What an oldschool bb'er told me today

[GoneForever]

This dude used to compete amature back in the day. He's in his 60's looks great and told me something interesting. Not sure if true or not, but he said the way to tell if your gonna respond to a low/no carb diet goes by hunger. He said if your not hungry when on a low carb diet then its not for you. The first week you cant count b/c you will be hungry regaurdless, but after that, you should always be hungry. I found this interesting b/c whenever I did a low carb diet even 150mg or less im never hungry and never get results. Lately i've been having around 300g carbs from good sources like fruits and veggies and occasionally some other low GI carbs and melt fat much faster. Im also always a tad bit hungry all the time.

 

[dragonfire101]

Don't about that. Only was I can loose is on low carbs. The first few weeks I'm getting cravings, but after I get in the routine by week 3 I don't have the cravings and use to the foods and still loosing as long as I stay on it.

You have to drink a lot o water on low cabs helps with the hunger.

 

[tribestantroy]

Fat is satiating

This is one reason you will not suffer from such extreme hunger pangs as opposed to eating high carbs and taking the insulin roller coaster ride that it inevitably provides.

Dietary fat intake has little to do with bodily fat deposition. Most fat accumulation (arteries, subcutaneous) is a result of the liver converting excess carbs into triglyceride and storing it for when carbs are unavailable.

Dietary fat is used for many vital bodily functions, i.e. hormone production, cell maintenance, which have priority over the laying down of fat on the body.

The term 'Low carb', as it is used in attempting to facilitate a fat burning response from the body, is useless until carbs are lowered to the point where you are no longer using carbs as the primary energy source.

 

[machola]

not sure about this

TMost fat accumulation (arteries, subcutaneous) is a result of the liver converting excess carbs into triglyceride and storing it for when carbs are unavailable.

i've never heard of this. i don't think its true. i know excess carbs are converted to glycogen which is stored in the liver and muscles for later use

 

[tribestantroy]

It's a tightrope walk

The point at which you are topped off with liver and muscle glycogen is difficult to determine.

Once they are full you will begin laying down bodyfat. Now the problem with circulating triglyceride is the oxidation that they are susceptible to.

If you constantly take in high levels of carbs and you are going over your liver and muscles demand for glycogen you will have all these fats floating around in your bloodstream waiting to be oxidized. This is where you run into hardening of the arteries and all the problems associated with "high cholesterol".

There are options to manage this: extra anti oxidant use, soluble and insoluble fiber are a couple.

 

[buselmo]

I don't know about that... but from my very limited experience , the location of your major fat deposits on your body will tell you if low/no carb is a good approach or not.

 

[GoneForever]

I don't know about that... but from my very limited experience , the location of your major fat deposits on your body will tell you if low/no carb is a good approach or not.

How would this play a factor? I would think fat location would just be genetic or even estrogen related(if too high) please elaborate.

 

[tribestantroy]

I don't know about that... but from my very limited experience , the location of your major fat deposits on your body will tell you if low/no carb is a good approach or not.[/Q

This statement makes no sense. Where body fat is stored is irrelevant. The object is to minimize fat storage in general.

This is the effect that dropping carbs, to an acceptable level, has on the body. Why do you think we store fat? So we will have a high calorie energy supply to burn when carbs are not available?

Think of the early man. They relied on meat as their primary food source. They supplemented this meat diet with various grains and fruit when in season. We are designed for this way of eating.

On another note, it would be wise to consider how you combine foods during a meal. Starches and proteins do not digest completely when mixed together. Roughly half the starch will ferment in the stomach and half the protein will putrefy rendering it useless for muscle growth and eventually will cause GI problems.

 

[buselmo]

This statement makes no sense. Where body fat is stored is irrelevant. The object is to minimize fat storage in general.
.

the objective I agree with... where body fat is stored in most cases is relevant. I think you misunderstood what i said. I am not saying that if you eat low carb you will burn more fat from "this area" and if you eat higher carb you will burn more fat in "that area"... what i am saying is that the location of the major fat storage in your body is an indication of what kind of 'hormonal imbalance', for lack of a better term, you are suffering from due to your genetic predisposition. Ask yourself this, where do most people with estrogen imbalance store their fat? where do people with insulin insensitivity store fat? where do people with high cortisol store fat?
is there a way where you can manipulate your diet as to address these problems more efficiently? simple answer according to my experience is yes!

