Slin before going on stage?

[dcvfnr]

Pictures of condition attained?

with nokia :headbang:

 

[Mike Arnold]

But some of Milos' athletes come in pretty darn dry?

...and they often don't. In fact, I have frequently seen clients leave Milos's care and then come in MUCH drier the following year while working with another coach (Wolf in 07' vs. Wolf in 08, for example).

Regardless, we can't judge the effects of last minute insulin use on stage condition simply be looking at bodybuilders. There are WAY too many variables involved. We must go deeper than that (see next post).

 

[KillerStack]

But some of Milos' athletes come in pretty darn dry?

I know 10 years ago Milos' plan included something like aldactazide several days out, might have been a week out even, I forget. Then after you have carbed up with insulin you drop a Bumex or other loop diuretic the night before (this was written down in Milos plan for Wolf in 2007). If I were to guess, this is still the set-up for guys like Chad, Milos, Hany, Aceto wrt to the diuretics. Someone in the current know can correct me if I'm wrong. So you gain a lot of water through insulin assisted carb up and then you attempt to flush out the excess with a loop diuretic and hope that the water is left in the right places.

Luke Sandoe was hospitalized recently due to a Dyazide/Lasix coctail. Though he said he didn't "follow everything" or it would have been even worse.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISvY2KyvkPA"]Elite bodybuilding genetics and laziness is KUWAIT`S secret:LUKE SANDOE - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Mike Arnold]

I do not agree that the best option is to leave the insulin outside. With the correct protocol will create a fantastic look without losing muscle separation.
Using it right before steping on stage could be dangerous, ive been using like 15uis from Humalog 3 4h before stage and the job was perfect

Creating greater fullness via insulin use may (I use the word "may" very carefully here) provide the illusion that water retention hasn't occurred, but this usually only takes place when the bodybuilder is flat. A flat muscle looks less separated an detailed than it actually is because the skin is not pulled taught against the muscles, thereby preventing the bodybuilder's from displaying his true condition. This is why diuretics overuse often makes bodybuilders look LESS conditioned. They end up getting so flat--and their skin so loose--that they can no longer see the same level of detail they had before. As a result, they end up looking less conditioned than before they took the diuretics.

On the other hand, a very full muscle presses outward against the skin, allowing the bodybuilder to more clearly see his true level of muscular detail.

Because of this, insulin can make one appear to look equally (and in some cases even more) conditioned, but as mentioned above, this typically only occurs in bodybuilders who are lacking muscle fullness. Ideally, muscle fullness should be attained without the use of insulin, as insulin always--always--causes subcutaneous water retention..and we all know that sub-q water retention DAMAGES condition. It never helps.

So, while some bodybuilders may appear to look better onstage with insulin use, this is because other aspects of their program were constructed improperly, leaving them flat and in dire need of muscle fullness. If the bodybuilder had done everything correctly up to that point there would be no need for insulin and he would have ended up even MORE conditioned. Unfortunately, many bodybuilder do end up flat in the days leading up to the show and then try to fix the problem with insulin use, but there is ALWAYS a trade-off. In such cases the bodybuilder may end up thinking that insulin made them look better (which may be true), but the full truth is that he would have looked even better if he never had a need for insulin-induced muscle fullness to begin with.


Again, insulin will ALWAYS cause some degree of water retention...and the higher the dose, the worse it will be (to a degree). This is not something that is disputable. It is a well established fact in the medical field and frequently encountered by practicing physicians.

Insulin's effect on sodium retention is the most likely cause. Thus far there has been significant debate regarding insulin's effect on sodium retention, with one faction believing that insulin does not cause sodium retention and another faction believing it does. Traditionally, both sides have been staunchly supportive of their position. Part of the reason for this divide is that many of the most relevant variables were not well studied, but we now realize that factors such as acute vs. chronic use, as well as insulin resistance and hyperglycemia, all play a role in insulin's ability to cause sodium retention and thus, sub-q fluid retention.

Recent research reveals that insulin indeed does have a antinatriuretic effect, but that it is more likely to occur--and to a much greater degree--with acute use. Furthermore, both insulin resistance and hyperglycemia appear to exacerbate the condition.

