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Rest/Pause DC style vs Straight Sets discussion

USMuscle9403

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Along those lines; my old gym didn't have a standing leg curl, so I used the leg extension machine. The look on people's faces was always "he doesn't know what he's doing...wait...I don't know what I'm doing."

Full credit to Mark Dugdale because I got the idea from him.


I used to do standing leg curls on our lying leg curl at my last gym, too, as well as turning the donkey Calf raise into a VERY effective pendulum/sissy squat. I'm like Dante, you get burned out on the same old shit and need to get creative and sometimes a certain leverage point or mechanical positioning is all you need to turn an otherwise mediocre movement into something extremely effective. It can get a little weird but that's the fun of it. For instance, try any lat pull movement with your pinky off the grip of whatever you're doing. Sounds silly as fuck but try it and see how much better you feel it in your lats...

Not trolling, promise. Learned that from Seth Feroce I think?

John Meadows is another that comes up with some really interesting movements
 

juggy38

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Another thing I do when I stall is
Chang sequence....say I’m doing flat DB, incline barbell, chest fly. RP, RP, 1 straight set.

I’ll go chest fly RP, incline barbell RP, 1 straight set DB.
 

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Hello Dante, I just wanted to let you know I´ve recently tried the "stretch under load" technique for lat width movements you wrote about on IG and for me personally it´s a game changer, to the point I don´t want to train lat width any other way now, my question is how to best incorporate this into my routine since I think rest pausing and stretching under load would be too much for me. I´m currently doing three lat width sets, two normal sets to near failure with one minute rest and the third is the stretch set, I´m thinking of going the same way with incline dumbbell chest presses and just wanted to ask what you do yourself? Also do you have any stretch under load excersise sugestions for other body parts? Thank you.

I have stretch under load for virtually every bodypart (harder on biceps and shoulders).....you would have to pick your poison if you feel its going to overtax you doing both (I rest pause and do stretch under load for lats) but i do one all working set so maybe thats the key for you....warmup sets all the way up to your top set and then an all out rest pause set that emphasizes the stretch at the top
 

DOGGCRAPP

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Along those lines; my old gym didn't have a standing leg curl, so I used the leg extension machine. The look on people's faces was always "he doesn't know what he's doing...wait...I don't know what I'm doing."

Full credit to Mark Dugdale because I got the idea from him.


If you can find an old school standing leg curl you can do an incredible adductor movement on it also
 

USMuscle9403

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If you can find an old school standing leg curl you can do an incredible adductor movement on it also

I cant seem to find a pic so excuse my awful explanation, but we have the old red padded machine where you load plates at the bottom and it has a small pad for your knees and a small one for you to hook your heel. Is that the one you're referring to? The knee pad position is adjustable and to do each leg, you have to manually turn it at the bottom. If so, I'm assuming you're just coming at that machine from the side? Damn, that's an interesting one... Interesting enough to try :LOL:

Speaking of which, I use a different range of motion on that machine and find it hits my hams better than the conventional way. It allows me to curl my leg a bit inward and hits hams and a bit of glutes a bit different.
 

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Regarding the Jordan Peters interview. A couple takeaway points for me:

1- His general lack of importance he assigns to the mind/muscle connection.
2- Although he states there are many ways to create progression, it is very clear his idea of progression is through adding more pounds to the bar. He even stresses adding pounds over adding reps. Then he causally mentions other ways such as cutting down rest time...but anything other than adding lbs. seems to be an afterthought.

The man is a giant so this obviously works very very well for him. He even suggests that if other top guys trained like this he would like to see how big he could get them. But, at the same time I am from an era of Lee Haney, Shawn Ray and some others who didn't necessarily focus on adding pounds to the bar. I read somewhere decades ago where Shawn said he could get a great workout with nothing but dumbbells up to 50lbs. And Haney's mantra was "stimulate, don't annihilate." He built a huge back doing rows with #185lbs.

Although I love watching these power bodybuilders like Peters, Dusty Hanshaw, Ronnie Coleman etc. if I were to start all over again and wanted to compete, I would follow in the footsteps of Haney, Ray etc. Those guys are mid 50's+ still in great shape, move around fine, and are not crippled and still managed to be at the top of their profession for many years.
 

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You do realize that Shawn Ray won his pro card in 1987 as a light heavy at the top of the class (right smack dab in his best possible growing years) and over the next 14 years gained only 10-14 lbs so over 14 years he did ALL those workouts to gain .73 to 1 lb per year? If thats the route you want to take in your bodybuilding career, to do upwards of 260-312 workouts per year to gain less than a pound of muscle per year be my guest. Train 5 years to gain 4lbs of muscle? Screw that. You better look like a physical specimen at 17 years old like Shawn Ray did to make it work for you, because virtually everyone else who gains muscle mass at a sloths pace like that is not going to amount to a hill of beans as a bodybuilder.

