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RBC Issue, need advice

levrofan89

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Hey folks, Im a new poster but Im friends with nothuman and came here because I have some similar health problems. Im looking to share my experiences and hopefully get some sound advice on how to proceed. Here's whats going on, Im going to make it as short as possible.

I have had high crit and globin the past year which I found out by getting bloodwork done. Doc freaked and sent me to a Hema. Last year I came off all gear for 6 months to get my levels back in range (19 and 58). 3 Therapeutic Plebs later over the course of 4 weeks or so we got it down to 14.7 and 38. I waited a month, hoped back on test/tren for the spring/summer (500-750 test and 300-500 tren a week at most.)

Started cruising end of summer on 250 test. donated blood a month later, clinic had it at 16.7 pre donation. thought i was good. so a month later i started a NPP/Test mini blast 500 test to start 300 npp. went to go donate again maybe 6 weeks later, 2 weeks after i started my blast, im back up to 19.7. So i said holy shit!

come off npp and start cruising again on test 250 or so. do that for a month. go donate, and its 18.6 pre donation. go back to another clinic in two weeks to donate, and its 18.7, pre donation, so somehow it went up after donating two weeks earlier?

now i have a appointment with my hema next thursday and i have no clue what to do or tell him. i already blew off the first follow up visit back in october. i don't want to have to come off. i felt like DEATH for the six months i was totally off. he told me to stop the last time i saw him back last april and my levels would just recover on their own (total b/s i know). i told him i would. i have no idea where my RBC levels are and probably need another phleb since it seems like donating blood just doesn't work for me my levels are stubborn.

so basically, im asking should I totally come off all gear and tell him i started back up again? i really want to just get a few therapeutic phlebs, and just do a moderate test/tren cycle, donate twice every 60 days or so (two organizations) and just pursue my bodybuilding goals in peace.

any advice would be appreciated. thank you.
 

maldorf

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I had similar issues like you, but I was only on 100 mg/wk test. The hematologist informed me that once we got my iron level down then the hemoglobin would come down too. This makes sense since hemoglobin needs iron in its structure. Make sure you don't take any iron supplements. Just stopping my multivitamin that had iron in it helped me some. I now take a senior multi since it doesn't have iron. Once my iron got down, through phlebotomies and dropping the multi, I was able to stop doing monthly phlebotomies and now just do it once every 3 months or so.

I found that cruising on 250 mg/wk test made my hemoglobin increase over the course of months. I used to cruise on that like you are. It was too much for me. If you cruise on that much your hemoglobin doesn't have time to get down and may actually go up. I would cruise on just 100 mg/wk if I were you, TRT level. That should allow your count to get down. Cut out any iron supplements and keep getting your phlebotomies. You shouldn't need to go off completely clean if you feel like your test level was really low. Just do TRT. 100 mg/wk.
 

levrofan89

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I had similar issues like you, but I was only on 100 mg/wk test. The hematologist informed me that once we got my iron level down then the hemoglobin would come down too. This makes sense since hemoglobin needs iron in its structure. Make sure you don't take any iron supplements. Just stopping my multivitamin that had iron in it helped me some. I now take a senior multi since it doesn't have iron. Once my iron got down, through phlebotomies and dropping the multi, I was able to stop doing monthly phlebotomies and now just do it once every 3 months or so.

I found that cruising on 250 mg/wk test made my hemoglobin increase over the course of months. I used to cruise on that like you are. It was too much for me. If you cruise on that much your hemoglobin doesn't have time to get down and may actually go up. I would cruise on just 100 mg/wk if I were you, TRT level. That should allow your count to get down. Cut out any iron supplements and keep getting your phlebotomies. You shouldn't need to go off completely clean if you feel like your test level was really low. Just do TRT. 100 mg/wk.
thank you for the response. i guess i can just self administer my own TRT right? i don't have to listen to my hema. if he tells me to get off test (since thats the cause of my polycythemia), i don't actually have to. i just hope he will schedule me some phlebotomies regardless if i stay on or not. he told me to come off test the last time we had a meeting and that my test levels would recover on their own, obviously he is wrong (stayed off, no TRT, for 6 months while getting those phlebs, was absolute hell) now i have to go back next thursday and tell him that i went back on and that is why my RBC levels are high. they always went up and down together, in tandom. who knows, maybe after my last blood donation it went down to a normal level, but since they don't prick your finger after you donate blood to check i won't know till i go to the hema to check it out.


