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Testicular atrophy and recovery

TNH

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I have never experienced any testicular atrophy before.
Does this mean I can recover my natural test more easily than someone who experiences atrophy?
I don't think I respond very well to AAS, is there any correlation between that and my lack of shrinkage?
 

hiflyer727

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Perhaps the lack of shrinkage may be due to bunk gear, your dosage was too low for it to occur, and/or the gear you were on.
 

Emery

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Your balls shrink because your natural production shuts down due to the exogenous test in your system... Like stated above, bunk gear or low dose would be my first guess... Good gear at an even moderate dose will shut your natural production down over time. Even some prohormones will do this.
 

TNH

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no, I think there was a misunderstanding.
I have had results with gear, I just don't think I respond as well as some do.
I gained quite a bit of weight with my first cycle.

All I am saying is my nuts don't shrink no matter what. I have heard of others mentioning their nuts don't shrink either, and I was just curious why some people's do and some don't.
I am wanting to know if it means that we recover more easily, and also if it means our bodies are not utilizing the drugs as well as other people(nut shrinkers) are.
 

Jim550

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I really do not think there is any correlation between the two and have never heard otherwise. And more details would be needed like if run hcg or nolv/clomid throughout ur past cycles, or if you have only done a couple cycles. And not getting good results after your first I guarantee is one of three problems: the gear, your training, or your diet....
 

BigSwole

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A buddy of mine was getting his stuff from the same place I was and claimed he had zero shrinkage. He gave me back the HCG I got him because he didn't need it to hide the usage from his girl since there was no shrinkage. I on the other hand have peanuts for balls.

So some people shrink and others do not.
 

TNH

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I really do not think there is any correlation between the two and have never heard otherwise. And more details would be needed like if run hcg or nolv/clomid throughout ur past cycles, or if you have only done a couple cycles. And not getting good results after your first I guarantee is one of three problems: the gear, your training, or your diet....
Never ran HCG before, and only ran clomid for PCT.

As far as response goes, maybe I am just comparing myself to the wrong people. I am dedicated with my training and diet, but I have friends that do a cycle and just seem to take off with gains even while eating bad and training inconsistently. Maybe they just have good genetic response to the drugs. I have read a Russian pharmacology study stating that some athletes needed 4x the dose of AAS to get the same effect as the best responders. I may be one of the poorer ones.
 

Jugghead

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I have read a Russian pharmacology study stating that some athletes needed 4x the dose of AAS to get the same effect as the best responders. I may be one of the poorer ones.

I believe I'm a poor responder also. I think It gets worse the older I get too.
Example: For my last cycle I started with 500mg Test E & 250mg Deca per week, along with 30mg dbol/day. By the 4th week I was up 21lbs(213lbs)! After 2 more weeks at same dosage (without the dbol), my BW was stuck at same weight, despite stuffing my face, training well/consistent. So I increased the frequency to every 5 days, at same dosage...nothing, not 1 more pound!. So I used same dosage every 4 days, still no response (now week #8) At this point I increased the dosages to 750mg & 300mg respectively. After 3 shots at these dosages, I gained 2 lbs (215lbs). By this point I had added 75mg/day tbol (it was Bangor Labs tbol, so It could have been bunk) & I upped the Deca to 400mg. So I was taking 750mg Test E & 400mg Deca along with the tbol every 4 days!!! Final outcome after 12 wks?!...I got up to 217lbs (gain of 25lbs) I'd say about 5lbs of it are fat!
Now some may say..."wow dude, that's really good" but look at my dosages!!! And mind you, I was also using 5iu GH 5x/wk!!!
Already I'm down to 210lbs (last shot was on the 1st)
So bottom line, I doubt most people on this board have to go this high on their dosages to get these kind of gains!!!
 

juiced13

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MIne shrink depending only on the compounds i am on. Certain esters dont bother the sack shrinkage
 

Jim550

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I have read a Russian pharmacology study stating that some athletes needed 4x the dose of AAS to get the same effect as the best responders. I may be one of the poorer ones.

I believe I'm a poor responder also. I think It gets worse the older I get too.
Example: For my last cycle I started with 500mg Test E & 250mg Deca per week, along with 30mg dbol/day. By the 4th week I was up 21lbs(213lbs)! After 2 more weeks at same dosage (without the dbol), my BW was stuck at same weight, despite stuffing my face, training well/consistent. So I increased the frequency to every 5 days, at same dosage...nothing, not 1 more pound!. So I used same dosage every 4 days, still no response (now week #8) At this point I increased the dosages to 750mg & 300mg respectively. After 3 shots at these dosages, I gained 2 lbs (215lbs). By this point I had added 75mg/day tbol (it was Bangor Labs tbol, so It could have been bunk) & I upped the Deca to 400mg. So I was taking 750mg Test E & 400mg Deca along with the tbol every 4 days!!! Final outcome after 12 wks?!...I got up to 217lbs (gain of 25lbs) I'd say about 5lbs of it are fat!
Now some may say..."wow dude, that's really good" but look at my dosages!!! And mind you, I was also using 5iu GH 5x/wk!!!
Already I'm down to 210lbs (last shot was on the 1st)
So bottom line, I doubt most people on this board have to go this high on their dosages to get these kind of gains!!!