Try doing that route with a 5'10 200 lb white guy with normal genetics and see what you end up with. 14 years later he weighs 212lbs and the only way he would ever be onstage next to other elite bodybuilders who are 5'10" (and probably 240-265lbs onstage) is if he was handed a broom to sweep it.
 

danieltx

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Haney also preaches the only exercises one should do are barbell bench press, barbell rows, parallel bar dips, all the super basic shit. Like many top bodybuilders, he fell into the trap of 'what works for me is the only stuff anyone should do', without realizing he could've likely done anything in the gym and had close to the same end result. Most guys fail to get results because they follow dogma like that and think it's something special because of who it came from.

If I followed Haney's methods I'd have little to show for it. It's taken me lots of trial and error with finding the movements best suited for my structure and continually pushing heavier and heavier weights for reps to make significant progress with my physique.
 

xpoc

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You do realize that Shawn Ray won his pro card in 1987 as a light heavy at the top of the class (right smack dab in his best possible growing years) and over the next 14 years gained only 10-14 lbs so over 14 years he did ALL those workouts to gain .73 to 1 lb per year? If thats the route you want to take in your bodybuilding career, to do upwards of 260-312 workouts per year to gain less than a pound of muscle per year be my guest. Train 5 years to gain 4lbs of muscle? Screw that. You better look like a physical specimen at 17 years old like Shawn Ray did to make it work for you, because virtually everyone else who gains muscle mass at a sloths pace like that is not going to amount to a hill of beans as a bodybuilder.

Try doing that route with a 5'10 200 lb white guy with normal genetics and see what you end up with. 14 years later he weighs 212lbs and the only way he would ever be onstage next to other elite bodybuilders who are 5'10" (and probably 240-265lbs onstage) is if he was handed a broom to sweep it.

For the ability to walk upright and not in a wheel chair by age 50... yes.
 

juggy38

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For the ability to walk upright and not in a wheel chair by age 50... yes.

To play devils advocate...Dante would kick his top guy in the balls if he was hitting doubles with 800lbs on squat just to see if he could do it.

But you can safely take your 18 rep leg press pretty fucking heavy and stay safe. And there’s no free lunch. With mere mortal genetics, your gonna have to move some slag to be “Big”
 

alfresco

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. . . and over the next 14 years gained only 10-14 lbs so over 14 years he did ALL those workouts to gain .73 to 1 lb per year? If thats the route you want to take in your bodybuilding career, to do upwards of 260-312 workouts per year to gain less than a pound of muscle per year be my guest. Train 5 years to gain 4lbs of muscle? Screw that. You better look like a physical specimen at 17 years old like Shawn Ray did to make it work for you, because virtually everyone else who gains muscle mass at a sloths pace like that is not going to amount to a hill of beans as a bodybuilder.

(y)

alfresco likes it when you chime in.

Excellent point, and one that it not mentioned, talked about enough. It really puts things
in perspective. Is all this training (even if you like . . . could you be something more helpful?),
drugs, dieting, supplements, heavy weights really worth these measly gains?

I am not the best example but I made my best gains in the first 4 years of training and within
that time period, my best gains were made in 6 months, tops. And the gains after that were
slow to imperceptible (no PEDS) so I realized a treadmill when I was on one and got off and
trained for other reasons, essentially had fun, no stress, no injuries. I was still competitive
and disciplined within myself but I knew a different routine, a different exercise, a change in
my diet; yes, for fat loss, not muscle gain. During my best years I grew no matter what or
when I grew and you will too if the stress, the signal is there to grow and you can grow . . .
but I digress.

To wrap things up, I think the hardest part is being happy with what you have and what you
were born with. We can't pick our parents so 'settling' my be the only logical answer, the only
sensible option available having tried everything else short of letting a rattlesnake bit me in
the arm to gain some size, which it would and no doubt some people would be willing to try
this even if the gain are only temporary. Settling is not a bad word. It means (to me) that
you have taken a mental and physical inventory of your strengths and weaknesses and
determined how and where you want to spend your time and what are you will to give up
if you chose to, attempt to, change something that is really out of your control. Again, is
it worth the time and effort.

Only you can answer that. And there is no right or wrong answer.
 

xpoc

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To play devils advocate...Dante would kick his top guy in the balls if he was hitting doubles with 800lbs on squat just to see if he could do it.