i thought i could just do those 3 phlebs last year, get my levels down, go back to blasting and cruising and if i donated once a month i could take care of it on my own. but obviously, i was wrong. super frustrating since i enjoy pursuing my bodybuilding goals. i just don't know what to tell him when i go see him next thursday. but as far as im concerned, you don't have to do what your doctor tells you to do right?
 

maldorf

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thank you for the response. i guess i can just self administer my own TRT right? i don't have to listen to my hema. if he tells me to get off test (since thats the cause of my polycythemia), i don't actually have to. i just hope he will schedule me some phlebotomies regardless if i stay on or not. he told me to come off test the last time we had a meeting and that my test levels would recover on their own, obviously he is wrong (stayed off, no TRT, for 6 months while getting those phlebs, was absolute hell) now i have to go back next thursday and tell him that i went back on and that is why my RBC levels are high. they always went up and down together, in tandom. who knows, maybe after my last blood donation it went down to a normal level, but since they don't prick your finger after you donate blood to check i won't know till i go to the hema to check it out.


i thought i could just do those 3 phlebs last year, get my levels down, go back to blasting and cruising and if i donated once a month i could take care of it on my own. but obviously, i was wrong. super frustrating since i enjoy pursuing my bodybuilding goals. i just don't know what to tell him when i go see him next thursday. but as far as im concerned, you don't have to do what your doctor tells you to do right?
You don't legally have to do anything he says, but he is looking after your health. When you were off for 6 months did your test level get up to normal? I was off for about 11 months, I know how it feels, and my level never got over about 65. I was miserable and had just had a really bad heart attack. If you didn't recover in the 6 months then I would say you probably wont ever. Did you get your levels restested? Testosterone, LH, estrogen etc?

My advice, if you don't want to risk any danger, is to go on HRT if your levels wont recover. I would just do the 100 mg/wk and if you insist on using then perhaps double that for 200 mg/wk for short bursts. It appears your body is similar to mine in that your H/H climbs fairly easy in response to steroids. It is your life though and you can do what you want. I developed cardiomyopathy and was always dealing with high hemoglobin levels. I went off for one year and got back to normal. My test levels even came back. Then I got stupid and went on again for a number of years and everything went to hell. I had a heart attack that almost killed me and then my natural test levels never came back.
 

levrofan89

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You don't legally have to do anything he says, but he is looking after your health. When you were off for 6 months did your test level get up to normal? I was off for about 11 months, I know how it feels, and my level never got over about 65. I was miserable and had just had a really bad heart attack. If you didn't recover in the 6 months then I would say you probably wont ever. Did you get your levels restested? Testosterone, LH, estrogen etc?

My advice, if you don't want to risk any danger, is to go on HRT if your levels wont recover. I would just do the 100 mg/wk and if you insist on using then perhaps double that for 200 mg/wk for short bursts. It appears your body is similar to mine in that your H/H climbs fairly easy in response to steroids. It is your life though and you can do what you want. I developed cardiomyopathy and was always dealing with high hemoglobin levels. I went off for one year and got back to normal. My test levels even came back. Then I got stupid and went on again for a number of years and everything went to hell. I had a heart attack that almost killed me and then my natural test levels never came back.
wow, thats nuts man, glad to see you made it through that. must have been scary. do you attribute it to having high h/h? did you have a clot? just curious

and when i was off for 6 months, my test never recovered had it checked after the 4 month mark and nothing. LH still was negative. -.01 i think. let it go for another month or so then hoped back on and felt great again muscle came back sex drive metabolism etc... my quality of life rapidly deteriorated while off. putting some test back in me turned things around but it brought back the old set of issues with my H/H. i really thought getting it down to 14.7 and 38 i would be good if i just did mild blasts and light cruises and donated every month. man was i wrong! so frustrating!