Think of the early man. They relied on meat as their primary food source. They supplemented this meat diet with various grains and fruit when in season. We are designed for this way of eating.
.

what about the early men who were in Asia?
if we are designed to eat this way, does that mean we are designed to be at under 10% fat and muscular?
Isn't being at 15+% and have very little muscle mass better with regards to survival?
why are a lot of bodybuilders out there getting amazing results with high carbs and moderate to low protein, and just look awful if they drop carbs and raise fat and protein?

On another note, it would be wise to consider how you combine foods during a meal. Starches and proteins do not digest completely when mixed together. Roughly half the starch will ferment in the stomach and half the protein will putrefy rendering it useless for muscle growth and eventually will cause GI problems.

do you mean eating 600 cals worth of starches and another 600 cals worth of protein? or 200 cals worth of starch and 200 cals worth of protein? it's a world of difference.
and just my opinion, but i don't think this is true, and it only applies to gross over eating.

 

[dragonfire101]

This dude used to compete amature back in the day. He's in his 60's looks great and told me something interesting. Not sure if true or not, but he said the way to tell if your gonna respond to a low/no carb diet goes by hunger. He said if your not hungry when on a low carb diet then its not for you. The first week you cant count b/c you will be hungry regaurdless, but after that, you should always be hungry. I found this interesting b/c whenever I did a low carb diet even 150mg or less im never hungry and never get results. Lately i've been having around 300g carbs from good sources like fruits and veggies and occasionally some other low GI carbs and melt fat much faster. Im also always a tad bit hungry all the time.

You can have fruit on low carbs.You need some carbs to keep thyroid up. Thyroid output will eventually lower. Point is add in some carbs to the point you can still use them up and stay in ketosis or loose fat. Make sure you eat them with protein though. Not alone. You should be able to eat all the green veggies you want on low carbs. NO peas. For me this means staying around 100 grams carbs day Not counting green veggies to continue to loose fat on off days and on training about 200 grams carbs. Everything is really more TKD type diet when it come st gaining muscle and loosing fat.Do you really need carbs the morning after the night you workdout where you juts carbed up post workout the night before.

As for early man, we where all hunters and gathers depending how early you want to go. So you can pretty much figure out the diet.

 

[tribestantroy]

There is no such thing as 'spot reducing' IF you are constantly pumping out relatively large quantities of insulin due to your carb intake when your metabolism is geared toward burning carbs and storing fat.

Estrogen imbalances, high cortisol and insulin insensitivity are all catalysts to laying down body fat. Men and women both have site specific receptors that dictate exactly where this fat will go.

These conditions speak of a much more serious issue than just vanity. I am referring to the healthy athlete and not someone who may need to seek help from an endocrinologist.

Yes, food has the ability to alter chemicals in our body to either bolster our health or become a detriment to it.

Having a decent percentage of body fat is a survival mechanism. How would you have the strength and energy to hunt down wild game and perhaps run for your life on a regular basis if you are weak?

If your muscle to fat ratio is more geared toward staying home with the women, while the 'men' go out to risk their lives to feed their tribe, you would be jeopardizing the entire clan. Multiply this scenario by a few million you will have our current society.

Who do you believe receives the first and most important cuts from a fresh kill? It is the tribe leader/hunter and the meal usually consists of the liver and the soft fatty muscles of the carcass. They eat this way instinctively.

BB's look awful when they drop carbs because they do not give the body time to assimilate to the new macro profile and they do not drop them to the absolute minimum which allows them to gain all the advantages of this style of eating.

About the food combining, all I can say is try it out and see how you feel when you stagger your protein intake and your carb intake during the day.
Immediately you will feel less bloated, less gas, and you'll be using much more of what you eat to nourish your body. It's not how much you eat, it's what you can digest.

 

[RONJON]

Very interesting...whats really hard is that sometimes I CANT eat when i get hungry because I am working..try my best to plan my meals out so that its not an issue but whataya gunna do

 

[buselmo]

There is no such thing as 'spot reducing' IF you are constantly pumping out relatively large quantities of insulin due to your carb intake when your metabolism is geared toward burning carbs and storing fat.

if your metabolism is geared towards burning carbs, as you say, by eating carbs and 'pumping out relatively large quantities of insulin'... what do you think will happen to those who eat 40% of their intake in carbs, but are in a caloric deficit?
Ok, what would happen if you eat moderate/high protein, and high fat, with no carbs, but you are in a caloric surplus?