Therefore, bodybuilders are at greatest risk of developing sub-q water retention when using fast-acting insulin shortly before a show. Whether one uses it right before going onstage, or in the days immediately leading up to the show doesn't matter, as both would be classified as "acute" use.

Unfortunately, many bodybuilder, due to GH and insulin abuse, suffer from insulin resistance and hyperglycemia, which, in the presence of elevated insulin levels, leads to even greater sodium retention.

One should also consider the effect that carb-loading typically has on blood glucose levels. Many bodybuilders routinely consume 800-1,000+ grams of carbs per day for 1-3 days before a show. This certainly can, and most likely will lead to some degree of hyperglycemia (particularly if the bodybuilder is a GH user). When combined with insulin use, significant sub-q water retention is almost unavoidable. I have personally witnessed this time and time again while helping bodybuilders get ready for shows.


All of the above just further confirms my belief that fast-acting insulins are a POOR choice for a stage-ready bodybuilder. However, it does lend some credence to the theory that Lantus may cause less water retention in stage-ready bodybuilders, as it's slow release into the bloodstream will not cause an insulin spike and will therefore be less likely to cause the type of "acute" response associated with faster-acting insulins. Of course, the dose would need to remain very reasonable. Otherwise, you would just run into the same issue.

In conclusion, I stand by my belief that pre-stage insulin use is a BAD idea for most bodybuilders, particularly when Lantus is available. If someone desires to experiment with Lantus before I show, I suggest using it 72 hours out at a lowish' dose (25 iu or so) and see how it goes. If all goes well, you could try it again the following day--perhaps all the way until the day before the show, but due to insulin's propensity to cause sodium retention in the face of hyperglycemia, I recommend avoiding heavy carb-loads at this time.

Better yet, try to be as full as you need to be without having to use insulin. When I say you should try to be as full as you "need" to be, that doesn't mean maximum muscle fullness. It means you should only be as full as you need to be in order to achieve maximum conditioning. If you still desire to experiment with insulin at that point, be my guest, but I strongly recommend avoid fast-acting insulin and instead sticking with low-dose Lantus in combination with a SLIGHTLY above maintenance carb intake.




Effects of insulin on kidney function and sodium excretion in healthy subjects.

Skøtt P1, Hother-Nielsen O, Bruun NE, Giese J, Nielsen MD, Beck-Nielsen H, Parving HH.
Author information

Abstract
Insulin action on kidney function was evaluated in 8 healthy subjects, (mean age 27 years) using the euglycaemic clamp technique. Insulin was infused at rates of 0, 20 and 40 mU.min-1.m-2 over consecutive periods of 120 min resulting in plasma insulin concentrations of 8 +/- 2, 29 +/- 7 and 66 +/- 14 mU/l. The renal clearance of 51Cr-EDTA, lithium, sodium and potassium was determined during the last 90 min of each period. Sodium clearance declined with increasing plasma insulin concentrations (1.3 +/- 0.4, 1.0 +/- 0.3 and 0.5 +/- 0.2 ml.min-1.1.73 m-2, p less than 0.001), while glomerular filtration rate (108 +/- 21, 104 +/- 21 and 108 +/- 20 ml.min-1. 1.73 m-2) and lithium clearance (a marker of fluid flow rate from the proximal tubules) 29 +/- 5, 29 +/- 4 and 30 +/- 4 ml.min-1.1.73 m-2) remained unchanged. Calculated proximal tubular reabsorption of sodium and water was unchanged, while calculated distal fractional sodium reabsorption increased (95.5 +/- 1.5, 96.4 +/- 1.2 and 98.1 +/- 0.7%, p less than 0.001). Potassium clearance and plasma potassium concentration declined, whereas plasma aldosterone and plasma renin concentrations were unchanged. In conclusion, elevation of plasma insulin concentration within the physiological range has a marked antinatriuretic action. This effect is located distally to the proximal renal tubules.

PMID: 2676669
[Indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[Mike Arnold]

I know 10 years ago Milos' plan included something like aldactazide several days out, might have been a week out even, I forget. Then after you have carbed up with insulin you drop a Bumex or other loop diuretic the night before (this was written down in Milos plan for Wolf in 2007). If I were to guess, this is still the set-up for guys like Chad, Milos, Hany, Aceto wrt to the diuretics. Someone in the current know can correct me if I'm wrong. So you gain a lot of water through insulin assisted carb up and then you attempt to flush out the excess with a loop diuretic and hope that the water is left in the right places.

