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Responsible Usage: Not another BS low dosage vs high dosage thread

bbxtreme

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Lately there have been a lot of threads popping up on here about guys with health scares and who takes what, how long, etc.

As everyone knows I am big on pushing health, supplements and medications where needed.

BUT, I wanted to set the record straight as I think many may have interpreted that as me saying you should “cruise” or “come off” or run “low dosages”.

When I give suggestions it’s in the context of knowing that I am a competitor going for a pro card, who has a medical degree, and that I’m on a board of some of the most elite physiques.

There are NO two ways about it. If you want to achieve a pro card or look like a badass bodybuilder who competes- you are going to be pushing a lot of gear. Period. Unless you are the genetic responser or elite then you aren’t running low cycles of 1g of gear per week. Anyone who says they are is full of shit and in denial.

Furthermore, anything over 1mg of Testosterone per pound of bodyweight weekly IS considered a cycle. Sorry if that blows people’s mind, but that’s TRT. NOT 200mg test, 200 primo and “micro dosing” tren. 😂

So why am I starting this thread?

One I get so many DM’s and questions on here about this subject and two I’m sick of seeing the vets and huge guys on here post less when they post the truth and all these morons jump in who are 12 and tell them it’s made up or that they are going to die. Lol. Go eat your Cheerios kids.

When I turned 30 I promised my wife, myself and future children that I would do this responsibly. And as someone with a medical degree I became hell bent on proving that it could be done. Guess what… it’s not as hard as I thought it would be.

What is responsive usage?

Responsible usage means smart cycles. It means not taking more than you need and increasing dosages only when you hit a ceiling and have maximized food, training and recovery first.

It means not running tren year round, taking orals longer than 5 weeks and ideally only using in prep or a final stage of a cut.

It means maximizing T4 and not jumping straight to T3 or DNP to overcompensate.

But what it really boils down to is not abusing drugs to abuse gear. Not abusing gear to eat like shit or because you aren’t disciplined enough. It means doing cardio and steps daily instead of abusing BP meds and beta blockers. I could go on, but you get the idea.

The goal should be to stay healthy with clean blood work and cardio testing year round. Just because you don’t do regular blood work, monitor vitals or do annual cardio testing does NOT mean that some health issue doesn’t exist. That is irresponsible and denial.

Eat as much food as possible, maximize as much gear as you can tolerate without sides and you will grow. Period. As you push the upper limits or to be proactive take supplements and when warranted add in Nebilivol and Telimisartan to “protect” the heart. Don’t do it because you’re too lazy to do cardio or eat clean year round. If you play with fire you will get burned.

The truth is- guys aren’t coming off cycle these days until they’re retiring or have a health scare (they likely won’t if they’re doing things responsibly). There is tremendous risk in constantly causing large bodyweight fluctuations as well.

And before anyone says Ronnie or Jay came off back in the day. LOL yeah maybe they came off the dosages from 5g to 3g. Maybe they came off clen and high amounts of T3/T4. But nobody came “off” truly. If you need proof of that look at all those guys in their “offseason” then look at them after they “retired”… enough said. Branch Warren said it best when asked if he’d compete again- “I’m done with “those” drugs.”!

At the end of the day guys need to stop abusing things to abuse things. But IMO there is smart way and a dumb way to do things.

I’ll let this thread go where guys want it to go. Just leave your moral judgment out of it. This is a hardcore bodybuilding forum. For anyone who thinks gear isn’t a part of that… well that’s just comical.

I think it would be great for the bigger guys on here to chime in with:

1. What’s your usage like year round?
2. How do you maintain your health doing what you are?
3. What’s an area you could improve on to take it to the next level and why don’t you?

To be fair, I’ll start:

1. Lowest I go now is about 1600mg of gear weekly. Highest I’ve gone was just under 4g which was my ceiling. Usually push up around 3g pre-contest and am currently just over 2g in a progressive phase.