im not sure if my hema will write me a TRT script. so i guess i will just have to self administer. just not sure he will phleb me if i ignore his advice.
 

maldorf

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wow, thats nuts man, glad to see you made it through that. must have been scary. do you attribute it to having high h/h? did you have a clot? just curious

and when i was off for 6 months, my test never recovered had it checked after the 4 month mark and nothing. LH still was negative. -.01 i think. let it go for another month or so then hoped back on and felt great again muscle came back sex drive metabolism etc... my quality of life rapidly deteriorated while off. putting some test back in me turned things around but it brought back the old set of issues with my H/H. i really thought getting it down to 14.7 and 38 i would be good if i just did mild blasts and light cruises and donated every month. man was i wrong! so frustrating!

im not sure if my hema will write me a TRT script. so i guess i will just have to self administer. just not sure he will phleb me if i ignore his advice.
I did have a blood clot in one of my coronary arteries, the right main was 100% blocked and caused a massive heart attack. My ejection fraction is now somewhere between 20% and 25%. I have a defibrillator and it just recently went off 3 times. I have to go in for an ablation surgery on my heart soon. Things are not good for me.

I did find out after the heart attack that I have a genetic clotting disorder. Had my parents tested and it was my mother that has it. Nobody else in my family has had a clot like this though so we didn't even know the family had the trait. My mother is 78 and my uncle is 80 and never had an issue, perfectly healthy. I was the first. The trait I have occurs in about 2 out of 100 Caucasian people, so 2%. In my book that is a high enough probability to worry me. There are other clotting disorders too, so that's not the only one. Factor five is on other. It was the combination of heavy lifting, steroids, and the clotting factor that caused my clot. At the time my hemoglobin was down around 16 or so when I had the clot. I had just done a couple of phlebotomies. That shouldn't have been the cause. It can cause a clot though and most times its a DVT that can break lose and end up in your lungs as a pulmonary embolism. The pulmonary embolism can kill you fast.

Get yourself an endocrinologist to prescribe the testosterone, that is what I did. You should get copies of your medical records sent to the endo to show him how your 6 months off everything did not help. The test results will show him that. He should see that and hopefully prescribe you what you need right away. Most want to do 200 mg/2 weeks. I told mine I wanted it weekly and he didn't put up much of a fight.

Is the doctor you are getting your phlebotomies done by a hematologist? That is who does mine. He understands that being on HRT can raise my H/H but he understands the necessity of HRT and has no problems with our setup. I now get mine done once every 3 months. In the beginning it was once a month to get my numbers down. The key he said was getting my iron levels down enough, and he sure was right. Once iron got down my problem got much better. I was afraid having borderline low iron would make me feel like crap but it did not. I feel perfectly normal and suffer no ill effects from that.
 
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levrofan89

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I did have a blood clot in one of my coronary arteries, the right main was 100% blocked and caused a massive heart attack. My ejection fraction is now somewhere between 20% and 25%. I have a defibrillator and it just recently went off 3 times. I have to go in for an ablation surgery on my heart soon. Things are not good for me.

I did find out after the heart attack that I have a genetic clotting disorder. Had my parents tested and it was my mother that has it. Nobody else in my family has had a clot like this though so we didn't even know the family had the trait. My mother is 78 and my uncle is 80 and never had an issue, perfectly healthy. I was the first. The trait I have occurs in about 2 out of 100 Caucasian people, so 2%. In my book that is a high enough probability to worry me. There are other clotting disorders too, so that's not the only one. Factor five is on other. It was the combination of heavy lifting, steroids, and the clotting factor that caused my clot. At the time my hemoglobin was down around 16 or so when I had the clot. I had just done a couple of phlebotomies. That shouldn't have been the cause. It can cause a clot though and most times its a DVT that can break lose and end up in your lungs as a pulmonary embolism. The pulmonary embolism can kill you fast.