Estrogen imbalances, high cortisol and insulin insensitivity are all catalysts to laying down body fat. Men and women both have site specific receptors that dictate exactly where this fat will go. .

and this is exactly why high carb, moderate carb, and low carb intakes are good for some and bad for others

These conditions speak of a much more serious issue than just vanity. I am referring to the healthy athlete and not someone who may need to seek help from an endocrinologist.
.

then eat your granola bar and fish oil for breakfast, eat your chicken breast and broccoli for lunch, some tuna salad with olive oil for dinner, jog, and lift sissy weights 2-3 days per week.

don't expect to have 20 inch arms at 3% bodyfat and be healthy. If you are healthy at that condition, good for you, you're one in a million... what we do, we do it in the LEAST damaging way to our bodies... if we want health and only health... we'd do things differently.

Having a decent percentage of body fat is a survival mechanism. How would you have the strength and energy to hunt down wild game and perhaps run for your life on a regular basis if you are weak?
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then why do you see a lot of african tribes that actually hunt, and need the energy are at 5% fat, starving to death, and are muscular... when other people who don't hunt and are living in poverty are basically higher in bodyfat and have no muscle?

If your muscle to fat ratio is more geared toward staying home with the women, while the 'men' go out to risk their lives to feed their tribe, you would be jeopardizing the entire clan. Multiply this scenario by a few million you will have our current society.

Who do you believe receives the first and most important cuts from a fresh kill? It is the tribe leader/hunter and the meal usually consists of the liver and the soft fatty muscles of the carcass. They eat this way instinctively.
.

i think you should review the information you are saying here. please do some research on the oldest human remains, how they traveled and scattered around the earth, and what their diets consisted of. This is way outdated information you are providing here. I think it's fair to say that we evolved somewhat and our hormonal production and almost everything in our bodies have changed. if not, and you believe that we still have the same traits as we did 100's of thousands (or, according to some research) millions of years ago, then please explain how we have different ethnicities.

BB's look awful when they drop carbs because they do not give the body time to assimilate to the new macro profile and they do not drop them to the absolute minimum which allows them to gain all the advantages of this style of eating.

About the food combining, all I can say is try it out and see how you feel when you stagger your protein intake and your carb intake during the day.
Immediately you will feel less bloated, less gas, and you'll be using much more of what you eat to nourish your body. It's not how much you eat, it's what you can digest.

what about the bodybuilders that spend 16-20 weeks on low carb, and look even worse?
As far as staggering protein and carb intake... that's not the same as food combinations. unless you weren't clear. personally, i do well on a not so typical carb cycling dieting ( i posted my diet in another thread). but that's just me, and the clients who actually have the same fat deposit locations as i do (weird, right? ), for those who deposit fat in different locations, they react differently and just look awful on low/no carb. please explain that to me? is it just coincidense? i trained more than 30 people... and it applied to ALL of them... was i just lucky?

 

[Phidias]

Tribesboy, the tone of your posts is so condescending man, that reading you is really annoying.

I completely agree with Buselmo's last post.

 

[tribestantroy]

annoying?

Boo hoo, that's my style. I don't hear anyone else complaining. You don't like it, don't read it. And the name's tribestantroy. I suppose you only gain respect from having a high post count?

Buselmo, thanks for the reply, Yes if you take in an excess amount of calories from any macro nutrient you will force the body to lay down fat.

The point I am making is that insulin has a nasty way of causing fat to deposit on certain parts of the body. Once insulin is under control you will have a much more even distribution of fat over the entire body and will no longer be susceptible to accumulating fat in these so-called problem areas.

My intention is not to offend those whom suffer from hormonal imbalance. To say that you must sacrifice health in order to attain an extra ordinary physique is really just a statement of ignorance, no offense and with much respect.

Myself, and many others that I know, are living proof that it is possible to be very healthy and still put down large amounts of fat, protein and carbs just so long as it is done during the proper time frame in a controlled fashion.

Have we lost sight that the fastest way to accelerated muscle growth, sans AAS use, is by giving the body what it wants and what it needs to do its job efficiently and in great health?

