Shoulder problem and exercise selection

[massnup]

Have been doing the DC 2 way for a while now but started having a nagging shoulder injury that has become worse over time, went to the chiro and he said it was inpingement. I was doing inclines for chest, incline hammer and seated incline cybex and now all those really hurt to do now and from the progress I've made on them and in my chest i'm afraid to give them up also the same with shoulders, and pressing movement kills the shoulder but laterals do not and upright rows do not... do I really need 3 exercises to do this rotation and will I lose the size gains I've made with these exercises If I switch to something else for a while? I can do dips and laterals, upright rows with no probs.

 

[maldorf]

Have been doing the DC 2 way for a while now but started having a nagging shoulder injury that has become worse over time, went to the chiro and he said it was inpingement. I was doing inclines for chest, incline hammer and seated incline cybex and now all those really hurt to do now and from the progress I've made on them and in my chest i'm afraid to give them up also the same with shoulders, and pressing movement kills the shoulder but laterals do not and upright rows do not... do I really need 3 exercises to do this rotation and will I lose the size gains I've made with these exercises If I switch to something else for a while? I can do dips and laterals, upright rows with no probs.

To start I would drop all overhead pressing. Just doing your presses for chest and the laterals for shoulders will be enough believe it or not. Probably overtraining that area too with all of that pressing. Phil Hernon is the man that convinced me to drop shoulder presses and Im glad that I did. I lost no size in my shoulders, but only got stronger. Prior to talking with him I was like you and experiencing all that pain and just kept pushing myself through it concinvced that if I dropped shoulder presses I would shrink.

 

[Jake LaMotta]

To start I would drop all overhead pressing. Just doing your presses for chest and the laterals for shoulders will be enough believe it or not. Probably overtraining that area too with all of that pressing. Phil Hernon is the man that convinced me to drop shoulder presses and Im glad that I did. I lost no size in my shoulders, but only got stronger. Prior to talking with him I was like you and experiencing all that pain and just kept pushing myself through it concinvced that if I dropped shoulder presses I would shrink.

Phil has forgotten more about training than I will ever know and I'm certainly not saying he's wrong...but I'm wondering why he is so anti-shoulder pressing? I have seen more than one thread where he advises against them. Shoulder presses are one of the big 6 (along with flat bench, row, pull ups, squats, and deads) and I would think they are an important exercise.

If you had to pick one or the other, do you think laterals will build your medial delts better than dumbbell shoulder presses? I'm not sure myself, that's why I'm asking because I'm always eager to learn

 

[robot]

Oddly (or maybe not so oddly), overhead pressing doesn't inflame my supraspinitus tendon very much at all. It isn't really engaged up there. Dips and Bench Press variations have to be done with careful attention to avoiding bad angles and no explosive movements, slow controlled and boring. The rotater cuff and the attached tendon actually engage in a very short range of motion before the delts almost entirely take over. If it hurts you'll know where not to push it.

Impingement means your supraspinitus tendon under the bone in the ac joint is swollen and there isn't enough room for it to move. It's a pretty basic problem that can only be resolved by reducing the inflammation or making more space in the channel by boring out the bone with surgery.

Ice, Ice, Ice. nsaids don't seem to work very well on the shoulder tendon (not much blood). A triple length 6" tensor can be used to get compression on the there. There is a youtube video that shows how.

Rest (yes I know it sucks) but you can't exercise your way out of impingement.

Once you bring the swelling down it's time for mobility work, strengthing up the rotater cuff muscles so you don't reinjure, more ice and slowly working your range of motion and strength back to normal.

Have I said I hate shoulders. Mine have always been a little wobbly.

 

[Johnny Smiles]

didn't read all of that post cuz the evidence of whats wrong is in first sentence: all incline moves. i will defend declines til the end lol. they activate more of the pec muscles and are FAR LESS likely to cause injury PLUS you can move more weight in the decline position. why not do them?!?! toss the inclines....
just my opinion of course. -JS

 

[Johnny Smiles]

Phil has forgotten more about training than I will ever know and I'm certainly not saying he's wrong...but I'm wondering why he is so anti-shoulder pressing? I have seen more than one thread where he advises against them. Shoulder presses are one of the big 6 (along with flat bench, row, pull ups, squats, and deads) and I would think they are an important exercise.

If you had to pick one or the other, do you think laterals will build your medial delts better than dumbbell shoulder presses? I'm not sure myself, that's why I'm asking because I'm always eager to learn

Phil is right. IMO. i only do laterals cuz i don't see the point in pressing. my front delts get worked in every chest pressing movement. to have symmetrical delts i think laterals make sense. they evenly disperse the weight to each head of the delt... plus, biomechanically speaking the delts raise the upper arm parallel to the ground so laterals isolate them the best without bringing in chest and triceps to assist them. laterls hit em directly IMO. i am no scientist lol but it seems to make sense to me and my delts are my freakiest part (tho i think that has FAR more to do with genetics than exercise choice)
-JS

 

[Johnny Smiles]

To start I would drop all overhead pressing. Just doing your presses for chest and the laterals for shoulders will be enough believe it or not. Probably overtraining that area too with all of that pressing. Phil Hernon is the man that convinced me to drop shoulder presses and Im glad that I did. I lost no size in my shoulders, but only got stronger. Prior to talking with him I was like you and experiencing all that pain and just kept pushing myself through it concinvced that if I dropped shoulder presses I would shrink.