2. I base my gear amount on my health, vitals, bloodwork and testing. I take staple supplements year round and I use Telimisartan 40mg and Nebilvol 2.5mg daily for cardio protective benefits. I have perfect vitals without them, but want no risk of LVH or issues. Jardiance is used when high amounts of HGH and insulin are being untitled. Protects the heart, kidneys and balances BG. I also do 10k steps daily, cardio 5 times a week PWO. Only trace saturated fats. You get the idea.

3. The older I get the more I hate to eat. I also hold back if I’m being honest on gear as I have a strong genetic pre disposition to heart issues on my father’s side. Heart attacks and bypass for him, dead uncles and all at young ages. Even with the best sports cardiologist and all the measures I take it still stays in my head that if I run higher dosages or push on tren that I’m risking that. I do this because I love it so it’s not worth it to me.

Enjoy and hope this continues just like my insulin thread to further make this sport a bit more transparent and safer.
 
A much-needed most to educate way too many members here.

I told @bbxtreme to make this post when private messaging and I'm so glad he did - guys need to know the truth about top physiques when you aren't the genetic elite or have a crazy response to gear. When I see guys here talking about cycles for X weeks and what they want to achieve I just shake my head - same with the anything over TRT is dangerous crowd, the guys who always call out the bad thing that happened to them, the guys who literally say 'I'm scared to take X', etc.

1. What’s your usage like year round?
  • Blast hard most of the year and typically cruise around the holidays and into the new year
  • When I say 'blast hard' - I've pushed 5-6 grams along with orals, lots of GH, and insulin
  • I'd say average on blast would be 3-4 grams and cruise could be anywhere from 300mg to 1 gram, just depends how I'm feeling
2. How do you maintain your health doing what you are?
  • The most important way is genetics - my dad's dad smoked for almost 80 years, never got cancer or heart issues, didn't take medications or supplements, died of natural causes at 89; my dad has smoked for almost 50 years, doesn't take any medications or supplements, great bloodwork, and weighs the same he did in high school (~180lbs.) without exercise or a strict diet (to be fair he doesn't eat that much)
  • My dad has low blood pressure to the point he's fainted standing up a few times and I did too until I was consistently in the 240s - that's when I added Telmisartan
  • Telmisartan and Nebivolol are the only prescriptions I take but I'm adding Jardiance this year
  • I take a ton of health supplements recommended by Dante Trudel and others (PQQ, Ubiquinol, TUDCA, astaragalus, Kidney Stuff, etc.) - it made me very proud when I gave my list to @Swifto and he gave it his approval
  • Haven't slept without my CPAP in 6 years
  • As an example of my genetic tolerance for this stuff, I once had bloodwork (unplanned) the day after a brutal back session, while on probably 3-4 grams plus orals, GH, and insulin - my liver enzymes were only in the 80s
3. What’s an area you could improve on to take it to the next level and why don’t you?
  • As a non-competitor I feel like I've peaked and I'm fine with that
  • I've been 295lbs. relatively lean, benched 500 x 4, been the biggest guy around, etc.
  • I'll be 37 next month and with maintaining good health though my bodybuilding journey I'm only pushing this for another 2-3 years all out
 
Brilliant post 10/10!

I’ll chuck my info in

Up until about March last year I’ve used gear on and off for years but very hit and miss like I’d start a 12 week cycle and a few weeks in something life related would crop up and I’d bin the cycle off. I’d probably never been over 1.5g max

So from about last July till now I’ve been on about 1.5-1.7g of gear mix of test/mast/eq/deca. Between August last year and now I used GH and insulin for the first time ever.

So my current cycle is
Sust: 500mg
Mast: 600mg
EQ: 600mg
Gh: 7iu/day
Insulin: 10iu pre and post

Ive been on roughly that total gear dosage for around 6 months now

I did run anavar and anadrol between last July and now. I don’t plan on running them again off-season as it knocked my lipids off which I am
Currently correcting now.

This for reference is the highest and most consistent I’ve ever been with gear.