Get yourself an endocrinologist to prescribe the testosterone, that is what I did. You should get copies of your medical records sent to the endo to show him how your 6 months off everything did not help. The test results will show him that. He should see that and hopefully prescribe you what you need right away. Most want to do 200 mg/2 weeks. I told mine I wanted it weekly and he didn't put up much of a fight.

Is the doctor you are getting your phlebotomies done by a hematologist? That is who does mine. He understands that being on HRT can raise my H/H but he understands the necessity of HRT and has no problems with our setup. I now get mine done once every 3 months. In the beginning it was once a month to get my numbers down. The key he said was getting my iron levels down enough, and he sure was right. Once iron got down my problem got much better. I was afraid having borderline low iron would make me feel like crap but it did not. I feel perfectly normal and suffer no ill effects from that.
You think i would have to stop the test im on now and let my levels crash back through the floor before i would get an HRT script? remember, im only 27, do they give HRT scripts to 27 year olds ?

Yes, i go to a hema. About iron though, does eating less red meat and iron rich foods help lower your iron and help keep down H/H?

i know cardio and water can help but he said my polycythemia was mainly due to steroid use and not dehydration or high BP or anything else
 

maldorf

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You think i would have to stop the test im on now and let my levels crash back through the floor before i would get an HRT script? remember, im only 27, do they give HRT scripts to 27 year olds ?

Yes, i go to a hema. About iron though, does eating less red meat and iron rich foods help lower your iron and help keep down H/H?

i know cardio and water can help but he said my polycythemia was mainly due to steroid use and not dehydration or high BP or anything else
I did not modify my diet at all. I asked him about red meat and he said I don't need to worry about that. Just stopping the multi vitamin with Iron in it helped a lot.

As far as letting your levels get down, I would say you would have to make sure it is down when you see the doctor. Your medical records will show how your levels were rock bottom for 6 months so that should help move to process along. I told my endocrinologist about my heart attack and steroid use so that she knew why at 38 yrs old I had no testosterone. She was convinced that it would recover though so I had to endure the 11 months. Hopefully who you see wont make you go through that since you already did it once.
 

MouthBreather1982

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I plan to give blood every few months just to avoid this and possible heart issues from gravy thick blood.

Stewie said something a while back about some of these techs who draw blood confusing high RBCs for High iron due to poor training.
 

levrofan89

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I plan to give blood every few months just to avoid this and possible heart issues from gravy thick blood.

Stewie said something a while back about some of these techs who draw blood confusing high RBCs for High iron due to poor training.

that could be right. also, the finger prick analysis is not as accurate as the blood sample they draw out of you with a needle. but remember, just because you donate, doesn't necessarily mean it will go down and stay down, look at me. i have donated blood 5 times and had 3 phlebs in the past year alone and its still an issue. i was off for 5 to 6 months of the last year and never went over maybe 1.25 g total gear. mild use, still had a big problem

im very curious to see where my H/H is now after a few blood donations. still haven't figured out what im going to tell my hema, i hope he doesn't refuse to phleb me if i need it if he knows im back on or plan on staying on. seeing an endo at 27, i don't think i would be able to get an HRT script


my advice to you, go to two different clinics. donate twice a month. better to be safe than sorry.
 

levrofan89

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I did not modify my diet at all. I asked him about red meat and he said I don't need to worry about that. Just stopping the multi vitamin with Iron in it helped a lot.