So 25 lbs out of a 12 wk cycle and your complaining, I dont know ur past cycles but I doubt the drugs are the problem. this might need to be moved to the beginners forum. You gained more in 4 wks than what most do in a year and ya most of it is water weight but the water can be going down at the same time your putting on muscle to replace its weight. And not calling you individually out but I have heard this sort of thing time and time again and everybody post all the drugs they are taking and nothing about their nutrition. It doesn't matter how much of any drug you take if you dont have the food to back it up....
 

Jugghead

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So 25 lbs out of a 12 wk cycle and your complaining, I dont know ur past cycles but I doubt the drugs are the problem. this might need to be moved to the beginners forum. You gained more in 4 wks than what most do in a year and ya most of it is water weight but the water can be going down at the same time your putting on muscle to replace its weight. And not calling you individually out but I have heard this sort of thing time and time again and everybody post all the drugs they are taking and nothing about their nutrition. It doesn't matter how much of any drug you take if you dont have the food to back it up....
My diet was pretty lose, but I ate about 350gms protein/day, typically ate when I was hungry (about 5-7x/day), I would guess total calories @3,500-4,000/day. I'm almost 41 now, I've done maybe a dozen "true" cycles over the years. My point was that my dosages were extremely high for me and yes I did gain, but like I said I've lost already 7lbs in 10 days! So obviously I still had some water weight despite looking pretty dry (no bloat, vascular arms/chest, and I can see abs) And right before I started my cycle I had lost about 6 lbs in 2 weeks from high-stress at work & home, so in actuality I wound up gaining a "net" of 19lbs over the course of the cycle. By the time my PCT is done I'll be down to about 203-205lbs, a whopping gain of 5-7lbs!!!
My point, I need to use much higher dosages than the average joe to get decent gains...If I had used "sensible" dosages I doubt I would've gained more than 5-7lbs total!
 

Bigfella

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As others have suggested, testicular atrophy is an individual thing, everyone will suffer it to some degree at some point which is largely based on dose and duration of cycle, but for some it is so little you would barely know, while others have peanuts within weeks!
 

Jim550

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this is geting off topic of the thread but I think needing more calories could defnitely be part of the issue, dont know your stats so its kinda hard to say...
 

Swifto

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Testicular size is not an indication of the HPTA being shut down. Some experience it, others do not (atrophy) but their still hypogondal.
 

biggTdogg

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Testicular size is not an indication of the HPTA being shut down. Some experience it, others do not (atrophy) but their still hypogondal.
How about a correlation between atrophy and fertility problems down the road? That is to say: would someone who's more prone to "shrinkage", also be more likely to become infertile?
 

Swifto

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How about a correlation between atrophy and fertility problems down the road? That is to say: would someone who's more prone to "shrinkage", also be more likely to become infertile?
Thats a good question. And the answer is: Yes (IMHO)

In the studies I have seen (I will post them below), testicular does indicate function in regards to sperm production/function.

The reason I stated its NOT an indication of function is because if a subject was on 500mg/wk exogenous testosterone plus Deca at 400mg/wk, and does not have testicular atrophy, he's still hypogondal. He sure as fuck is not producing normal or baseline values of endogenous testosterone.




Asian Journal of Andrology (2008) 10, 319–324; doi:10.1111/j.1745-7262.2008.00340.x

Relationship between testicular volume and testicular function: comparison of the Prader orchidometric and ultrasonographic measurements in patients with infertility

Hideo Sakamoto, Yoshio Ogawa and Hideki Yoshida

Department of Urology, Showa University School of Medicine, Tokyo 142-8666, Japan

Correspondence: Dr Hideo Sakamoto, Department of Urology, Showa University School of Medicine, 1-5-8 Hatanodai, Shinagawaku, Tokyo 142-8666, Japan. Fax: +81-3-3784-1400. E-mail: [email protected]

Received 19 March 2007; Accepted 11 September 2007.

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Abstract
Aim: To evaluate the relationship between testicular function and testicular volume measured by using Prader orchidometry and ultrasonography (US) to determine the critical testicular volume indicating normal testicular function by each method.
Methods: Total testicular volume (right plus left testicular volume) was measured in 794 testes in 397 men with infertility (mean age, 35.6 years) using a Prader orchidometer and also by ultrasonography. Ultrasonographic testicular volumes were calculated as length × width × height × 0.71. To evaluate volume-function relationships, patients were divided into 10 groups representing 5-mL increments of total testicular volume by each method from below 10 mL to 50 mL or more.
Results: Mean total testicular volume based on Prader orchidometry and US were 36.8 mL and 26.3 mL, respectively. Semen volume, sperm density, total sperm count, total motile sperm count, and serum FSH, LH, and testosterone all correlated significantly with total testicular volume measured by either method. Mean sperm density was in the oligozoospermic range in patients with total testicular volume below 35 mL by orchidometry or below 20 mL by ultrasonography. Mean total sperm count was subnormal in patients with total testicular volume below 30 mL by orchidometry or under 20 mL by ultrasonography.
Conclusion: Testicular volume measured by either ultrasonography or Prader orchidometry correlated significantly with testicular function. However, critical total testicular volume indicating normal or nearly normal testicular function was 30 mL to 35 mL using Prader orchidometer and 20 mL using ultrasonography. Prader orchidometry morphometrically and functionally overestimated the testicular volume in comparison to US.