But you can safely take your 18 rep leg press pretty fucking heavy and stay safe. And there’s no free lunch. With mere mortal genetics, your gonna have to move some slag to be “Big”


Yeah, I am all about adding reps. Listen I am not by any means questioning these guys. Dante could be the most respected trainer of huge bodybuilders walking the plant. And Jordan is 5'6" 308 lbs of solid muscle. I was merely making an observation about Jordan's comments where he essentially dismisses the mind/muscle connection. And how he glosses over progression through additional reps or training density while instead spending 99% of the time talking about the need to add LBS to the bar. I joined instagram just to follow him, Dusty and some of the mass monsters.

I clearly understand there are more ways than one to skin a cat. And for the purpose of creating more mass, doing what Jordan is doing is IMO the most effective. I saw on instagram where someone asked him what his goal was...was he trying to win bodybuilding contests and his answer was something along the lines of being the biggest and strongest bodybuilder for his height. He never mentioned winning anything and even agreed that the biggest and BEST are two completely separate animals.

Which is why I made my comment about IF I had to do it all over again and IF I wanted to be a pro bodybuilder, I would have followed the Lee Haney, Shawn Ray or even Frank Zane style of training. Which is also why I answered Dante's ? like I did. Example: Ask a bodybuilder if he would:

A- train like Shawn or Bob Paris, Haney, Zane, become a top pro...maybe even win the Olympia and be able to do so for decades and remain healthy into old age
OR
B- train like Peters or Dusty (for example), become one of the most massive pros, a true MASS monster...maybe not win an Olympia and HOPE you are healthy and mobile in your old age.

I think most people would opt for A. And I think the hardcore fringe (Jordan being an example) would say, F-IT I want to be a beast regardless of the judges, regardless of my health at age 50. And I would never question his decision. That is his goal. Good for him.

It reminds me of a quote from the book "Confessions of an Unlikely Bodybuilder." I might not have this perfect cuz I am going off memory: “growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell and modern bodybuilders.”

Essentially, there is a price to pay for growing HUGE. And that price is typically your health. But, what if you could get big enough, refine the physique, win some titles AND live a long healthy life?

I know I digressed from my OP. For me right now, YES I would like to add some muscle and I will likely be employing much of what I have learned from Dante's writings. And I likely won't be using the extreme mindset of Jordan who is hitting triples and sets of 4. I follow Dante's ideology about raising rep ranges as we age which is where I am at.
 

thethinker48

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Yeah, I am all about adding reps. Listen I am not by any means questioning these guys. Dante could be the most respected trainer of huge bodybuilders walking the plant. And Jordan is 5'6" 308 lbs of solid muscle. I was merely making an observation about Jordan's comments where he essentially dismisses the mind/muscle connection. And how he glosses over progression through additional reps or training density while instead spending 99% of the time talking about the need to add LBS to the bar. I joined instagram just to follow him, Dusty and some of the mass monsters.

I clearly understand there are more ways than one to skin a cat. And for the purpose of creating more mass, doing what Jordan is doing is IMO the most effective. I saw on instagram where someone asked him what his goal was...was he trying to win bodybuilding contests and his answer was something along the lines of being the biggest and strongest bodybuilder for his height. He never mentioned winning anything and even agreed that the biggest and BEST are two completely separate animals.

Which is why I made my comment about IF I had to do it all over again and IF I wanted to be a pro bodybuilder, I would have followed the Lee Haney, Shawn Ray or even Frank Zane style of training. Which is also why I answered Dante's ? like I did. Example: Ask a bodybuilder if he would:

A- train like Shawn or Bob Paris, Haney, Zane, become a top pro...maybe even win the Olympia and be able to do so for decades and remain healthy into old age
OR
B- train like Peters or Dusty (for example), become one of the most massive pros, a true MASS monster...maybe not win an Olympia and HOPE you are healthy and mobile in your old age.

I think most people would opt for A. And I think the hardcore fringe (Jordan being an example) would say, F-IT I want to be a beast regardless of the judges, regardless of my health at age 50. And I would never question his decision. That is his goal. Good for him.

It reminds me of a quote from the book "Confessions of an Unlikely Bodybuilder." I might not have this perfect cuz I am going off memory: “growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell and modern bodybuilders.”

Essentially, there is a price to pay for growing HUGE. And that price is typically your health. But, what if you could get big enough, refine the physique, win some titles AND live a long healthy life?