X2
-JS

 

[Jake LaMotta]

Phil is right. IMO. i only do laterals cuz i don't see the point in pressing. my front delts get worked in every chest pressing movement. to have symmetrical delts i think laterals make sense. they evenly disperse the weight to each head of the delt... plus, biomechanically speaking the delts raise the upper arm parallel to the ground so laterals isolate them the best without bringing in chest and triceps to assist them. laterls hit em directly IMO. i am no scientist lol but it seems to make sense to me and my delts are my freakiest part (tho i think that has FAR more to do with genetics than exercise choice)
-JS

Are you saying that dumbbell shoulder presses don't hit the medial delts at all? If you think that, I totally disagree with you. They may not hit them as good as laterals but they still work them.

 

[Johnny Smiles]

Are you saying that dumbbell shoulder presses don't hit the medial delts at all? If you think that, I totally disagree with you. They may not hit them as good as laterals but they still work them.

NO, not saying that AT ALL. in simple terms, laterals isolate the delts the best therefore thats all i do and all i feel are necassary and my physique has not suffered AT ALL for tossing presses for delts. my shoulders are capped and just as big if not bigger due to increased isolation (no triceps helping out my delts, instead they must work all by themselves to lift the weight.) OCCASIONALLY I will do upright rows but thats maybe once a month or less.
-JS

 

[Jake LaMotta]

NO, not saying that AT ALL. in simple terms, laterals isolate the delts the best therefore thats all i do and all i feel are necassary and my physique has not suffered AT ALL for tossing presses for delts. my shoulders are capped and just as big if not bigger due to increased isolation (no triceps helping out my delts, instead they must work all by themselves to lift the weight.) OCCASIONALLY I will do upright rows but thats maybe once a month or less.
-JS

I 100% agree with you about laterals isolating the medial delts because they don't have triceps helping them lift the weight.

Johnny Smiles, I have read some of your posts and I must say you are one of the most knowledgeable people to post on this board. If you don't mind, can you post your workout routine or atleast a template you use? If you want, you can PM it to me rather than posting it here. If you don't feel comfortable sharing it with me, I totally understand.

 

[massnup]

didn't read all of that post cuz the evidence of whats wrong is in first sentence: all incline moves. i will defend declines til the end lol. they activate more of the pec muscles and are FAR LESS likely to cause injury PLUS you can move more weight in the decline position. why not do them?!?! toss the inclines....
just my opinion of course. -JS

What poundage do you work with on declines and dips and how much of a decline do you use?

 

[KTT]

NO, not saying that AT ALL. in simple terms, laterals isolate the delts the best therefore thats all i do and all i feel are necassary and my physique has not suffered AT ALL for tossing presses for delts. my shoulders are capped and just as big if not bigger due to increased isolation (no triceps helping out my delts, instead they must work all by themselves to lift the weight.) OCCASIONALLY I will do upright rows but thats maybe once a month or less.
-JS

Why not more upright rows ?
You can move more weight then with laterals an it is a compound movement.

 

[BigSwervin]

REST!!!!!!!!! I have had two surgeries to repair my shoulder in the past and rest is essential! I felt like i couldnt stop working out so i lightened up the weights but in hindsight i should have just given my shoulder the rest it really needed. Mine got so bad it would dislocate in my sleep, let me tell you thats one hellova way to get woke up! I also was playing football at the time so i can attribute alot to that variable of the equation.

 

[NY Muscle]

I have had surgery on both shoulders, it sucks and never get back to 100%. All my dr's that have treated me have told me when doing chest to not drop my elbows down below parallel, they don't really say not to do shoulder presses, if anything go with dumbbells but they were pretty strong on not going below parallel on chest exercises to prevent further shoulder issues. Also make sure to build up them traps.

 

[BigSwervin]

I would also consult a physical therapist, when i was doing rehab my pt gave me a shoulder routine with heavy elastic bands, very light weights, and something called a "body blade", these worked very well and i still incorporate them into my shoulder day....3 years later. The "body blade" looks like something a pusscake would use but it is no joke.

 

[Johnny Smiles]

Why not more upright rows ?
You can move more weight then with laterals an it is a compound movement.

i find my traps sometimes get worked alot. also find my brachialis? (forearm muscle) gets really taxed from these too and i am prone to injury in that area. wide grip with a barbell or with dumbells helps alot tho. my forearms are very injury prone. mainly my right one so laterals are best for me. -JS

 

[Johnny Smiles]

What poundage do you work with on declines and dips and how much of a decline do you use?

i am so weak for my size so will leave my poundages out. plus, i don't think the weight i use is a telling sign of how well somethiing works. if you isolate a muscle properly you will find yourself weaker than you would like but bigger muscles and better seperation in the end imo

i like to vary degree of decline. sometimes the 2nd notch in the bench sometimes the 4th notch. usually 3rd notch i think... not sure. -JS

 

[Jake LaMotta]

Johnny, I asked you about your workout routine in post #10. If it's Ok with you, do you mind sharing it?

 

[Pekkerwood]

Alfresco:

I've been doing those "wider" grip uprights to about chest level almost exclusively (i.e. no narrow grip uprights) with nice results. I do not lean forward, but I put a fair emphasis on not leaning back. I follow them with one arm "rows" on the Smith Machine standing sideways, gripping the bar just a bit behind even with my hip.

 

[Johnny Smiles]

Johnny, I asked you about your workout routine in post #10. If it's Ok with you, do you mind sharing it?

3 day split. 3 days on 1 day off.
i do a phil hernon workout with some tweaks of my own to suit me. don't know if its ok i give that info out but you can ask him of course.
for delts i do dumbell lateral raises 99% of the time. 3 sets only.
-JS