Using an antiestrogen?

[617ricky]

I think if you weren't on cycle, the Aromasin would wipe out nearly all estrogen, which would be a bad thing. Maybe if you could find the perfect dose tho, that would be good.

 

[SacToSD]

ok suppose you are not cycling test or even taking trt doses but you have symptoms of incresed estrogen that comes with age. how much aromasin should you take and how often per week? won't using an ai by itself with no steroids raise your test level? won't you benefit with higher libido, lower bodyfat accumulation, and overall feeling of well being just using aromasin by itself?

I've read that estrogen increases as you age, so hypothetically if you took a low dose you're bring down your e level so that it'd be comparable to a younger guy. If what the guy from researchstop said about lowering e levels by 60% or so, then you'd have to figure out your e levels and then dose accordingly. You could do this by trial and error or by getting a blood test (they usually test for estradiol, leutinizing hormone, fairly inexpensively (around 200 bucks or so)). Maybe you could look into antiaging, it sounds like you'd have a valid case for TRT/HRT if you played your cards right. Try contacting one of the various TRT places you find on google (most are in florida for some reason... I think this is because they can do out of state treatment without an initial face to face doctor visit). I've also heard of people using clomid by itself for the reasons you're asking about above, as well... but don't quote me on that. Point being, people have asked similar questions to yours and tried out different non-steroidal alternatives.

 

[Researchstop]

I've heard that Letrozole also fights Progetin related sides that can stem from Deca, in addition to regular estrogen sides.. Is this true, and wouldn't it make it better than Aromasin for a Test/Deca cyce?

Also, since I've heard that Aromasin/Letrozole can be overkill if you're not gyno prone, and you're not on a big dose of steroids (which I won't be), can I take maybe a 1/2 or even a 1/4 of the normal dose, and take it EOD, and just go from there?

Letrozole has an affect on Progesterone levels. However, it way too mild of an effect. Again, I have no qualms about Letrozole, and no you would not use it together with Aromasin. The only problem with Letro is that it can, and usually does lower E levels TOO low. Resulting in joint pain and no erection. (your erection is controlled by estrogen).

ok suppose you are not cycling test or even taking trt doses but you have symptoms of incresed estrogen that comes with age. how much aromasin should you take and how often per week? won't using an ai by itself with no steroids raise your test level? won't you benefit with higher libido, lower bodyfat accumulation, and overall feeling of well being just using aromasin by itself?

Right. Using an AI is a great way to raise your Test levels. In one study using an AI actually resulted in men having higher Test levels than if they had taken 200mg/wk of Test. I would use 12.5mg/day for that purpose.

 

[massnup]

Letrozole has an affect on Progesterone levels. However, it way too mild of an effect. Again, I have no qualms about Letrozole, and no you would not use it together with Aromasin. The only problem with Letro is that it can, and usually does lower E levels TOO low. Resulting in joint pain and no erection. (your erection is controlled by estrogen).



Right. Using an AI is a great way to raise your Test levels. In one study using an AI actually resulted in men having higher Test levels than if they had taken 200mg/wk of Test. I would use 12.5mg/day for that purpose.

I suppose that letro would do the same? Also, what dose would letro need to be to get that effect?

 

[jdchaffin]

I suppose that letro would do the same? Also, what dose would letro need to be to get that effect?

I've always heard that letro has a rebound effect after you stop using it. I was trying to figure out if letro is a "suicide" ai like aromasin or of it competes like arimidex.

 

[617ricky]

It's not a suicide blocker, since it functions by "competitive reversible binding" to the aromatase enzyme.

 

[jimmyjones]

From everything Ive researched on Exemestane, it is the most beneficial AI currently out there. It not only very efficiently lowers estrogen, but it does so in the best form possible, by effectively killing the aromatase enzymes, and not competing with them. It also highers IGF-1 levels, has almost no effect on cholesterols, and when u come off, there is no estrogen rebound.

 

[massnup]

From everything Ive researched on Exemestane, it is the most beneficial AI currently out there. It not only very efficiently lowers estrogen, but it does so in the best form possible, by effectively killing the aromatase enzymes, and not competing with them. It also highers IGF-1 levels, has almost no effect on cholesterols, and when u come off, there is no estrogen rebound.

It also works as good on gyno as letro correct?

 

[jimmyjones]

It also works as good on gyno as letro correct?

