SHBG: Good or bad?

Newman · Jul 28, 2009

Hi everybody.

I've been reading up a little on ways to reduce SHBG lately & I've read some interesting stuff about herbs like stinging nettle & avena sativa etc.

Anyway, from what I've read, we generally view SHBG as being something that inhibits gains by binding AAS & thereby depriving muscle cells free access to free test etc.

So, my questions about SHBG & AAS transport in the larger sense, is basically what evidence do we as informal students of endocrinology that SHBG is a bad thing?

After all, if SHBG is our natural hormone transport method, are we unwittingly reducing AAS transport by reducing the hormone carrier? (SHBG)

Another issue is the strength of binding between SHBG & AAS versus albumin. (sp?)

For example, I've read that SHBG locks up hormones pretty tightly, but albumin (sp?) binds hormones loosely. Perhaps chemical messages are released from torn muscle tissue that cause SHBG and/or albumin to release healing hormones. If albumin releases hormones easier than SHBG, then perhaps albumin is mean more as a fast release carrier & SHBG is meant more as a slow release carrier.

I found an interesting thread that has one guy arguing that SHBG enhances hormone transport, while another bro argues the opposite. Both guys seem to know what they are talking about, so I'm interested in getting your guys opinion on it:

http://www.elitefitness.com/bodybuilding/anabolic-steroids/04-2001/060462.html

Hopefully, Macro, IPrimate & DatBTrue will offer their expert input.

Thanx!

Thewhite9t · Jul 29, 2009

I am interested in this too. There is so much contradictory info out there about it.

If it doesn't increase as test increases, then why would it be responsible for hindering gains during long cycles? Why do we need to lower it so bad?

Jasthace · Jul 29, 2009

I was under the impression that once a hormone binds to SHBG ,it was bound for good and unable to bind to its receptor.

Newman · Jul 29, 2009

Thewhite9t said:
I am interested in this too. There is so much contradictory info out there about it.

Did you read the thread I linked to? Significant difference of opinion, I'd say...

If it doesn't increase as test increases, then why would it be responsible for hindering gains during long cycles? Why do we need to lower it so bad?

Good point!

I'm thinking that you must've read the other thread because one bro there claimed that SHBG does NOT increase with AAS increase, but I'm pretty sure that I remember another bro here saying that SHBG increases as hormones increase. (that makes more sense 2 me, but what do I know?)

.

unoigo · Jul 29, 2009

Here's some good reading for ya..... great topic btw!

**broken link removed**

Blade_HST · Jul 29, 2009

SHBG doesn't bind hormones (mainly testosterone and estradiol) permanently, it's more of a regulator which releases it to control levels. Androgens will decrease SHBG, estrogens (or aromatizables) will increase SHBG. Usually on a properly setup AAS cycle, SHBG will decrease - bumping up both free testosterone and estradiol into circulation. This is why non-aromatizables can cause gyno, it imbalances the androgen:estrogen ratio.

Some research also shows that an SHBG-androgen bound complex can activate their own set of receptors, don't have the references off-hand.

Stewie Griffon · Jul 29, 2009

there is some info one one of DAT's threads about nettle root extract standardized for divanil being effective at binding to SHBG. this should yield higher free test levels. i will post a link to the thread when i find it (as we all know DAT's thread are like 100 pages long so it make take a while

)

Newman · Jul 29, 2009

Blade_HST said:
SHBG doesn't bind hormones (mainly testosterone and estradiol) permanently, it's more of a regulator which releases it to control levels.

That's what I think too, but I'm not sure how that impacts BB chem strategy.

Androgens will decrease SHBG, estrogens (or aromatizables) will increase SHBG. Usually on a properly setup AAS cycle, SHBG will decrease - bumping up both free testosterone and estradiol into circulation. This is why non-aromatizables can cause gyno, it imbalances the androgen:estrogen ratio.

Isn't test an androgen? Test aromatises, so when you say that aromatizables increase SHBG, while androgens decrease SHBG, I'm thinking there's some contradiction in there. That contradiction is based on my belief that test is an adrogen & I may be wrong, so maybe there's no contradiction at all.

I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm just ignorant & confused, that's why I asked for peoples' help in understanding this issue.

Some research also shows that an SHBG-androgen bound complex can activate their own set of receptors, don't have the references off-hand.

That's interesting. I hope you remember where you read that. Others are probably interested too.

.

Jasthace · Jul 30, 2009

Blade_HST said:
SHBG doesn't bind hormones (mainly testosterone and estradiol) permanently, it's more of a regulator which releases it to control levels. .

Oh..so if you have sufficient Free test,it may stay bound?

