that need be replenished but I would also like to add (as I'm sure MOST of us know) that the type of carbs used and the timing is just as important as the amount. If you want to see your workouts change for the better follow your post shake about sixty minutes later with crystalline fructose to ensure that liver glycogen has been restored. Muscle Glycogen is very important but many don't understand that liver glycogen is our long term energy stores. No matter what level athlete you are your workouts will change remarkably with the addition of crystalline fructose 1-2xperday.

Couldn't you just eat a few pieces of fruit per day?
 
Couldn't you just eat a few pieces of fruit per day?

The difference is the speed that the crystalline Fructose is able to restore liver glycogen and the fact that it contains almost equal levels of glucose and fructose. Fruit is great but this is better IMO. It's a tough sale but I can say from personal expierence (if anyone gives a *hit) that with the introduction strength will jump as will endurance. That being said I don't use it alone but rather coupled with the perfect percentages of other ingredients. The product I use is from my sponsoring company and I swear by it. I won't mention the products name because I'm serious about what it does and don't care about the sales of the particular product. TPFU if you are interested in feeling the results for yourself PM me and I'll have them ship you a comp bottle to try.-D
 
The difference is the speed that the crystalline Fructose is able to restore liver glycogen and the fact that it contains almost equal levels of glucose and fructose. Fruit is great but this is better IMO. It's a tough sale but I can say from personal expierence (if anyone gives a *hit) that with the introduction strength will jump as will endurance. That being said I don't use it alone but rather coupled with the perfect percentages of other ingredients. The product I use is from my sponsoring company and I swear by it. I won't mention the products name because I'm serious about what it does and don't care about the sales of the particular product. TPFU if you are interested in feeling the results for yourself PM me and I'll have them ship you a comp bottle to try.-D
good info dusty......thanks
 
Good thread! Interesting ideas and concepts to say the least.
 
The difference is the speed that the crystalline Fructose is able to restore liver glycogen and the fact that it contains almost equal levels of glucose and fructose. Fruit is great but this is better IMO. It's a tough sale but I can say from personal expierence (if anyone gives a *hit) that with the introduction strength will jump as will endurance. That being said I don't use it alone but rather coupled with the perfect percentages of other ingredients. The product I use is from my sponsoring company and I swear by it. I won't mention the products name because I'm serious about what it does and don't care about the sales of the particular product. TPFU if you are interested in feeling the results for yourself PM me and I'll have them ship you a comp bottle to try.-D

Really appreciate it bro, but im dieting for a show so i cant. I trust your word, il PM you for details on the prod when i finnish my show so i can bulk up and stop being puny haha
 
In conclusion, coingestion of carbohydrate during recovery does not further stimulate postexercise muscle protein synthesis when ample protein is ingested.

The problem I see with this is that while it may not increase protein synthesis, it does not speak on whether or not it increases the speed at which glycogen stores are replentished.

Phil mentioned this in another thread on what is the most 'natural' diet - does anyone consider the fact that by not eating fruit and vegetables (fruits), they are not getting the phytonutrients and antioxidants that they provide. While we can supplement them with pills, it has been suggested that the effects of antioxidants from fruits / vegetables are only present when in their natural, whole food form.
 
Thats just 25% drop in muscle glycogen!!!! for 30 mins of HIT[/B] JAYUK

Another


HMMMM now lets see...weve only used, again, 20-30% muscle glycogen!

Jayuk

To Be Continued..shortly

If we're talking real HIT training, then you're referring to a workout that happens once every few days or so. What about intense exercise for 45 - 90 minutes with moderate to heavy weights 6 days a week and cardio? I think the variables change, and 20-30% becomes 60% easily.

Plus you ignored my statement about carbs being protein sparing in its effects. That's very significant to bodybuilders.

And we don't have to be so specific in our Post Workout drink having to say, "Well, I need 56 grams of protein, and he needs 42.5" etc. If you round it to simple numbers, then you'll see why it's better to err on the side of excess when it comes to the numbers, especially post workout.
 
If we're talking real HIT training, then you're referring to a workout that happens once every few days or so. What about intense exercise for 45 - 90 minutes with moderate to heavy weights 6 days a week and cardio? I think the variables change, and 20-30% becomes 60% easily.

I wouldnt say easily...glycogen utilisation is dependent on type,duration and intensity of work. Now, bear in mind that I am saying its demand driven....I am not saying we all stick to a given number....as that would be foolish.

Plus you ignored my statement about carbs being protein sparing in its effects. That's very significant to bodybuilders.

Not intentionally ignored so apologies...I followed it up with other posts which addressed the issue. ..namely via GlycoG and the fact that we ALWAYS take PWO....but to make a further point..I urge you all to take heed and consume this data...

Protein sparing effect

I recently received a letter from a reader that asked about the protein-sparing effect of carbs. He sent me the address of a bodybuilding website he had been reading and wanted to know if what the guy who wrote the material said was true.

The basic premise of the piece is that in order to keep from losing muscle during dieting, one has to eat carbs. If no carbs are eaten, then muscle vanishes, or so he would have us believe. Is this true, the reader wanted to know. Let’s take a look.