I know I digressed from my OP. For me right now, YES I would like to add some muscle and I will likely be employing much of what I have learned from Dante's writings. And I likely won't be using the extreme mindset of Jordan who is hitting triples and sets of 4. I follow Dante's ideology about raising rep ranges as we age which is where I am at.

All of this is contingent on the person having the genetics first

Unless he was given the tools from mom and dad; it's very unlikely it will happen

Nowadays you might get a pro card, but there's a stark difference between a pro card and pro caliber physique (Shawn, Bon Paris, Haney...etc)
 

juggy38

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Yeah, I am all about adding reps. Listen I am not by any means questioning these guys. Dante could be the most respected trainer of huge bodybuilders walking the plant. And Jordan is 5'6" 308 lbs of solid muscle. I was merely making an observation about Jordan's comments where he essentially dismisses the mind/muscle connection. And how he glosses over progression through additional reps or training density while instead spending 99% of the time talking about the need to add LBS to the bar. I joined instagram just to follow him, Dusty and some of the mass monsters.

I clearly understand there are more ways than one to skin a cat. And for the purpose of creating more mass, doing what Jordan is doing is IMO the most effective. I saw on instagram where someone asked him what his goal was...was he trying to win bodybuilding contests and his answer was something along the lines of being the biggest and strongest bodybuilder for his height. He never mentioned winning anything and even agreed that the biggest and BEST are two completely separate animals.

Which is why I made my comment about IF I had to do it all over again and IF I wanted to be a pro bodybuilder, I would have followed the Lee Haney, Shawn Ray or even Frank Zane style of training. Which is also why I answered Dante's ? like I did. Example: Ask a bodybuilder if he would:

A- train like Shawn or Bob Paris, Haney, Zane, become a top pro...maybe even win the Olympia and be able to do so for decades and remain healthy into old age
OR
B- train like Peters or Dusty (for example), become one of the most massive pros, a true MASS monster...maybe not win an Olympia and HOPE you are healthy and mobile in your old age.

I think most people would opt for A. And I think the hardcore fringe (Jordan being an example) would say, F-IT I want to be a beast regardless of the judges, regardless of my health at age 50. And I would never question his decision. That is his goal. Good for him.

It reminds me of a quote from the book "Confessions of an Unlikely Bodybuilder." I might not have this perfect cuz I am going off memory: “growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell and modern bodybuilders.”

Essentially, there is a price to pay for growing HUGE. And that price is typically your health. But, what if you could get big enough, refine the physique, win some titles AND live a long healthy life?

I know I digressed from my OP. For me right now, YES I would like to add some muscle and I will likely be employing much of what I have learned from Dante's writings. And I likely won't be using the extreme mindset of Jordan who is hitting triples and sets of 4. I follow Dante's ideology about raising rep ranges as we age which is where I am at.


Yea I didn’t read your post as not thinking that is a good way. What I’ve taken away from Dante over the years is progressive overload and recoverable volume.

Yes, volume progression is a way to overload. Mike Isratel is a pretty big damn guy and uses RIR and waves volume. BUT even in his mesos, the last 2-3 weeks he’s going 1-2 reps short of failure and the last week hitting failure.

If you TRULY know where failure is, yes 1–2 reps shy of failure will work fine. But after a hard day at work, your mind will tell you 7 reps is 2 RIR, where honestly if someone slapped your momma, you cloud get 11 reps.

So Dante and JP thought process, always have that mindset. Wreck those two row sets with malice and hatred in your heart. And move to pulldowns. Where mike wouldnwant you to do 4 HARD sets

My job as a nurse with this Covid shit, I had to move away from DC right now. My mind and heart doesn’t habe that ability right now. So I added a few sets, but kept them pretty damn hard

When I get to a place where I have enough emotional gas after a shift, I will go back to lower volume.
 

brutus69

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win the birth lottery, add tons more drugs than 80's bb'ers did, and it dont matter how u work out.
shawn ray v some 300lb guy who does rest pause?
is the workout takin credit or is it the 3x the drugs and gh and insulin?
 

DOGGCRAPP

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Example: Ask a bodybuilder if he would:

A- train like Shawn or Bob Paris, Haney, Zane, become a top pro...maybe even win the Olympia and be able to do so for decades and remain healthy into old age
OR
B- train like Peters or Dusty (for example), become one of the most massive pros, a true MASS monster...maybe not win an Olympia and HOPE you are healthy and mobile in your old age.

I think most people would opt for A.