As far as letting your levels get down, I would say you would have to make sure it is down when you see the doctor. Your medical records will show how your levels were rock bottom for 6 months so that should help move to process along. I told my endocrinologist about my heart attack and steroid use so that she knew why at 38 yrs old I had no testosterone. She was convinced that it would recover though so I had to endure the 11 months. Hopefully who you see wont make you go through that since you already did it once.

you really think they hand out HRT scripts to 27 year olds? They will probably just tell me to stop again and just "wait it out" and hope my levels return. i know hes going to tell me to come off or stop, but i don't want to go to zero test. im going to be mulling over what to tell him all week.
 

maldorf

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that could be right. also, the finger prick analysis is not as accurate as the blood sample they draw out of you with a needle. but remember, just because you donate, doesn't necessarily mean it will go down and stay down, look at me. i have donated blood 5 times and had 3 phlebs in the past year alone and its still an issue. i was off for 5 to 6 months of the last year and never went over maybe 1.25 g total gear. mild use, still had a big problem

im very curious to see where my H/H is now after a few blood donations. still haven't figured out what im going to tell my hema, i hope he doesn't refuse to phleb me if i need it if he knows im back on or plan on staying on. seeing an endo at 27, i don't think i would be able to get an HRT script


my advice to you, go to two different clinics. donate twice a month. better to be safe than sorry.
Starting out I had to get a phlebotomy done ONCE A MONTH to get mine down to where I could go in just once every 3 months. That was on just 100 mg/wk HRT through my doc too. I had to do that for over 1 year! It takes awhile, you have to be patient. Now if you continue to cycle steroids then your level will never get down.
 

maldorf

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you really think they hand out HRT scripts to 27 year olds? They will probably just tell me to stop again and just "wait it out" and hope my levels return. i know hes going to tell me to come off or stop, but i don't want to go to zero test. im going to be mulling over what to tell him all week.
Well, I thought you said that you were under the care of a doctor and they have documented that you went 6 months off everything and your LH never got to measurable levels. That is what I went through for 11 months. I think if keep seeing that doctor then he/she shouldn't have any trouble prescribing the test for you. Is there a reason you don't want to see that doctor? 6 months of a record like that should be enough. My endo understood that I had destroyed my natural test, but it took 11 months to prove it to her. I was only 38 years old at the time, not much difference. If you weren't seeing an endo and the present doc is giving you shit then see a new endo. Have the records transferred.

I am not sure now what your plans are long term though. Do you plan on just using the prescription for cruising and then you are going to blast on your own with underground? If you do, you will continue to fight the H/H problem. Even on just HRT you will most probably still need phlebotomies. Only time would tell on that.
 

levrofan89

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Well, I thought you said that you were under the care of a doctor and they have documented that you went 6 months off everything and your LH never got to measurable levels. That is what I went through for 11 months. I think if keep seeing that doctor then he/she shouldn't have any trouble prescribing the test for you. Is there a reason you don't want to see that doctor? 6 months of a record like that should be enough. My endo understood that I had destroyed my natural test, but it took 11 months to prove it to her. I was only 38 years old at the time, not much difference. If you weren't seeing an endo and the present doc is giving you shit then see a new endo. Have the records transferred.

I am not sure now what your plans are long term though. Do you plan on just using the prescription for cruising and then you are going to blast on your own with underground? If you do, you will continue to fight the H/H problem. Even on just HRT you will most probably still need phlebotomies. Only time would tell on that.
under the care of a hema and yes he has records showing my LH at -.01 but he doesn't really know how long i was off for, besides what I had told him, which was about 4 months. my hema acted like my test would just recover on my own and balked at the idea of a 26 year old getting HRT. my long term plans are hopefully to continue juicing recreationally and getting phlebed occasionally, with some blood donations too in order to keep my H/H down. i don't want to give it up totally. i enjoy bodybuilding on my own and would hate to give it up due to health issues which are really just bad luck considering ally my lifting buddies slam grams of deca eq and theres barley rises at all. super frustrating. then there like "bro why aren't you on more shit" then i have to explain to them my health issues. they just don't get it.
 