2:


To maintain my health or at least try to I run a wide array of health supps honestly probably to many but very much a prevent an issue instead of fix it kind of situation.

I keep on top of my BP (never been an issue)

I do 8k steps a day and 30 mins cardio a day

I train intensely 6 days a week (probably doing more harm than good 😅)

I follow a very clean diet IE low fat low junk etc etc bodybuilding diet

I don’t drink, smoke or do rec drugs

I have a very stress free life

I get my blood work done multiple times per year and keep on top of any issues

I haven’t touched tren in a long time and don’t plan to off-season time or orals


3:

What could I do to improve things and go to the next level?

Im competing the latter end of this year in 3 shows and I’ll be in the equivalent of SHW class at 5.11ft and somewhere around the 230lbs (at a guess) so at the lower end of the weight scale but these will be my first 3 shows

My goal is to take it as far as I can

Maybe I am naive but I believe “upping the dose” is my next step

I train hard and progressively and red line it as in anymore and I would be overtraining

I eat the maximal amount of food without getting needlessly fat

My dosages aren’t low but seemingly neither are they high.

I believe realistically to max out my physique I could stand to gain another 30-40lbs of actual muscle tissue

The thing I’m unsure of is when to up the dose as I don’t want to jump the gun but I don’t want to waste time by constantly putting it off

So yeah that’s me 😅
 
Brilliant post 10/10!

I’ll chuck my info in

Up until about March last year I’ve used gear on and off for years but very hit and miss like I’d start a 12 week cycle and a few weeks in something life related would crop up and I’d bin the cycle off. I’d probably never been over 1.5g max

So from about last July till now I’ve been on about 1.5-1.7g of gear mix of test/mast/eq/deca. Between August last year and now I used GH and insulin for the first time ever.

So my current cycle is
Sust: 500mg
Mast: 600mg
EQ: 600mg
Gh: 7iu/day
Insulin: 10iu pre and post

Ive been on roughly that total gear dosage for around 6 months now

I did run anavar and anadrol between last July and now. I don’t plan on running them again off-season as it knocked my lipids off which I am
Currently correcting now.

This for reference is the highest and most consistent I’ve ever been with gear.


2:


To maintain my health or at least try to I run a wide array of health supps honestly probably to many but very much a prevent an issue instead of fix it kind of situation.

I keep on top of my BP (never been an issue)

I do 8k steps a day and 30 mins cardio a day

I train intensely 6 days a week (probably doing more harm than good 😅)

I follow a very clean diet IE low fat low junk etc etc bodybuilding diet

I don’t drink, smoke or do rec drugs

I have a very stress free life

I get my blood work done multiple times per year and keep on top of any issues

I haven’t touched tren in a long time and don’t plan to off-season time or orals


3:

What could I do to improve things and go to the next level?

Im competing the latter end of this year in 3 shows and I’ll be in the equivalent of SHW class at 5.11ft and somewhere around the 230lbs (at a guess) so at the lower end of the weight scale but these will be my first 3 shows

My goal is to take it as far as I can

Maybe I am naive but I believe “upping the dose” is my next step

I train hard and progressively and red line it as in anymore and I would be overtraining

I eat the maximal amount of food without getting needlessly fat

My dosages aren’t low but seemingly neither are they high.

I believe realistically to max out my physique I could stand to gain another 30-40lbs of actual muscle tissue

The thing I’m unsure of is when to up the dose as I don’t want to jump the gun but I don’t want to waste time by constantly putting it off

So yeah that’s me 😅
Excellent addition that I forgot to add:

“I don’t drink, smoke or do rec drugs“

This 💯 falls under responsible usage. You can likely get away with one or maybe moderately gear and having a few beers here and there. But if you want to actively drink, smoke and do high gear dosages… you’re asking for trouble IMO.
 
A much-needed most to educate way too many members here.