Luke Sandoe was hospitalized recently due to a Dyazide/Lasix coctail. Though he said he didn't "follow everything" or it would have been even worse.

Elite bodybuilding genetics and laziness is KUWAIT`S secret:LUKE SANDOE - YouTube

Blue-bold: Ironically, although Wolf is often praised for his 2007 look, this is only because he took a big step up that year in the competitive rankings. Many times since then (when he wasn't working with Milos) he has been FAR more conditioned. In fact, When Nichols took over in 2008 Wolf was MUCH harder and drier than in 2007--not even close, really. He may not have been as full, but his conditioning was far superior and as a result, he moved up in the Olympia placings.

Red-bold: Too bad it doesn't work that way, as diuretics are not selective in their actions. That sounds like a horrible plan to me.

 

[KillerStack]

Blue-bold: Ironically, although Wolf is often praised for his 2007 look, this is only because he took a big step up that year in the competitive rankings. Many times since then (when he wasn't working with Milos) he has been FAR more conditioned. In fact, When Nichols took over in 2008 Wolf was MUCH harder and drier than in 2007--not even close, really. He may not have been as full, but his conditioning was far superior and as a result, he moved up in the Olympia placings.

Red-bold: Too bad it doesn't work that way, as diuretics are not selective in their actions. That sounds like a horrible plan to me.

I agree with both points. In 2007 Wolf looked full and "healthy" (face looked healthy) and Milos likes this.
Subsequent years he was harder, granier and a bit "corpsy" looking in the face.

As far as diuretics go, they especially back-fire for guys who simply aren't lean enough, who often think the problem is water when in fact it's just fat. I think Luke tried to fix his conditioning with lots of diuretics but it doesn't work if you still hold fat, you'll look worse. Someone who is extremely lean may look scary lean with a bit of diuretic/dehydration.

 

[hilly2008]

Creating greater fullness via insulin use may (I use the word "may" very carefully here) provide the illusion that water retention hasn't occurred, but this usually only takes place when the bodybuilder is flat. A flat muscle looks less separated an detailed than it actually is because the skin is not pulled taught against the muscles, thereby preventing the bodybuilder's from displaying his true condition. This is why diuretics overuse often makes bodybuilders look LESS conditioned. They end up getting so flat--and their skin so loose--that they can no longer see the same level of detail they had before. As a result, they end up looking less conditioned than before they took the diuretics.

On the other hand, a very full muscle presses outward against the skin, allowing the bodybuilder to more clearly see his true level of muscular detail.

Because of this, insulin can make one appear to look equally (and in some cases even more) conditioned, but as mentioned above, this typically only occurs in bodybuilders who are lacking muscle fullness. Ideally, muscle fullness should be attained without the use of insulin, as insulin always--always--causes subcutaneous water retention..and we all know that sub-q water retention DAMAGES condition. It never helps.

So, while some bodybuilders may appear to look better onstage with insulin use, this is because other aspects of their program were constructed improperly, leaving them flat and in dire need of muscle fullness. If the bodybuilder had done everything correctly up to that point there would be no need for insulin and he would have ended up even MORE conditioned. Unfortunately, many bodybuilder do end up flat in the days leading up to the show and then try to fix the problem with insulin use, but there is ALWAYS a trade-off. In such cases the bodybuilder may end up thinking that insulin made them look better (which may be true), but the full truth is that he would have looked even better if he never had a need for insulin-induced muscle fullness to begin with.


Again, insulin will ALWAYS cause some degree of water retention...and the higher the dose, the worse it will be (to a degree). This is not something that is disputable. It is a well established fact in the medical field and frequently encountered by practicing physicians.

Insulin's effect on sodium retention is the most likely cause. Thus far there has been significant debate regarding insulin's effect on sodium retention, with one faction believing that insulin does not cause sodium retention and another faction believing it does. Traditionally, both sides have been staunchly supportive of their position. Part of the reason for this divide is that many of the most relevant variables were not well studied, but we now realize that factors such as acute vs. chronic use, as well as insulin resistance and hyperglycemia, all play a role in insulin's ability to cause sodium retention and thus, sub-q fluid retention.

