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Rest/Pause DC style vs Straight Sets discussion

DOGGCRAPP

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But your making a blanket statement again. Why is Ronnie the definition of training heavy? My definition of training heavy is much different than people who train ballistically. I dont believe in training ballistically over the longterm. I believe training heavy can mean 20 reps, 12 reps, 8 reps, 16 reps.....I dont feel Ronnie holds the definition of "training heavy" in the dictionary. When i saw that 800lb deadlift for 2 and 800lb squat for 2 I was so gdamn impressed, it was ungodly... do you know what I also thought? Man why the heck would you ever take a chance like that (especially 5 weeks out from a show)? Its a bad ending waiting to happen. I guess it comes down to this....who do you believe owns the "training heavy" definition. Ive told JP and Dusty multiple times now I wish they would up their rep range because I feel they will eventually get injured and this is a simple fact: a 495lb squat you have never done before for 20 reps is insanely impressive and builds muscle mass....Dusty is starting to listen to me. Jordan....he followed my stretch under load recommendations but its hard to get him to raise his rep ranges. Ill keep working on him. ......But i just dont think you can lump all this stuff together because a guy who deadlifts a good amount of weight for 20 reps (to me anyway) is just as impressive as a guy who does a double or triple.....and most likely is building just as much if not more muscle mass.

In simple terms if XPOC because of Covid or some other circumstances (injuries/equipment/ etc) can only do front smith barbell presses for his shoulders....and XPOC feels that doing sets of 16-20 reps is a safe range he can train in to not get injured....guess what? The only way you are going to get larger over a lengthy amount of time is by using greater and greater amount of weight in that 16-20 rep range you have deemed safe for yourself. If you decide to stay with the exact weight that you trained with today for 18 reps for the next 3 years I can promise you that 3 years from now when you do that weight again for 18 reps for the 150th time.....your shoulders will be right about the exact same size they are today. There would be no reason whatsoever for your shoulders to adapt/get larger/to handle progressively increasing loads.
 

xpoc

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I clearly did not deliver my message as I intended. I totally agree with you re: rep ranges. I even said I am 50+ so I still employ rest/pause and progressive overload but I shoot for the rep ranges you mention 20-30+. What started this was me commenting on Jordan's interview where he essentially dismissed mind/muscle connection and although he mentioned other ways to create progression, it was clear he was laser focused on adding LBS to the bar. And if you were watching Ronnie deadlift and thought he was taking a chance, check out Jordan hitting triples in deficit RDL's. YIKES...impressive and scary as hell.

ALL THAT SAID, I still believe there are more ways than one to skin a cat. I believe Jordan (and to some degree Dusty) are focused solely on adding pounds to the bar. So I was using examples of many many successful pros who didn't focus on adding pounds. And they (general statement) did believe in the importance of the mind/muscle connection OVER adding pounds to the bar. I don't believe you can paint all these pros with a broad brush and attribute their success to genetics. This is a different ideology than Jordan obviously. So my point was, if you could have your cake (winning titles) and eat it too (living a long healthy life) I would opt for that style of training over what the guys who primarily focus on adding progression primarily through LBS. I believe the latter are more likely to incur debilitating long term injuries with no guarantee of winning a title.
 

homonunculus

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I clearly did not deliver my message as I intended. I totally agree with you re: rep ranges. I even said I am 50+ so I still employ rest/pause and progressive overload but I shoot for the rep ranges you mention 20-30+. What started this was me commenting on Jordan's interview where he essentially dismissed mind/muscle connection and although he mentioned other ways to create progression, it was clear he was laser focused on adding LBS to the bar. And if you were watching Ronnie deadlift and thought he was taking a chance, check out Jordan hitting triples in deficit RDL's. YIKES...impressive and scary as hell.

ALL THAT SAID, I still believe there are more ways than one to skin a cat. I believe Jordan (and to some degree Dusty) are focused solely on adding pounds to the bar. So I was using examples of many many successful pros who didn't focus on adding pounds. And they (general statement) did believe in the importance of the mind/muscle connection OVER adding pounds to the bar. I don't believe you can paint all these pros with a broad brush and attribute their success to genetics. This is a different ideology than Jordan obviously. So my point was, if you could have your cake (winning titles) and eat it too (living a long healthy life) I would opt for that style of training over what the guys who primarily focus on adding progression primarily through LBS. I believe the latter are more likely to incur debilitating long term injuries with no guarantee of winning a title.

Hey XPOC!

I thought I'd toss this in here, as I suspect the context and Fouad's perspective in that interview may have given you a false impression of Jordan's take on "mind muscle connection" and focus on ensuring that the target muscle is indeed where the stress of a given movement / exercise is focused.