Of course I am partial to the natural side of this game, but it would benefit everyone to bring insulin under control in terms of fat loss.

I am from the school of thought that claims we really have not evolved to a significant degree as far as how we respond to what we eat. Differing ethnicity is a whole other debate.

What is 'low carb'? First you need to determine what you are trying to do. Are you attempting to minimize fat deposits? Until they drop to a certain point you will still be storing fat (and burning carbs primarily), albeit not as much as high carbing.

The body's physiology is reactive. It does what you make it do. Tell it to keep burning carbs and drop them from 300gms to 100gms and you will feel it, in a bad way.

Drop them to under 30grms for an extended time and its another ball game all together. Fat is the true energy king and the body knows this.

It is so precious to the human body that after 20 minutes or so of lifting you will burn 50% fat and 50% muscle to fuel your workout.
Why not 100% fat? Why do we sacrifice muscle instead of relying completely on fat.

Once you shift from burning sugar to burning fats a whole new world opens up to you.

 

[b-boy]

Tribesboy, the tone of your posts is so condescending man, that reading you is really annoying.

I completely agree with Buselmo's last post.

LOL you crack me up phidias

 

[terryd5150]

Not taking sides here...

... I suppose you only gain respect from having a high post count?...

But Phidias got respect here by being a pretty decent BBer and contributing a good bit to the board.



If you want the same, give it time. Prove you are here to learn/help and not just to start pissing matches and you will get the same.

 

[buselmo]

Boo hoo, that's my style. I don't hear anyone else complaining. You don't like it, don't read it. And the name's tribestantroy. I suppose you only gain respect from having a high post count?
.

Just an FYI, you gain respect if you speak to people with respect. I just thought you'd like to know that I too found the choice of words you used made your post sound very condescending. I don't blame phidias for saying what he said... but you gotta admit, it was fucking funny

Buselmo, thanks for the reply, Yes if you take in an excess amount of calories from any macro nutrient you will force the body to lay down fat.
.

or muscle, depending on countless variables.

The point I am making is that insulin has a nasty way of causing fat to deposit on certain parts of the body. Once insulin is under control you will have a much more even distribution of fat over the entire body and will no longer be susceptible to accumulating fat in these so-called problem areas.
.

not really. some very "primative" bodybuilders i know use 30+ iu of a mix of humalin R and N during contest prep because they say "it dries them out". they don't even know what insulin is. Insulin CAN be under control even if you eat high carbs. in my opinion, it's not about how much insulin you secrete or the spikes and drops of insulin in your blood stream, but it's more about how sensitive your cells are to insulin. I'm not going to get into scientific studies or whatever because when it comes to this stuff, it's by experience and not "studies" done on rats or 80 year old out of shape men.

My intention is not to offend those whom suffer from hormonal imbalance. To say that you must sacrifice health in order to attain an extra ordinary physique is really just a statement of ignorance, no offense and with much respect.

Myself, and many others that I know, are living proof that it is possible to be very healthy and still put down large amounts of fat, protein and carbs just so long as it is done during the proper time frame in a controlled fashion.
.

Call it ignorant, call it whatever... point being, what we do is DAMAGING to our health... as i said, we choose the least damaging path. if you dropped your weight to something your heart would be comfortable with, and laid off the AAS, and ate 2-3 meals per day with a reasonable amount of calories, you would be much healthier. the way i see it, your reference point is the healthiest person you can be. not the "i'm healthier now than if i ate burgers all day long, drank soda, and never exercised." ofcourse, i am the last person to talk about health because my diet is mostly "shit food" and i smoke like a maniac. so don't take my word for it

Have we lost sight that the fastest way to accelerated muscle growth, sans AAS use, is by giving the body what it wants and what it needs to do its job efficiently and in great health?
.