Idk about gyno, but when I was on Aromasin for 1 entire week, the fat in my chest sucked up and never came back. Now it wasnt gyno, because I certainly didnt have bitch tits, but it was simply accumulated chest fat, and it never came back, but then again, I also havent came off using Aromasin just yet, because im running it all the way thru and even as my sole PCT compound. From what Ive read on Letro, it is the most powerful substance in regards to reversing gyno. If you have gyno, I say you give Aromasin a try for a week at 12.5mg/day, and see if that reverses it. If it doesnt, try 25mg/day and if that STILL doesnt work, then the last resort is Letro. Letro is the "Accutane" for estrogen related issues, as it rids the body almost completely of estrogen, but just like Accutane, it should be the last resort because of its power.

 

[617ricky]

OK I have another question. For maintenance, some guys will take 0.25mg of Arimidex every 3 days, since it has a 72 hr half-life. After researching Aromasin, the half-life is only 23 hrs, so you'd have to take it daily.

What would be the equivalent of 0.25mg Arimidex E3D to Aromasin ED? I'm guessing it would be a really small dose, but if you were able to accurately measure it, how small would it really be?

 

[Researchstop]

I suppose that letro would do the same? Also, what dose would letro need to be to get that effect?

1.25 is what is in the medical literature.

OK I have another question. For maintenance, some guys will take 0.25mg of Arimidex every 3 days, since it has a 72 hr half-life. After researching Aromasin, the half-life is only 23 hrs, so you'd have to take it daily.

What would be the equivalent of 0.25mg Arimidex E3D to Aromasin ED? I'm guessing it would be a really small dose, but if you were able to accurately measure it, how small would it really be?

Since they are two different drugs that work two different ways, it's hard to predict the outcome of that. I would try 12.5mg/day. Like I said, that's the dose they used in researching increasing test levels.

 

[jdchaffin]

Since they are two different drugs that work two different ways, it's hard to predict the outcome of that. I would try 12.5mg/day. Like I said, that's the dose they used in researching increasing test levels.

Any known side effects of running exemestane for long periods by itself?

 

[massnup]

i read somewhere that letro also increases GH levels?

 

[massnup]

So with AI's blocking/suppressing estrogen therefore making test levels and GH levels go up drastically then what if you added in a myostatin inhibitor and a cortisol blocker? hmmmm

 

[Macro]

I suppose that letro would do the same? Also, what dose would letro need to be to get that effect?

yes, though from a practical standpoint letrozole does present other issues that are generally not delineated in the studies (since most of them do not involve active weight trained males)

Eur J Endocrinol. 2008 May;158(5):741-7. Links
Letrozole once a week normalizes serum testosterone in obesity-related male hypogonadism.Loves S, Ruinemans-Koerts J, de Boer H.
Department of Internal Medicine, Ziekenhuis Rijnstate, Wagnerlaan 55, 6800 TA Arnhem, The Netherlands.

OBJECTIVE: Isolated hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (IHH) is frequently observed in severely obese men, probably as a result of increased estradiol (E(2)) production and E(2)-mediated negative feedback on pituitary LH secretion. Aromatase inhibitors can reverse this process. This study evaluates whether letrozole once a week can normalize serum testosterone in severely obese men and maintain its long term effect. DESIGN: Open, uncontrolled 6-month pilot study in 12 severely obese men (body mass index>35.0 kg/m(2)) with obesity-related IHH and free testosterone levels <225 pmol/l, treated with 2.5 mg letrozole once a week for 6 months. RESULTS: Six weeks of treatment reduced total E(2) from 123+/-11 to 58+/-7 pmol/l (P<0.001, mean+/-s.e.m.), and increased serum LH from 4.4+/-0.6 to 11.1+/-1.5 U/l (P<0.001). Total testosterone rose from 5.9+/-0.5 to 19.6+/-1.4 nmol/l (P<0.001), and free testosterone from 163+/-13 to 604+/-50 pmol/l (P<0.001). Total testosterone rose to within the normal range in all subjects, whereas free testosterone rose to supraphysiological levels in 7 out of 12 men. The testosterone and E(2) levels were stable throughout the week and during the 6-month treatment period. CONCLUSION: Letrozole 2.5 mg once a week produced a sustained normalization of serum total testosterone in obese men with IHH. However, free testosterone frequently rose to supraphysiological levels. Therefore, a starting dose <2.5 mg once a week is recommended.