Blade_HST · Jul 31, 2009

Until it's needed, yes. Ofc this is under endogenous conditions, when you use AAS everything changes.

iprimate · Aug 1, 2009

Blade_HST said:
Some research also shows that an SHBG-androgen bound complex can activate their own set of receptors, don't have the references off-hand.

[1][2]

iprimate · Aug 1, 2009

Newman said:
Isn't test an androgen? Test aromatises, so when you say that aromatizables increase SHBG, while androgens decrease SHBG, I'm thinking there's some contradiction in there. That contradiction is based on my belief that test is an adrogen & I may be wrong, so maybe there's no contradiction at all.

Yes testosterone is an androgen and it aromatises so if you take it without an AI the testosrone will tend to decrease the SHBG but the estrogen from the aromatisation will tend to increase the SHBG. There is no contradiction. You seem to have overlooked an important point that Blade_HST made so I will restate it.

Some AAS having a high binding affiinity for SHBG relative to estradiol. These AAS in effect compete with estradiol for the opportunity to bind to the SHBG. By binding to SHBG these AAS displace bound estradiol and put it into a free state where it can bind to the estrogen receptor causing gynecomastia. In this way you can get gynecomastia even if you are using non-aromatisable AAS. Two non-aromatisable AAS that have a high binding affinity for the SHBG are fluoxymesterone (in high doses)(Halotestin) and dromostanolone (Masteron).

Newman · Aug 1, 2009

Thanks IPrimate.

iprimate said:
Yes testosterone is an androgen and it aromatises so if you take it without an AI the testosrone will tend to decrease the SHBG but the estrogen from the aromatisation will tend to increase the SHBG.

So what happens to SHBG when test is taken WITH an AI?

There is no contradiction. You seem to have overlooked an important point that Blade_HST made so I will restate it.

Some AAS having a high binding affiinity for SHBG relative to estradiol. These AAS in effect compete with estradiol for the opportunity to bind to the SHBG.

Wouldn't those AAS that have a higher binding affinity for SHBG also have a higher binding affinity for the aromatase enzyme?

By binding to SHBG these AAS displace bound estradiol and put it into a free state where it can bind to the estrogen receptor causing gynecomastia.

Wouldn't using an AI & a SERM avoid that?

In this way you can get gynecomastia even if you are using non-aromatisable AAS.

I wonder if anyone has ever got gyno from releasing stored estradiol by using nettle root extract. Apparently they say that nettle root "decreases" SHBG, so I'm not sure if they mean that it inhibits production of SHBG or negates its' effect by binding to it?

Two non-aromatisable AAS that have a high binding affinity for the SHBG are fluoxymesterone (in high doses)(Halotestin) and dromostanolone (Masteron).

Some time back, someone posted a table here that was taken from Anabolics 2006. The table showed the relative SHBG binding affinity of most common AAS. IIRC it ranked Mibolerone as #1, then Proviron as #2, but unfortunately, it never showed Masteron. Since Proviron is often called "oral Masteron", I can only assume that Masteron must have considerable SHBG binding affinity.

Someone recently posted a link to a free download of the latest edition of Anabolics (2009, I think). If anyone reading this thread downloaded that recent edition of Anabolics, would you please take a look to see if there is another SHBG affinity table & see if they included Masteron in it this time?

It would be great to have a solid number showing Masterons' SHBG binding affinity.

I'm thinking of trying nettle root for countering SHBG. Anyone ever tried it?

machola · Aug 1, 2009

Newman said:
Thanks IPrimate.

I'm thinking of trying nettle root for countering SHBG. Anyone ever tried it?

i posted that list. but i think mesterolone(proviron) was #1

i tried nettle root in the past. waste of money... if someone wanted to lower SHBG; proviron, insulin, larger amount of testosterone will be much more effective imo

Newman · Aug 1, 2009

machola said:
i posted that list. but i think mesterolone(proviron) was #1

i tried nettle root in the past. waste of money... if someone wanted to lower SHBG; proviron, insulin, larger amount of testosterone will be much more effective imo

I would love to know where masteron would place on the list.

Did you download the Anabolics 2009?

mikeyt869 · Aug 1, 2009

How many iu of humalog would be effective? Im assuming its lower than whats used post workout (10-12 iu).

iprimate · Aug 2, 2009

Newman said:
I would love to know where masteron would place on the list.

Did you download the Anabolics 2009?

Probably just under Proviron.

iprimate · Aug 2, 2009

machola said:
i posted that list. but i think mesterolone(proviron) was #1

i tried nettle root in the past. waste of money... if someone wanted to lower SHBG; proviron, insulin, larger amount of testosterone will be much more effective imo

I didn't get much from nettle root either.