maldorf

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under the care of a hema and yes he has records showing my LH at -.01 but he doesn't really know how long i was off for, besides what I had told him, which was about 4 months. my hema acted like my test would just recover on my own and balked at the idea of a 26 year old getting HRT. my long term plans are hopefully to continue juicing recreationally and getting phlebed occasionally, with some blood donations too in order to keep my H/H down. i don't want to give it up totally. i enjoy bodybuilding on my own and would hate to give it up due to health issues which are really just bad luck considering ally my lifting buddies slam grams of deca eq and theres barley rises at all. super frustrating. then there like "bro why aren't you on more shit" then i have to explain to them my health issues. they just don't get it.
Well, if you are going to continue juicing then I really wouldn't even worry about getting HRT from a doc since you wont need it, plenty of supply on your own. Too much trouble to go through.

Be safe and watch things. You only get one chance with something like your heart, once you fuck it up that is it. I found out the hard way.
 

levrofan89

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Well, if you are going to continue juicing then I really wouldn't even worry about getting HRT from a doc since you wont need it, plenty of supply on your own. Too much trouble to go through.

Be safe and watch things. You only get one chance with something like your heart, once you fuck it up that is it. I found out the hard way.
No doubt man scary shit, glad to see your ok. I have deff re considered things and no longer blast grams of shit like I did when I was younger. Health is so important in the long run. Im just dreading telling my hema that I started juicing again since i was supposed to stop last year when i went through this same exact issue. it makes me look real dumb lol here i am a year later, same problem, and same cause. im going to tell him my quality of life deteriorated and i took some test to get my energy, muscle, metabolism back after being totally crashed. wish me luck lol
 

levrofan89

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I dont get why you have this problem if you are donating so often.
yup. mind boggling isan't it? makes no sense. super unlucky. i guess i just have shit genetics. extremely frustrating, since i don't abuse gear like my friends and they have NO issue (don't donate either) moment of truth will be thursday when i go to the hema. i will come here and post the results. i was cruising on 250mg test. donated twice in the past month. 3 times since december.
 

levrofan89

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update:

had my hema apt at 10:45 today. waited till 12, still had not been called in yet and at least one person was ahead of me so i asked the receptionist to reschedule for two weeks from today.

so today was the first day i was eligible to donate to the rhode island blood center (i rotate between them and red cross) so i go in to donate. my levels, after being on about 250 test a week since the end of summer, were 16.2 and 46! i was so pumped! then i donated and im sure now its lower than that which is perfect! i donated blood maybe about a month ago with red cross and it was 18 and 56 i think. so this is good progress.

now i go see my hema in two weeks with perfect RBC levels (im hoping). im going to stay off everything including test and go in there and hopefully he just lets me go if everything is in range (which it should be). i will tell him im going to deal with my test issue by myself and that im not worried about it.

then if all goes well hoping on test prop/tren for summer!
 

maldorf

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update:

had my hema apt at 10:45 today. waited till 12, still had not been called in yet and at least one person was ahead of me so i asked the receptionist to reschedule for two weeks from today.

so today was the first day i was eligible to donate to the rhode island blood center (i rotate between them and red cross) so i go in to donate. my levels, after being on about 250 test a week since the end of summer, were 16.2 and 46! i was so pumped! then i donated and im sure now its lower than that which is perfect! i donated blood maybe about a month ago with red cross and it was 18 and 56 i think. so this is good progress.

now i go see my hema in two weeks with perfect RBC levels (im hoping). im going to stay off everything including test and go in there and hopefully he just lets me go if everything is in range (which it should be). i will tell him im going to deal with my test issue by myself and that im not worried about it.

then if all goes well hoping on test prop/tren for summer!
Just don't forget what got you to the point of such a high count and that if you go back to that same behavior you will be right back there again with the same condition.
 

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