I told @bbxtreme to make this post when private messaging and I'm so glad he did - guys need to know the truth about top physiques when you aren't the genetic elite or have a crazy response to gear. When I see guys here talking about cycles for X weeks and what they want to achieve I just shake my head - same with the anything over TRT is dangerous crowd, the guys who always call out the bad thing that happened to them, the guys who literally say 'I'm scared to take X', etc.

1. What’s your usage like year round?
  • Blast hard most of the year and typically cruise around the holidays and into the new year
  • When I say 'blast hard' - I've pushed 5-6 grams along with orals, lots of GH, and insulin
  • I'd say average on blast would be 3-4 grams and cruise could be anywhere from 300mg to 1 gram, just depends how I'm feeling
2. How do you maintain your health doing what you are?
  • The most important way is genetics - my dad's dad smoked for almost 80 years, never got cancer or heart issues, didn't take medications or supplements, died of natural causes at 89; my dad has smoked for almost 50 years, doesn't take any medications or supplements, great bloodwork, and weighs the same he did in high school (~180lbs.) without exercise or a strict diet (to be fair he doesn't eat that much)
  • My dad has low blood pressure to the point he's fainted standing up a few times and I did too until I was consistently in the 240s - that's when I added Telmisartan
  • Telmisartan and Nebivolol are the only prescriptions I take but I'm adding Jardiance this year
  • I take a ton of health supplements recommended by Dante Trudel and others (PQQ, Ubiquinol, TUDCA, astaragalus, Kidney Stuff, etc.) - it made me very proud when I gave my list to @Swifto and he gave it his approval
  • Haven't slept without my CPAP in 6 years
  • As an example of my genetic tolerance for this stuff, I once had bloodwork (unplanned) the day after a brutal back session, while on probably 3-4 grams plus orals, GH, and insulin - my liver enzymes were only in the 80s
3. What’s an area you could improve on to take it to the next level and why don’t you?
  • As a non-competitor I feel like I've peaked and I'm fine with that
  • I've been 295lbs. relatively lean, benched 500 x 4, been the biggest guy around, etc.
  • I'll be 37 next month and with maintaining good health though my bodybuilding journey I'm only pushing this for another 2-3 years all out

My friend, you are too kind. You are waaaay bigger than me and I constantly learn stuff off of you. But thank you :)
 
Brilliant post 10/10!

I’ll chuck my info in

Up until about March last year I’ve used gear on and off for years but very hit and miss like I’d start a 12 week cycle and a few weeks in something life related would crop up and I’d bin the cycle off. I’d probably never been over 1.5g max

So from about last July till now I’ve been on about 1.5-1.7g of gear mix of test/mast/eq/deca. Between August last year and now I used GH and insulin for the first time ever.

So my current cycle is
Sust: 500mg
Mast: 600mg
EQ: 600mg
Gh: 7iu/day
Insulin: 10iu pre and post

Ive been on roughly that total gear dosage for around 6 months now

I did run anavar and anadrol between last July and now. I don’t plan on running them again off-season as it knocked my lipids off which I am
Currently correcting now.

This for reference is the highest and most consistent I’ve ever been with gear.


2:


To maintain my health or at least try to I run a wide array of health supps honestly probably to many but very much a prevent an issue instead of fix it kind of situation.

I keep on top of my BP (never been an issue)

I do 8k steps a day and 30 mins cardio a day

I train intensely 6 days a week (probably doing more harm than good 😅)

I follow a very clean diet IE low fat low junk etc etc bodybuilding diet

I don’t drink, smoke or do rec drugs

I have a very stress free life

I get my blood work done multiple times per year and keep on top of any issues

I haven’t touched tren in a long time and don’t plan to off-season time or orals


3:

What could I do to improve things and go to the next level?

Im competing the latter end of this year in 3 shows and I’ll be in the equivalent of SHW class at 5.11ft and somewhere around the 230lbs (at a guess) so at the lower end of the weight scale but these will be my first 3 shows

My goal is to take it as far as I can

Maybe I am naive but I believe “upping the dose” is my next step

I train hard and progressively and red line it as in anymore and I would be overtraining

I eat the maximal amount of food without getting needlessly fat

My dosages aren’t low but seemingly neither are they high.

