What exactly is GOOD FORM?

BrooklynBB · Dec 10, 2006

We have examples of all types from videos, magazines, pictures and of course, those who work out on a daily basis at local gyms on what good form is. They tell us about "textbook" form (Watch Dorian Yates' video Blood and Guts) and what's beneficial to the joints and ligaments.

But for the most part - and this was sparked by the video posted with Phil Hernon training in an excerpt from a SERIOUS GROWTH video - most guys who are freaky huge use what's considered "loose" form.

My first real exposure to this was Ronnie Coleman's video - "The Unbelieveable". I couldn't believe how much momentum he was using to get the weights up, nor the range of motion on certain movements, especially on all exercises for the chest. On Bent Over rows he basically uses his entire body as a motion thruster to get the weight to the top.

Then I'm watching Bertil Fox recently on You Tube where he's doing his version of what he considers upright rows, saying "I feel it there, so I do it this way.".

So is feel the guide we should use when lifting and not form? Because his "form" was anything but textbook perfect.

And watching Phil, I tried to find the common denominator in what good form was. I noticed during the pullups his elbows were pretty stationary, as well as his forearms - everything else moved. I noticed during his bent over rows that everything moved, pretty much, albeit not too much until the last rep. And the way he failed on the squat... yikes. That's failure.

Yet I see tons of guys (and gals!) in the gym using what they believe to be "perfect form", and look the same every year and never change. The fat girls stay fat, the skinny guys stay skinny, and the guy bouncing the 315 off his chest for a couple of reps thanks to his spotter buddy doing his version of a deadlift to get the bar up really believes that he's using PERFECT FORM, because he went ALL THE WAY DOWN on the bench, forgetting that he used his chest as a trampoline to move the weight BACK up.

But I digress, different issue altogether there.

My point? I've gotten the most success out of lifting not following the best form, and people used to tell me when I first started this a few months ago that I was doing it wrong. Yet, I've put on muscle mass and been (thankfully, knock on my wooden head) injury free.

The only times I've ever hurt myself was doing "perfect" form on a t-bar row and "perfect form" on weighted dips. That is, perfect form as written by the magazine authors and purveyors of "fitness". I think if I ever attempted a bent over row the way that they're "supposed" to be done bent over facing the floor with the weight I use, my L3 would fly out of my ass.

Bottom line - so what really is perfect form? How it feels in your muscle, or what the training manuals say? And use any type of proof you want - videos, personal experience, reason - I'm open to hear it. My opinion is that perfect form is based on feel - using the heaviest weight possible to stimulate the target muscle for as many reps as possible.

JETHRO TULL · Dec 10, 2006

I've got to agree with your observation.

There are a lot of pros out there I've seen on video who just seem to throw the weight around. Others like Yates seem to really have a tight controlled style.

A wise man once told me the following: "Many bodybuilders are successful in spite of themselves." He's a member here.

BrooklynBB · Dec 10, 2006

True. But what I'm saying is that most people who lift with what's considered "textbook" form aren't growing, so it really isn't "textbook" at all, it's just training wrong.

Conan21 · Dec 10, 2006

hmm...

well I think Ronnie Coleman would be huge no matter what he did. I would not study what he does to try and learn how to train.

can form be too strict? of course. its natural for your body to bob and weave a lil bit with certain movements.

what is good form? pre-stretching a muscle with resistance without resting too much at the top to keep more tension. Paying attention to where and how you are feeling the weight instead of worshipping the numbers. And also training a muscle in it's intended plane of motion.

Acutally, alot of the videos I see of pros they use good form for the most part. Some might do some exercises more balistically but strict form for the most part.

Jay Cutler for example uses very good form.
I was watching some videos earlier today of shawn Ray and he uses pretty good form.

here is one of Flex wheeler using great form.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZD2ca5SISn0

if you have great genetics, you can get away with not worrying about it as much.

But lets say for example, You have big arms and shoulders and a weak back. Loading up the bar and winging up some bent over rows probably isn't the best way to train. You will be pulling more with your arms and shoulders.

same thing if you have weak chest development, Loading up the bar as heavy as possible and hoping for the best probably isn't the best way to try and get a little bit more chest mass.

BigBoyJ · Dec 10, 2006

I think form on any exercise should be based on how your body funtions in real life. You don't lift and move objects in your everday life by trying to isolate a specific muscle group. Weight lifting shouldn't be any different. The body was meant to function as a unit, not a series of isolated parts. And when it's trained as isolated parts, that's when injuries occur.

BrooklynBB · Dec 10, 2006

BigBoyJ said:
I think form on any exercise should be based on how your body funtions in real life. You don't lift and move objects in your everday life by trying to isolate a specific muscle group. Weight lifting shouldn't be any different. The body was meant to function as a unit, not a series of isolated parts. And when it's trained as isolated parts, that's when injuries occur.