If we basically knew what the body wants and needs to do its job efficiently, we'd all be where we want to be. we do you think you hear the word "trial and error" amongs almost everyone who made it to their bodybuilding (serious bodybuilding) goal? why do you think most medical research on "how to lose weight" changes on almost a weekly basis? "high carb breakfast!!! no no, wait, low carb diet!!! wait wait!!! higher fats make you lose more weight than higher carbs!!! wait wait!! it's the opposite!!!"... because people are different, and somehow the medical community still hasn't established that FACT!
I assure you, in 3-6 months, you will change what you are saying because you will try something different and see that it works great!! ... that's how we all are. you get results from something you tried for a couple of weeks, then you think it's the be all, end all for everyone. (i'm making assumptions here. i'm basically addressing this to every one new in the game and not just you)

Of course I am partial to the natural side of this game, but it would benefit everyone to bring insulin under control in terms of fat loss.
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and muscle loss.
please tell me, why do a lot of really big bodybuilders (we know you're out there ) use a shit ton of insulin during contest prep? why do so many natural bodybuilders look really big in the offseason, but dieting down, they look like swimmers when they go low/no carb? and some don't lose muscle at all?

I am from the school of thought that claims we really have not evolved to a significant degree as far as how we respond to what we eat. Differing ethnicity is a whole other debate.
.

since it's a school of thought, and not scientific fact, it would be pointless to debate this issue.

What is 'low carb'? First you need to determine what you are trying to do. Are you attempting to minimize fat deposits? Until they drop to a certain point you will still be storing fat (and burning carbs primarily), albeit not as much as high carbing.
.

i have discussed my thoughts of what is low carb in a thread started by lenny a couple of days ago...
as for this "carbs as primary fuel" and "fat as primary fuel"... I'm not gonna debate whatever scientific fact anyone has. but the way i see it in real life, as long as there is a deficit, there will be WEIGHT loss. Depending on YOUR OWN SPECIFIC nutritional needs, AND the way you train, AND your super supplement use, AND your fat burner use... you will either lose muscle or fat.
If the whole "burn carbs for energy" and "burn fat for energy" were true... i'd just eat carbs to 6 or 7 pm at a surplus with a lot of protein, then do some high intensity cardio before i go to bed to burn the "carbs" in my body, wake up and do low intensity cardio on an empty stomach for 3 or 4 hours to burn around 2200 cals of pure fat (since that is the basic premis here), eat some carbs, work out, eat more carbs to build muscle (since i need to replenish glycogen stores to help build muscle and release more insulin) and repeat.
this way i might start fat, and end up heavier with a lot more muscle and a lot less body fat, right?

The body's physiology is reactive. It does what you make it do. Tell it to keep burning carbs and drop them from 300gms to 100gms and you will feel it, in a bad way.

Drop them to under 30grms for an extended time and its another ball game all together. Fat is the true energy king and the body knows this.
.

Tried it before... for 5 weeks... everyone thought i quit weightlifting when they saw me after 3 weeks of low/no carbs (less than 50 gr per day).
why is it that i eat 1500-2000 grams of carbs per week total, yet i'm still burning a shit ton of fat, staying pumped all the time, and gaining muscle YET I AM VERY INSENSITIVE TO INSULIN?
If fat is the king of energy, why don't marathon runners go on ketosis? why are carbs a prefered fuel source for almost everyone on the planet? you can argue that the planet is getting fatter, but it's not becasue of carbs, when you eat 2 to 3 meals a day, 1200-1500 cals a pop, and don't move, you are bound to get fat

It is so precious to the human body that after 20 minutes or so of lifting you will burn 50% fat and 50% muscle to fuel your workout.
Why not 100% fat? Why do we sacrifice muscle instead of relying completely on fat.

Once you shift from burning sugar to burning fats a whole new world opens up to you.

??? where did this info come from?

 

[tribestantroy]

No one started a "pissing match". That would be borderline immature.

I'm here to express my views and debate when the opportunity presents itself. I don't need your respect or any one else. If you're going to respect anything, respect the valid points I'm trying to get across in my posts. By the way, TONS of great info on here. Smoochie, smoochie.

 

[dragonfire101]

Insulin CAN be under control even if you eat high carbs. in my opinion, it's not about how much insulin you secrete or the spikes and drops of insulin in your blood stream, but it's more about how sensitive your cells are to insulin. I'm not going to get into scientific studies or whatever because when it comes to this stuff, it's by experience and not "studies" done on rats or 80 year old out of shape men.

Whats up Bro,

Can you elaborate not on scientific stuff, but some experiences with your clients. I'm good at looking that up the science. Are you just referring to timing carbs when needed etc. and sensitivities at those times or genetic sensitivity also in storing fat easier because way body uses insulin and or plus exogenous use. Most likely ALL

Your a not so typical carb cycling dieting. Can you elaborate a little.