I believe realistically to max out my physique I could stand to gain another 30-40lbs of actual muscle tissue

The thing I’m unsure of is when to up the dose as I don’t want to jump the gun but I don’t want to waste time by constantly putting it off

So yeah that’s me 😅

It might be wise to get a CT scan and ECHO before pushing the doses again and see where you are?
 
Great thread! And thanks for the honesty for the people posting.

@bbxtreme what are your stats? And do you really think you need at least 1.6 grams of gear to ´cruise´ and keep your physique? Not hating at all, just curious.
 
It might be wise to get a CT scan and ECHO before pushing the doses again and see where you are?

It probably would yeah speaking to the guys I know who’ve actually got one here in the UK it’s a nightmare unless you actually “need” one then they will absolutely not make it easy to get one done
 
It probably would yeah speaking to the guys I know who’ve actually got one here in the UK it’s a nightmare unless you actually “need” one then they will absolutely not make it easy to get one done

The Nuffield Hospital (private) do it up and down the country.

My CT scan was £350 and the ECHO is £550.
 
The last few years I've been doing the "TRT plus" thing (200-300 test with a little masteron or anavar or whatever) and eating whatever the hell I want. This year, I'm cleaning up the diet, upping cardio, upping dosages. I'm not competing or anything I just want to look better.
 
Great thread! And thanks for the honesty for the people posting.

@bbxtreme what are your stats? And do you really think you need at least 1.6 grams of gear to ´cruise´ and keep your physique? Not hating at all, just curious.
I am just under 5’7 and mid 190’s right now and extremely lean as I have some photo’s end of month I have to shoot for business.

The 1.6g comes from years of experience. Trust me, if I could maintain or progress on less I would.

@danieltx nailed- genetics play a huge role in this sport. I also eat about 4500 calories right now and can diet without going under 3000 as I’m the hard gainer who has to eat a ton of food to maintain.
 
I think pics are also useful when discussing dosages and such things as the proof is in the pudding so to speak if I say I’ve taken grams of stuff and look like a child then somethings clearly off

I’m 5.11ft and about 282lbs here. Not lean but also not planning on adding anymore fat

I grow on quite a low amount of food currently around 4k cals

I realise I’m not a Phil Heath or anywhere remotely close sadly
But I hope with enough time doing everything I can then I can get somewhere competitively
 

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Extremely helpful info in this thread for new guys coming up. Got my start in the mid 80's (most of you reading this weren't even born yet I suspect). I'm on the back end of this hobby/lifestyle/sport now at 55, happily married (20+ years) with 2 kids (one in college). If only I could have had access to this info 30+ years ago. It would have prevented me making some huge health blunders. I'm done reacting negatively, judging individuals in what they put in their bodies. Your life, your choice. Professional Muscle continues to be a great resource and I suspect posts/threads like this will serve as a template for how to achieve your BBing goals with your health intact so that you can enjoy your successes later in life.
 
I think pics are also useful when discussing dosages and such things as the proof is in the pudding so to speak if I say I’ve taken grams of stuff and look like a child then somethings clearly off

I’m 5.11ft and about 282lbs here. Not lean but also not planning on adding anymore fat

I grow on quite a low amount of food currently around 4k cals

I realise I’m not a Phil Heath or anywhere remotely close sadly
But I hope with enough time doing everything I can then I can get somewhere competitively
That back width and thickness is insane. 😎
 
I think pics are also useful when discussing dosages and such things as the proof is in the pudding so to speak if I say I’ve taken grams of stuff and look like a child then somethings clearly off

I’m 5.11ft and about 282lbs here. Not lean but also not planning on adding anymore fat

I grow on quite a low amount of food currently around 4k cals

I realise I’m not a Phil Heath or anywhere remotely close sadly
But I hope with enough time doing everything I can then I can get somewhere competitively
Just had to chime in here and say that lat spread is pretty crazy lol
 

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