Recent research reveals that insulin indeed does have a antinatriuretic effect, but that it is more likely to occur--and to a much greater degree--with acute use. Furthermore, both insulin resistance and hyperglycemia appear to exacerbate the condition.

Therefore, bodybuilders are at greatest risk of developing sub-q water retention when using fast-acting insulin shortly before a show. Whether one uses it right before going onstage, or in the days immediately leading up to the show doesn't matter, as both would be classified as "acute" use.

Unfortunately, many bodybuilder, due to GH and insulin abuse, suffer from insulin resistance and hyperglycemia, which, in the presence of elevated insulin levels, leads to even greater sodium retention.

One should also consider the effect that carb-loading typically has on blood glucose levels. Many bodybuilders routinely consume 800-1,000+ grams of carbs per day for 1-3 days before a show. This certainly can, and most likely will lead to some degree of hyperglycemia (particularly if the bodybuilder is a GH user). When combined with insulin use, significant sub-q water retention is almost unavoidable. I have personally witnessed this time and time again while helping bodybuilders get ready for shows.


All of the above just further confirms my belief that fast-acting insulins are a POOR choice for a stage-ready bodybuilder. However, it does lend some credence to the theory that Lantus may cause less water retention in stage-ready bodybuilders, as it's slow release into the bloodstream will not cause an insulin spike and will therefore be less likely to cause the type of "acute" response associated with faster-acting insulins. Of course, the dose would need to remain very reasonable. Otherwise, you would just run into the same issue.

In conclusion, I stand by my belief that pre-stage insulin use is a BAD idea for most bodybuilders, particularly when Lantus is available. If someone desires to experiment with Lantus before I show, I suggest using it 72 hours out at a lowish' dose (25 iu or so) and see how it goes. If all goes well, you could try it again the following day--perhaps all the way until the day before the show, but due to insulin's propensity to cause sodium retention in the face of hyperglycemia, I recommend avoiding heavy carb-loads at this time.

Better yet, try to be as full as you need to be without having to use insulin. When I say you should try to be as full as you "need" to be, that doesn't mean maximum muscle fullness. It means you should only be as full as you need to be in order to achieve maximum conditioning. If you still desire to experiment with insulin at that point, be my guest, but I strongly recommend avoid fast-acting insulin and instead sticking with low-dose Lantus in combination with a SLIGHTLY above maintenance carb intake.




Effects of insulin on kidney function and sodium excretion in healthy subjects.

Skøtt P1, Hother-Nielsen O, Bruun NE, Giese J, Nielsen MD, Beck-Nielsen H, Parving HH.
Author information

Abstract
Insulin action on kidney function was evaluated in 8 healthy subjects, (mean age 27 years) using the euglycaemic clamp technique. Insulin was infused at rates of 0, 20 and 40 mU.min-1.m-2 over consecutive periods of 120 min resulting in plasma insulin concentrations of 8 +/- 2, 29 +/- 7 and 66 +/- 14 mU/l. The renal clearance of 51Cr-EDTA, lithium, sodium and potassium was determined during the last 90 min of each period. Sodium clearance declined with increasing plasma insulin concentrations (1.3 +/- 0.4, 1.0 +/- 0.3 and 0.5 +/- 0.2 ml.min-1.1.73 m-2, p less than 0.001), while glomerular filtration rate (108 +/- 21, 104 +/- 21 and 108 +/- 20 ml.min-1. 1.73 m-2) and lithium clearance (a marker of fluid flow rate from the proximal tubules) 29 +/- 5, 29 +/- 4 and 30 +/- 4 ml.min-1.1.73 m-2) remained unchanged. Calculated proximal tubular reabsorption of sodium and water was unchanged, while calculated distal fractional sodium reabsorption increased (95.5 +/- 1.5, 96.4 +/- 1.2 and 98.1 +/- 0.7%, p less than 0.001). Potassium clearance and plasma potassium concentration declined, whereas plasma aldosterone and plasma renin concentrations were unchanged. In conclusion, elevation of plasma insulin concentration within the physiological range has a marked antinatriuretic action. This effect is located distally to the proximal renal tubules.

PMID: 2676669
[Indexed for MEDLINE]

Fantastic post


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