Int J Fertil Womens Med. 1998 Jan-Feb;43(1):40-7.

Relationship of testicular volume to semen profiles and serum hormone concentrations in infertile Japanese males.

Arai T, Kitahara S, Horiuchi S, Sumi S, Yoshida K.

Department of Urology, Dokkyo University School of Medicine, Tochigi, Japan.
Abstract
OBJECTIVE: We studied the relationship between testicular volume and semen quality and also between testicular volume and seminiferous tubular or Leydig cell function in infertile Japanese males.

METHODS: The testicular volumes of 486 infertile Japanese males were measured by an orchidometer. Semen samples were analyzed according to the guidelines of the World Health Organization. Serum concentrations of follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), luteinizing hormone (LH), and testosterone were measured by radioimmunoassay. The subjects were divided into 10 groups according to testicular volume, and the variables from each group were analyzed and compared.

RESULTS: Testicular volume had the strongest positive correlation with sperm density, followed in decreasing order by total sperm count per ejaculate, total motile sperm count per ejaculate, and percentage of motile sperm. Testicular volume had the strongest negative correlation with serum FSH concentrations, followed by serum LH concentrations. In contrast, no significant correlations were found between testicular volume and semen volume or serum testosterone concentrations. Multiple regression analysis of dependence of testicular volume on semen profiles and serum hormone concentrations revealed that the only significant factor was serum FSH concentration. Sperm density was under the limit of normal in patients with a testicular volume of less than 30 mL. In these patients, serum FSH concentrations were abnormally increased. Patients with a testicular volume of less than 10 mL were azoospermic, while volumes of less than 20 mL were associated with severe oligozoospermia.

CONCLUSIONS: Testicular volume has a direct correlation with semen profiles, and the critical testicular volume indicating normal testicular function is approximately 30 mL. The measurement of testicular volume can be helpful for rapidly assessing fertility at the initial physical examination.

PMID: 9532468 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
 

Swifto

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J Urol. 1987 Mar;137(3):416-9.

Significance of testicular size measurement in andrology: II. Correlation of testicular size with testicular function.

Takihara H, Cosentino MJ, Sakatoku J, Cockett AT.

Abstract
The testicular sizes of 305 men were measured by a recently developed orchidometer and related to 9 other known parameters of testicular function. Mean testicular size had the strongest correlation with serum follicle-stimulating hormone levels, total sperm count and sperm concentration, while a significant correlation also was noted with sperm motility, percentage of live sperm, sperm morphology (normal and immature forms), and serum luteinizing hormone and testosterone levels. Sperm quantity had stronger correlations with testicular size than did sperm quality, although both were impaired in testes smaller than 14 ml. It is concluded that the size of the testis bears a direct correlation with testicular function and, thus, it can be helpful to assess rapidly andrological status during the initial physical examination.

PMID: 3102757 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
 

Elvia1023

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My diet was pretty lose, but I ate about 350gms protein/day, typically ate when I was hungry (about 5-7x/day), I would guess total calories @3,500-4,000/day. I'm almost 41 now, I've done maybe a dozen "true" cycles over the years. My point was that my dosages were extremely high for me and yes I did gain, but like I said I've lost already 7lbs in 10 days! So obviously I still had some water weight despite looking pretty dry (no bloat, vascular arms/chest, and I can see abs) And right before I started my cycle I had lost about 6 lbs in 2 weeks from high-stress at work & home, so in actuality I wound up gaining a "net" of 19lbs over the course of the cycle. By the time my PCT is done I'll be down to about 203-205lbs, a whopping gain of 5-7lbs!!!
My point, I need to use much higher dosages than the average joe to get decent gains...If I had used "sensible" dosages I doubt I would've gained more than 5-7lbs total!
You really need to learn more. What Jim wrote is spot on. Sure you may not be a great responder. But your gains are typical for anyone cycling without proper knowledge of nutrition etc. Once you stop the dbol the water will begin to fall off (even if your on test). You put on a huge amount from the dbol and yes most of it was water. So the fact you stayed a smilar weight is good. Just throwing lots of tbol isn't gonna make you gain another 20 pounds or so when you have gained so much not too long ago.

Then you experienced what most do when coming off. Your diet wouldn't have helped so all in all your pretty average. And I didn't even mention your age... hey your probably above average. Not sure about your gear history etc etc so lots of other factors. Most people would love a net gain of 5-7 pounds from a 12 week cycle... although who knows if that will stay for long if you don't change things.

The main problem you had was unrealistic goals. Your not gonna gain 25 pounds and keep them all if your diet isn't great. 3500 cals per day on a loose diet (your words) is not high. If that was clean food with the right macros it would have made a huge difference.
 

TNH

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Testicular size is not an indication of the HPTA being shut down. Some experience it, others do not (atrophy) but their still hypogondal.
Thank you!
 

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