Thats not a fair question in the least! You are using Bob Paris who had 1 in a million genetics, Shawn Ray who was a specimen at 17, Frank Zane who had incredible symmetry and Lee Haney who was a genetic freakazoid with a massive back and small waist and comparing them to Dusty (5th place in his class at a Washington amateur show with a genetically wider waist) and Jordan who wont win any symmetry contests? Do you know how many people trained like Bob Paris to look like Bob Paris and NEVER even came close to looking like Bob Paris? About 99.99% of the people who tried to emulate Bob Paris's training. You cannot compare genetically gifted people to non genetically gifted people training wise and use that as a matter of fact statement. Do you think Nasser if he trained like Flex Wheeler would have ended up with the beautiful physique of Flex Wheeler? Not a chance. So what do genetically deficient people need to do? They need to get so darn large that they bulldoze over people who were gifted with god given genetics.....to make up the difference onstage. People keep bringing up Ronnie being in a wheelchair...well thats Ronnie. He trained heavy as hell with what i would say "not the greatest form" and with ballistic movements. How is that anyones fault but Ronnie? If someone wants to skirt the safety zone and do doubles and triples and ballistic movements....then I fully expect for things not to go well longterm. Its not if "but when" in that matter.

But Shawn Rays weak spots were his back width, his shoulder width, his leg sweep....all areas he could have afforded to put on muscle mass. He always says "i didnt want to ruin my physique"...I havent seen a guy yet who had shoulders too wide, lats too wide, or quads with way too big of a sweep.
This isnt an all or nothing argument. You just cant take genetically gifted guys and say "see...." just like I cant say "every one of you guys reading this will have arms like Nick Walker if you do the exact same movements/routine he does"......it doesnt work like that.
Training heavy is not a blanket statement. Some guys train heavy and progressively with ultra strict 'non ballistic" form and put on gobs of muscle and have a productive injury free career. Branch Warren trained heavy and ballistically and tore a lat, both triceps, a bicep and a quad. Is that because of heavy or that choppy ballistic form? Francis Benfatto had a beautiful shape and suffered a horrendous pec tear that royally messed up his physique. Berry Demey did also, Toney Freeman tore his pec, Chris Cormier tore his tricep, Milos tore his quad......shape bodybuilders......this is bodybuilding and nobody said that years and years of putting lbs of iron on a steel bar and repeating it over and over was going to be totally safe. It will never be totally safe.
 

danieltx

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Thats not a fair question in the least! You are using Bob Paris who had 1 in a million genetics, Shawn Ray who was a specimen at 17, Frank Zane who had incredible symmetry and Lee Haney who was a genetic freakazoid with a massive back and small waist and comparing them to Dusty (5th place in his class at a Washington amateur show with a genetically wider waist) and Jordan who wont win any symmetry contests?

I typed this exact same post yesterday but let it go. Thanks for saying what needs to be said.
 

Cv215

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Who just likes lifting heavy as fuck, ALL THE TIME, and always trying to add weight and/or reps and get stronger regardless of if it's the most effective training protocol for building muscle? This is the shit that makes me want to bring my ass to the gym.
 

xpoc

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Alright, the last thing I wanted to do was poke the bear with this. I would never try to argue against Dante. Nobody has had more influence on my training than he has when it comes to rest pause, progressive overload etc. My initial post was a legit question with discussion as to how to explain how RP sets could be more effective than straight sets. I totally understand that truly massive guys have got that way using massive weights.

But, in my defense...I have been in and out of SoCal gyms since 1984. I have seen many very gifted bodybuilders train: Shawn Ray, Boyer Coe, Zane, Dennis Newman, Troy Z., etc. and these were very strong men. I never saw any of them train with the bone crushing poundages of the guys I mentioned who are hardwired to always add lbs to the bar (Jordan as an example). As much as you say it is an unfair comparison on my part, I would argue that it is unfair to say that every single one of these guys were successful primarily due to genetics. They all trained very hard, but these guys did not move the slag iron I see Jordan move for example. Instead they did focused on mind/muscle connection, often times for very high reps, moving quickly between exercises. Lee Haney did rows with 185 lbs for example and build a huge back. Of course they were also among the strongest guys in the gym, but the numbers on the bar seemed to be an afterthought as they were generally pumping out reps, squeezing, and moving quickly from exercise to exercise. I don't keep up with these guys, but the last time I checked they seemed to be still in good health, and moving around well for years and years after their competitive careers were over. Some of the slag iron mass monsters...using Ronnie as an example, there is clearly a price to pay. I merely said that is a price I would never want to pay. And that mindset is exactly why everyone knows who he is and why nobody knows who I am. I get it.
 

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