Completely agree with you.

Conan21 said:
well I think Ronnie Coleman would be huge no matter what he did. I would not study what he does to try and learn how to train.

Of course, lol. I was just saying he was the reason why I started paying attention to what it is that he's really doing, and why he's so big - despite what he's doing or because of it? I know the common thought is in spite of it, but there may be something to his methods that work, at least for a period.

Conan21 said:
Acutally, alot of the videos I see of pros they use good form for the most part. Some might do some exercises more balistically but strict form for the most part.

Jay Cutler for example uses very good form.

Jay is actually someone who uses momentum and alot of body movement when the weights get really heavy. Take for example this clip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XC287NsRujo

If I did that in the gym I'd be told I'm using poor form. But if he does it, it's the right thing to do. See my point?

You bring up Flex and Shawn, whom I admire for thier physique developmnt. But both of those guys are much more genetically gifted than Jay, in all honesty. They didn't exactly push super heavy poundages when they were competive. Shawn even talked about how he purposely used lighter weights than everyone else because he wanted to feel the muscle more. Flex too. But they're both smaller than Cutler / Ronnie / Gustavo / Vic Martinez / Gunther.

Now look at this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHgBMjjnN28

Scroll to about 1:50 where Johnnie Jackson is doing bent over rows. He's known to be one of the strongest bodybuilders out there, and yet his form is abysmal in terms of what's right for bent over rows, but nobody says anything. Again, is this really bad form or is this the right way to build muscle?

Look at :19 seconds into the video - Ronnie Coleman is rowing four and looks like he's using PERFECT form compared to Johnnie Jackson - so who is doing what right here?

Finally, I reference Phil Hernon's training again, here's the vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5CxkBior1k

All of his guys are saying "good form" "perfect form". And yet there's plenty of movement and swaying. Did he get this way because of or in spite of? I vote for because of. Can't argue with the results.

I know it's a hard argument to make, but seriously - most of the injuries I've seen or heard are from unnatural movements or overstretching or using "too perfect" form, which doesn't even make sense to me, but for arguments sake let's just assume someone can be "too" perfect.

Unless, you mean, this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziDlERGRzKw

Super hardcore triples with 355? I'll make the argument that despite his form, he's obviously using a hell of a lot more arms then he is chest. Yet his form is perfect.

Oh well, who knows.

Moen · Dec 10, 2006

Looser definately builds more muscle from my own experience.

And if someone tells me my form is bad I tell them I'm not interested in weighted ballet

Massive G · Dec 10, 2006

I basically control the negative and have done so for years and made very good gains. I don't count the negative just make sure for the most part it comes down kinda slow pause and explode back up pause again.
I like this type of training and always trained pretty strict but got into TUT training under Polquins advice in the late 1990's and my gains increased. I was basically training very strict. but since then have loosened it up to just controlling the downward and not bouncing it back up.
I perform most of my reps and sets a little bit fater than in these vids of Jason Wojo but the action is similar.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EueLwW0OnCU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1AZebtYyA0&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bpn7lbHo4L0&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1YwkX6gmyM&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2LrkCwA0yA&mode=related&search=
I don't think people need to train super strict to grow, but should control it somewhat.

Adrenaline Rush · Dec 10, 2006

definitely agree with Massive G...control the negative, explode as fast as possible without using momentum on the concentric... i think too many people get wrapped up in the amount on the bar, and even when In-human trained me (DC'in it), In-human always and I mean always told me to NEVER safrifice form for weight....."weight will come, form is everything"...I feel you need to train the muscle and not the ego

happy · Dec 10, 2006

i see men in the gym useing heavy dumbells for different exersices and i can,t
use them with good form but still these men come week after week but the have no muscles

Jrflex10er · Dec 10, 2006

intensity with good (not great) form will do good....these people that you see that are not getting any bigger don't have enough intensity in their workouts and they don't have a diet even close to the growing phase.

bgmke7 · Dec 10, 2006

i believe its all about control.the goof ball boucing 225 off his chest does not have the weight under control.when a movement is done correctly it may look like someone is using momentum but really they are not.if the weight is controled on negative so that the tendons and joints arent comprimised and you explode on the positive it may look like you are using momentum but really your not(its nearly impossible to keep your body perfectly still while training with weights).also i know from my experience that my range of motion has decreased in some of my lifts.i just know how i want or need the muscle to feel and always using a full range of motion just isnt right for me.i have actually injuryed myself doing the text book range of motions...........this is where just anyone isnt capable of training properly.its takes some time to learn.its kinda hard for me to expain in words because it really is a feel............at the minimum the weight must be controlled on the negative(tore my pec not adhering to this rule

)