Eur J Endocrinol. 2009 Mar;160(3):397-402. Epub 2008 Dec 2. Links
Short-term aromatase inhibition: effects on glucose metabolism and serum leptin levels in young and elderly men.Lapauw B, T'sjoen G, Mahmoud A, Kaufman JM, Ruige JB.
Department of Endocrinology, Ghent University Hospital, Ghent, Belgium. [email protected]

OBJECTIVE: To assess and compare the effects of short-term aromatase inhibition on glucose metabolism, lipid profile, and adipocytokine levels in young and elderly men. DESIGN AND METHODS: Ten elderly and nine young healthy men were randomized to receive letrozole 2.5 mg daily or placebo for 28 days in a crossover design. RESULTS: Both in young and elderly men, active treatment significantly increased serum testosterone (+128 and +99%, respectively) and decreased estradiol levels (-41 and -62%, respectively). Fasting glucose and insulin levels decreased in young men after active intervention (-7 and -37%, respectively) compared with placebo. Leptin levels fell markedly in both age groups (-24 and -25%, respectively), while adiponectin levels were not affected by the intervention. Lipid profile was slightly impaired in both groups, with increasing low density lipoprotein-cholesterol levels (+14%) in the younger age group and 10% lower levels of APOA1 in the elderly. A decline in IGF1 levels (-15%) was observed in the younger age group. No changes in weight or body mass index were observed in either young or old men. CONCLUSIONS: Short-term aromatase inhibition appears to affect glucose metabolism in young men, and lipid metabolism, including leptin secretion, in young and elderly men. Furthermore, the short period of exposure suggests that these changes might be mediated by direct effects of sex steroids rather than by changes in body composition.

 

[Hossienda77]

Unbelievably informative thread. A huge, HUGE thanks to Researchstop.

 

[taslajrisi]

aromasin

taking just an AI (aromasin my favorite) low dose will rebalance hormones in older guys and get the test/estrogen ratio back to where it was in the younger days.......I know there is another article on docs just giving older men aromasin low dose to get ratio better. I take 10mg ED or EOD only and like it. Letro is too strong for me, it killed by libido and joints hurt etc. Aromasin is great w lots of benefits and no rebound when stopped as with letro.....

In this two part series, I will be giving an overview of my approach to hormone replacement therapy. I call my approach "hormone balancing", which is based on the principles of keeping your sex hormones (testosterone, estrogen, and progesterone) at the same levels that they were at in your mid-twenties. In addition to sex hormones, I also occasionally focus on balancing growth hormone and IGF-1 levels as well.

For men, hormone balancing usually means adjusting the testosterone/estrogen ratio. As men get older, their testosterone levels tend to slowly decline while their estrogen levels actually increase. These slow "demasculination" of men with age has numerous negative consequences, including but not limited to fatigue, fat gain, muscle loss, insulin/diabetes, gynecomastia, and prostate enlargement.

If a male patient requests to go on a hormone-balancing program, he first has to go through a series of examinations as well as give me his medical history so I can properly determine why his sex hormones are out of balance. A comprehensive hormone panel is taken to measure blood levels of free and total testosterone, estradiol, total estrogens, luteinizing hormone, IGF-1, prolactin, DHEA, and several other hormones. In addition, numerous screening for different forms of cancer are looked at as well, including a rectal exam and prostate specific antigen – a useful marker for prostate cancer. When the results of the tests come in, I then determine whether or not the patient is a good candidate for hormone replacement therapy. While I won’t go into all the details, the main criteria for going on a hormone-balancing program include:

1). Patient has a measured sex hormone deficiency or imbalance based on their blood tests. Salivary tests are sometimes useful as well for some complex cases.

2). Patient does not show any signs of cancers that may be affected by a hormone-balancing program.

3). Patient exhibits clinical features of sex hormone imbalance: low sex drive and sexual function, low self esteem, depression, irritability, fatigue, inability to gain muscle, weak bones loss of heights, shrinkage of the penis and testicles, and other symptoms.

If these criteria are met, I then work with the patient on a case-by-case basis. Personalized programs are set up to determine the best treatment options for hormone balancing. Even though many patients request immediately to be put on testosterone replacement therapy immediately, I usually suggest other options first. Unlike women whose sex hormone production almost completely shuts down after menopause, male "andropause" is a slow process where free testosterone levels ever so slowly start to decline. Putting a man on testosterone replacement therapy could potentially shut down his sex hormone production completely, especially if supraphysiological (higher than normal) testosterone levels are maintained. It might take as long as six to nine months for his sex hormone production to return to normal after going off of testosterone replacement therapy. Men who insist on testosterone replacement therapy may find that they need to stay on it the rest of their life. Testosterone replacement therapy can also lead to lowered sperm counts, sleep apnea, increased red cell mass, and water retention. For these reasons, I have a whole arsenal of options for balancing your hormone levels.