I can say with essentially absolute certainty that - from knowing Jordan personally, training with him, innumerable conversations, coaching him (I consider it more of a partnership, but that's the going terminology) as Dante's official "DC Training Guy" back in the day and thereafter as well, and as a member of his site, etc. that progression of the load on the bar without progression of the load / stress on the intended muscle is antithetical to his training approach. I don't want to speak for Jordan, but this I'm pretty certain of.

As far as not increasing reps, again my take from the above... that's kind of an obvious thing that will happen, but he generally prefers to stay within rep ranges, so the load will increase within the rep ranges he's chosen (for various reasons). Consider this: Logically, there HAS to be some increase in reps if one is to know that the load should be increased assuming that one's not gauging progress on and RPE or RIR scale or some something of the sort. In other words, training efforts the same, an increase in a rep or two will occur and, given the range / parameters one has in mind, then the load would follow to keep reps within whatever range / parameters one's working with, i.e., the weight would go up in line with the theory of progressive overload.

As far as those super heavy deads and presses in the <5 rep range, I think he does those because it's fucking fun and you only live once. (He knows he can't do this for too many more years.) Also, there's something to "touching" those heavy loads that has a psychological / neurological carry over when the loads are lightened, either in a given workout (this could be a function post-activation potentiation if the rest intervals are shorter) or generally speaking, as a way of training the mind for the approach he takes. (Fouad is an example of someone who knowingly has psychological barriers / blocks when it comes to certain weights, e.g., 4 plates on presses (I think he's said), etc. It's been a while since I listened to that interview, but Jordan's take on load progression as expressed there could be in part d/t Fouad's reticence and astonishment at Jordan's relative fearlessness and how that's actually been a successful ingredient for him as he's applied to progressive overload...)

Anyway, Jordan KNOWs (b/c he's always riding fine line of potential injury) that if he just ignored all else other than increasing weight on the bar, he'd be seriously fucked up pretty quickly. This is another reason (injury prevention) why he's laser focused on execution to create a hypertrophic stimulus vs. moving weight come hell or high water...

-Scott
 

andishehhank

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I like the adage, "as heavy as possible, for as many reps as possible." I believe Ronnie said this and what he meant was 10-15 reps to failure every set, and progressively overload after your muscle mass increases. He was a volume trainer so what we say here is also using back off sets. At the beginning of his workouts he did a true one set to failure then for the rest of the session he would use lower weights to stick to 10-15 reps.

I also believe he would pyramid down in reps during his exercises.
 

Ace0

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A bit off topic but anyone here try the Trained by JP programs? He advocates RP most of the time but it differs a bit. How does it compare to regular DC? Which do you prefer?
 

headtrainer

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I’ve tried everything and straight sets are the safest & most effective way to train. Training beyond failure with pause & forced reps work, but they limit the total volume you can perform and they put you at an increased risk of injury. The key with straight sets is to apply the proper volume and intensity for your individualistic needs while remaining injury free. If you get an injury, you can’t train consistently to make muscle gains. In the end, a persons genetics is the primary factor in how big & string they can get, not a particular routine. The biggest bodybuilder at my gym is a black guy who does high volume & only light-moderate weights. He reminds me of Arnold back in the 80’s. Small waist and large muscle bellies! He never lifts heavy because he’s a police officer and doesn’t want to get hurt. Now the strongest guy in my gym is also black. He’s approximately 325lbs and he’s big and strong all over. He does 455lbs for 12 reps on the bench like it’s nothing and he’s ALL natural. I can’t even press that much weight once while taking test and anadrol. He does more socializing than working out, yet he’s that massive. He never gets injured because he never trains hard enough to hurt himself. Bodybuilding and powerlifting is largely genetics!
 

jeffy96

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A bit off topic but anyone here try the Trained by JP programs? He advocates RP most of the time but it differs a bit. How does it compare to regular DC? Which do you prefer?

Jordan does not solely advoate RP sets but he utilises them for a couple of sets in his workout as intensity techniques. He also incorporates muscle rounds from FT aswell. His general philosophy is 1 top set done to failure in 5-8 rep range and 1-2 back-off sets to failure in the 11-15 rep range. Ocassionaly that back off set might be a rest pause set.
 

Bobik

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Jordan does not solely advoate RP sets but he utilises them for a couple of sets in his workout as intensity techniques. He also incorporates muscle rounds from FT aswell. His general philosophy is 1 top set done to failure in 5-8 rep range and 1-2 back-off sets to failure in the 11-15 rep range. Ocassionaly that back off set might be a rest pause set.
First top set 5-8 to failure is straight set? Thnx bro
 

juggy38

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Most of JPs guys utilize the top set, then a backoff. On some leg stuff JP recommends hitting the 15-20 set FIRST, then a heavy 8-10.

I can’t Leg press 11-12 plates per side so my injury potiential is not as great as his. But I do adductor 15-18 first then a 10-12 as pulling an adductor would SUCK
 

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