Here are the pertinent paragraphs from the website:

The first thing you may think of is protein. Protein builds muscle. You learned that in the high school weight room. Protein in excess, however, can be used as energy or converted to body fat. Using protein as energy means less body fat is being used as energy. So, having the right amount of protein plus a little extra “just to be sure” you have enough is optimal, but gross overages of protein isn’t going to help you build muscle or retain it.

Believe it or not, carbs are key to retaining muscle. Carbohydrates and insulin have been targeted as the deadly duo in obesity and weight loss for very good reasons. However, even though excess carbs will make you gain fat fast, the silver lining is that you gain and retain muscle through the same mechanism.

Even when dieting with a lower than normal carb intake, your carbs can be targeted to help you retain muscle, maintain energy levels, and keep your metabolic rate high.

The anabolic effects of carbohydrates have been well documented since a 1940’s study showed them to be “protein sparing.” Compared to a fasting group, those with carbs (still no protein) lost only half as much muscle as those without carbs. Throw protein in and you get the same effect just at a higher level. Those with less carbs lose more muscle. Protein is certainly still king in the body’s anti-catabolism campaign, but carbohydrates are just as important.

Reading these paragraphs gives meaning to the old saying: “A little learning is a dangerous thing.”

Let’s look at what we know for sure about biochemistry and see where our bodybuilder went wrong.

What do we need to maintain life? We need a source of energy to keep our bodily functions humming along. We need blood sugar to feed our central nervous systems, red blood cells, and a few other tissues. And we need water.

Let’s assume we’ve got plenty of water, but we have no food to eat. How do we survive? Where do we get our energy and our blood sugar if we don’t eat?

We get our energy from the breakdown and release of stored fat. The fat we store away as adipose tissue is our energy reservoir, and that’s where we go when we need energy for all our cellular processes. Most of us, even those of us who are not overweight, have plenty of stored fat to last us a long time. Somewhere in one of our books I made the calculation that the amount of fat stored on the body of a 150 pound man was enough to allow him to walk from St. Louis to Miami (at least, I think those were the cities) without eating.

During starvation we get our blood sugar primarily from our muscles. Just as adipose tissue is the reservoir for energy, muscle is the reservoir for blood sugar. We get some sugar from the breakdown of fat, but not much. Triglycerides, i.e., stored fat, are made of three fatty acids attached to a glycerol backbone. When the fatty acids that we are burning for energy are stripped away from the glycerol, the liver converts these left-over glycerol molecules into glucose. Most of our sugar, however, comes from the breakdown of muscle tissue. The liver converts certain amino acids that make up muscle into sugar in a process called gluconeogenesis.

If we starve, our fat stores gradually ‘melt’ away as we use the stored fat for energy and our muscle mass diminishes as we breakdown muscle tissue to provide sugar.

Let’s say that during our period of starvation we find a bag of sugar. If we eat that sugar in amounts small enough to provide sugar to all the cells that need it, we won’t have to break down muscle tissue. We’ll be getting our energy from the fat we’re breaking down and we’ll get our sugar from the sugar, so we’ll retain, or spare, our muscle tissue. From this fact of biochemistry has arisen the notion that carbohydrates are muscle or protein sparing, which they indeed are under starvation conditions.

But what about when we eat? What happens under non-starvation conditions? Let’s say we’re dieting to lose weight. We create a caloric deficit and we burn our stored body fat for energy. If we’re on a low-calorie, high-carbohydrate diet we use the carbohydrate to provide the blood sugar we need, but at the expense of driving up insulin levels and stimulating the fat-storage process. If we’re on a low-carbohydrate diet, however, where do we get the sugar we need to maintain our muscle mass? From the protein we eat.

It’s important to eat plenty of protein while on a low-carbohydrate diet so that the dietary protein can be converted into blood sugar as needed. The author of the bodybuilding piece cautions against consuming too much protein because he believes any excess protein will be converted to fat, which is really stretching the biochemistry. Nature has designed our biochemistry to be efficient. The conversion of protein to fat, although possible, is extremely inefficient, and any excess energy from the excess protein would likely be more than used up in the conversion. As a consequence, dietary protein turning to fat is not something we really need to worry about. Dietary protein will convert to sugar, however, so that dietary protein, like dietary carbohydrate, is protein sparing.

The best way to lose excess stored fat and maintain (or even build) muscle is to eat plenty of protein to provide the building blocks for new muscle and to convert to blood sugar as needed while keeping overall calories low enough so that fat is burned to make up the energy deficit. The best diet to follow in order to accomplish all this easily is a whole-food low-carb diet. Protein is high, calories are low, and the limited carbohydrate insures that insulin levels remain low so that the fat easily flows from the fat cells and makes its way to the cellular furnaces for burning.

I CANNOT EMPHASISE ENOUGH THE ROLE OF PROTEIN AND GLYCOG!!


And we don't have to be so specific in our Post Workout drink having to say, "Well, I need 56 grams of protein, and he needs 42.5" etc. If you round it to simple numbers, then you'll see why it's better to err on the side of excess when it comes to the numbers, especially post workout.