Treatment Options for Hormone Balancing

Aromatase Inhibitors

This class of drugs is one of the safest and most effective tools for hormone balancing. As mentioned above, one of the most common problems of aging for men is the decrease in testosterone levels and increase in estrogen levels. Part of the cause of this phenomena is the increase of blood levels of aromatase, the enzyme responsible for converting testosterone to estrogen. Arimidex is the first and most commonly prescribed drug that inhibits the aromatase enzyme. This drug is highly effective, and in some cases can restore a youthful testosterone/estrogen ratio in a matter of days. The key to using this drug is finding the right dosing pattern, as you don’t want to reduce estrogen levels too much as having too little estrogen for long periods of time can lead to fatigue and loss of libido, decreased coronary vessel dilation, lowered HDL cholesterol levels, as well as osteoporosis.

One advantage of using Arimidex to boost testosterone rather than simply prescribe testosterone itself is that Arimidex does not shut down your body’s natural production of testosterone. In fact, Arimidex may actually increase your body’s release of luteinizing hormone from the pituitary gland. Luteinizing hormone is the main hormone responsible for signaling your testes to produce more testosterone. Unlike testosterone replacement therapy, a man can stop taking Arimidex and have his hormones back to previous levels within days.

The main disadvantage to Arimidex is that it is highly expensive at around six dollars per tablet. Since it was approved by the FDA, strictly as a drug for women with breast cancer, men might have some trouble getting their insurance company to cover the cost. Fortunately, Arimidex is potent enough that it can be effective in doses as little as ¼ tablet per day.

Two new aromatase inhibiting drugs, Femara and Aromasin, have come out recently that may prove to be more cost effective than Arimidex. The promotional literature on Aromasin says that it is more effective than other aromatase inhibitors because it permanently binds to the aromatase enzyme, whereas Arimidex only temporarily binds to the aromatase enzyme. In simple English, this means that Aromasin should be more potent and longer acting than Arimidex. Since Aromasin’s cost is almost exactly the same as Arimidex but is potentially more potent, it could turn out to be the more cost effective option. However, the Aromasin promotional literature is quick to point out that "the clinical relevance of these differences in mechanism of action has not been established."

 

[taslajrisi]

estrogen.....

Some more info.....

I believe future research will show that testosterone may actually reduce the risk of heart disease in some groups of men. One mechanism where testosterone may reduce heart disease risk is by lowering abdominal fat. Many older men are skinny in most of their body except for a large deposit of fat around their abs. This is not surprising, as a couple of recent studies have linked lower testosterone levels ( and higher estrogen levels) to increased abdominal fat (7,8). It is well established that estrogen increases fat storage, as it is commonly given to livestock to fatten them up. However, testosterone role in fat loss is not so well understood. It was previously believed that testosterone reduced body fat indirectly by increasing muscle mass, thus boosting your body’s caloric needs. However, new research linking testosterone to fat loss has lead me to believe that testosterone has direct effects on mobilizing abdominal fat. Research has already shown that androgens can mobilize lower body fat in women (9), so it seems highly likely that testosterone can also mobilize body fat in men as well. If testosterone can help keep a man lean, muscular, and fit into his old age, it almost certainly will reduce his risk of heart disease.

Conclusion

Hormone balancing can have powerful anti-aging effects if the proper treatments are used. I have seen men about to retire from their jobs due to fatigue find a new lease on life and sexuality once they properly restore youthful sex hormone levels. The key, of course, is finding the right treatment option. I would advise any man suffering from fatigue, loss of libido, and loss of muscle mass to have their hormone levels checked and consider many of the different treatment options outlined in this article.

 

[jdchaffin]

Using an AI is a great way to raise your Test levels. In one study using an AI actually resulted in men having higher Test levels than if they had taken 200mg/wk of Test. I would use 12.5mg/day for that purpose.

So with aromasin reducing estrogen, raising test, and raising GH would it be reasonable to concider using a daily 12.5mg dose of aromasin as a bridge between cycles?

 

[Metal]

See, I usually use suppliments for this. Vitamin Shoppe sells this stuff called AromX I use for anti E, works fine, and MHP has a product called Expel, which is a great diurhetic.