Erm, you may have missed my points, either in this thread or JT's one but happy to elaborate again. I am not saying to be exact..that would again be totally foolish..I am saying be realistic on PWO carbs....remember..we are aiming to kick start replinishment and this occurs with the exogeneous carbs as well as the GlycoG glucose from Protein.....

Jayuk
 
One thing to consider, every study ive seen, included those mentioned in this thread.. are on fasted people. I sure hope you are not fasted during your workout to begin with. PWO nutrition is largely brought on my supplement companies. There is science behind it, but does it relate to BB'ers? Not really.

Why GI is brought in to this whole discussion is weird.. GI != High Insulin Index. Take milk for an example, pretty high insulin index (II), pretty low GI in comparison.

Its not going to hurt you if you take in extra cals/carbs after a workout (providing your daily totals is the same) but, eating 100g of non-nutrient containing carbs is not the greatest thing from a health standpoint either. If your going to take in that many carbs, why not make them have some nutritional value?
 
One thing to consider, every study ive seen, included those mentioned in this thread.. are on fasted people. I sure hope you are not fasted during your workout to begin with. PWO nutrition is largely brought on my supplement companies. There is science behind it, but does it relate to BB'ers? Not really.

Id ask WHY it was fasted? To get to gold status research you must follow protocol. If they were not fasted, the results can be argued and in many cases rubbished and blow out of the water.

Its not going to hurt you if you take in extra cals/carbs after a workout (providing your daily totals is the same) but, eating 100g of non-nutrient containing carbs is not the greatest thing from a health standpoint either. If your going to take in that many carbs, why not make them have some nutritional value?

I agree....remember this isnt about satanising carbs..its about intelligent eating for BB and Muscular growth......I merely present data and information and experience..its up to those if they wish to come outside of the mundane supplement-company led mindset and era. I dont sit and arm this down throats..I merely say to those who question it, TRY IT...and to date Ive not had anyone come back with negativity aside from the pain in making the metabolic shift...oh and fat loss and higher rate of muscle gain.


Jayuk
 
Jayuk, all this info you are putting out in this thread and JT's is very exciting, and interesting as hell. I tried this type diet a couple years ago, and only lasted about 5 weeks. I enjoyed the overall bodyweight loss of 35 pds. But owe not sticking to it, too getting a little more liberal with carbs as the weeks went by, a point you just brought up in JT's thread (carbs make you want carbs)
would it be possible for you to post a sample diet. If you need a subject, could you use a 225 20% bf man on a cutting cycle that does 45 mins of cardio at 6:00 am and lifts at 6:00pm.
 
Jayuk, all this info you are putting out in this thread and JT's is very exciting, and interesting as hell. I tried this type diet a couple years ago, and only lasted about 5 weeks. I enjoyed the overall bodyweight loss of 35 pds. But owe not sticking to it, too getting a little more liberal with carbs as the weeks went by, a point you just brought up in JT's thread (carbs make you want carbs)
would it be possible for you to post a sample diet. If you need a subject, could you use a 225 20% bf man on a cutting cycle that does 45 mins of cardio at 6:00 am and lifts at 6:00pm.

Sure thing....Ill post it when I get back.......will be pretty generic but will provide an insight into how to implement this protocol.....

To be honest this kind of change in thinking does shock people and does ask for "what the feck? go away" attitude..which is pretty common...why? As what I am saying goes against what we have all been taught...OR..to put it into context...what I am saying is backed by research and I have tried personally on myself and others with, on occasions, astounding results. But all I ask if for people to TRY this! Get out of the "carbs" approach..look around you....things havent changed in the BB world, we all do the same thing, we all take ages to reach our muscular peak..WHY?...Why cant I get to my genetic potential in 2 years? as opposed 4 years? Its questions like these that are what we all should be asking.

At the end of the day, we must understand, comprehend and realise that excessive GLUCOSE is TOXIC to the body!. YES! Excessive Carbs are TOXIC to the human body!

Now I dont even want to go into this type of diet with steroids! but add testosterone to this mix...and welll....I am hoping some of you will try this and report back exactly what I have.

PS : Youll also notice why HIGH PROTEIN and DC Training works so well! Even without the exogenous carbs, we are getting plenty!!



Jayuk
 
Last edited:

Staff online

  • K1
    Blue-Eyed Devil

Forum statistics

Total page views
561,288,793
Threads
136,369
Messages
2,785,042
Members
160,557
Latest member
Nopko
NapsGear
HGH Power Store email banner
your-raws
Prowrist straps store banner
infinity
FLASHING-BOTTOM-BANNER-210x131
raws
Savage Labs Store email
Syntherol Site Enhancing Oil Synthol
aqpharma
YMSApril210131
hulabs
ezgif-com-resize-2-1
MA Research Chem store banner
MA Supps Store Banner
volartek
Keytech banner
musclechem
Godbullraw-bottom-banner
Injection Instructions for beginners
Knight Labs store email banner
3
YMS-210x131-V02
YMS-210x131-V02
Back
Top