Why the High dosages?

[ghostdog128]

Wow, I'm reading some of the dosages people are using nowadays. I think it's crazy for guys with no intentions of competing. I'm 30 now and have only run 5 cycles starting when I was 27. I've never gone over a total of 600mg of total injectables. And now I stay around 350 of test a week with some aromasin for water.. every now and then I'll throw some tren a in there at 200mg/week. I have no intentions of competing and all I strive for is to look good and feel good and i get it on those dosages..

I think guys are trying to gain to much to fast. Whatever happened to slowing things down and putting your time in. May I'm old fashioned and totally off, oh well I'm off my soap box now..

 

[STORM SHADOW]

I can agree and disagree.
First issue:
Putting time in, slowing down etc. Well if one is a competitor one knows that the opponent isn't slowing down, not in boxing, BBing, or any competition.

Dosages: hmmm when one starts can one judge? I read one of the BBing Mags once that did an issue on an exclusive with some Pro BBer and he claimed his drug costs exceeded $60 g's a year. This cost would prolly include all drugs, not just Steroids.

Everybody has their own reason to start and at do certain dosages. Hell I remember on the old Fina Board a member was on his third year (I believe), of non stop Tren Ace usage.

THE STORM

 

[ghostdog128]

Storm,
I can see your points. I guess I was asking more of a rhetorical question for guys with no intentions of competing.

For those that want to compete, yes I agree they must maximize their time and get up to competition weights and sizes fast. As far as dosages, I also see your point. Who am I to judge.. I am nobody to judge but for those that don't compete why subject your body to the additional stresses when we can probably to the size we want on reasonable dosages. Just some questions to maybe provoke some discussion.

 

[STORM SHADOW]

Storm,
I can see your points. I guess I was asking more of a rhetorical question for guys with no intentions of competing.

For those that want to compete, yes I agree they must maximize their time and get up to competition weights and sizes fast. As far as dosages, I also see your point. Who am I to judge.. I am nobody to judge but for those that don't compete why subject your body to the additional stresses when we can probably to the size we want on reasonable dosages. Just some questions to maybe provoke some discussion.

I hope you were not taking what I said as Dissing you my brother. Very good questions you ask indeed... they need discussed. It just pisses me the fuck off that law makers with an agenda to capitalize on their careers and nothing more took performance enhancers out of the Dr's office and put it underground. Had they left well enough alone, tons of literature would have been written and scientist would have been paging over the data to find the healthy sweet spot by now... but noooooooooooooo! Society is turning upside down. Now when you even light up a cigarette a cop will stop you and say "that better be a joint or you're going to jail" . pfffft I swear to God.

THE STORM

 

[OuchThatHurts]

Storm,
I can see your points. I guess I was asking more of a rhetorical question for guys with no intentions of competing.

For those that want to compete, yes I agree they must maximize their time and get up to competition weights and sizes fast. As far as dosages, I also see your point. Who am I to judge.. I am nobody to judge but for those that don't compete why subject your body to the additional stresses when we can probably to the size we want on reasonable dosages. Just some questions to maybe provoke some discussion.

ghostdog,
Remember that what works for you doesn't work for everyone. Maybe a guy wants to look competition condition and never even compete at all. Maybe 350mg of test is just not enough or even still 600mg (penny for penny) produces a much better anabolic response. Others, still, prefer not to do any gear and just train with creatine, tribulus, and tongcat (or whatever).

It's sounds like you have made up your mind about your goals and what will work for you. That's great! Now ask yourself if you want to make those decisions for the rest of us.

 

[Vespa103]

Well I see that argument a lot about guys who never plan to compete I don't think thats a fair argument people have there reasons and you can't say one is better than another, I know I am not addressing the question of dosage and what is needed or excessive, I just don't think the guy who competes is somehow more righteous(sp), to each his own

 

[ghostdog128]

ghostdog,
It's sounds like you have made up your mind about your goals and what will work for you. That's great! Now ask yourself if you want to make those decisions for the rest of us.

I never intended to sounds self rightoues or anything. I understand the reasons for the dosages and no I don't think my way is the only way. My original post was meant to ask why are relatively new gear users jumping right into high dosages

 

[bellicose]

why do new guys take cell-tech, bounce 225lbs off their chest, and do all sorts of other crazy things? Because they've seen someone big do it...simple as that.

As far as dosages, high works so much better than low. I've been in the game a while though and have built up to 2gms over a couple years. At first got great gains at 300mg a week.
Nowadays, I'll stay high for only 5 weeks at a time then go back to 500mgs.

 

[BigWilly]

As far as newbies starting out high...and like belicose stated, blindly following others...or mimiking the big boys...

IMO one needs to explore on their own to find out what works best...start low and work up....the less you can use the better obviously...but we all don't react the same. I don't get the same sort of reaction on 400mg EQ as my buddy does I need double that!

BW

 

[clone1020]

I can see where ghost dog is coming from. I dont think he means to cause trouble or annoy anyone.
I must admit that I am back after a 15 yr lay off from the gym and in those days gear was avaliable as it is now. I had a chat with my old training partner about dosages earlier this month, he laffed at the amounts some are taking and are none competitors.
He had to me, a valid point when he thought alot of it ws down to the society we live in now. We all want success and we want it yesterday.

A once whispered about in the locker room subject is now broadcast across the globe anyone from kids to pros have access to the info on here and this is one reason things have moved on.
The older timers in here will know what I mean, it was discussed amongst a few trusted companions, Now me sitting in the UK can find out what some guy in the US is doing to prep for a comp.
A breakthrough that would have taken months to catch on can now be globally announced in a few seconds, so we advance faster than ever before.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

I never intended to sounds self rightoues or anything.

I wasn't attempting to say you were. I just misinterpreted what you were saying (or what I thought you were attempting to say).

We all have our reasons for doing what we do. Some peoples' reasons may be as obvious as wanting to be a competitive bodybuilder/powerlifter. Others may simply not be satisfied with their appearance and want to look and feel better. Some may have reasons we'll never fully understand.

As far as dosages. I am in agreement with you. I've seen some scary first-time cycles posted here for critique. I would attribute a lot of that to misinterpreted research or perhaps misleading articles. Articles written and intended for advanced users may not be specific enough to point out that they are indeed for advanced users only. Any way you slice it, a rediculously highly dosed and stacked first cycle can really only be attributed to ignorance. Maybe a kinder way to say it might be 'misjudgement'.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

A once whispered about in the locker room subject is now broadcast across the globe anyone from kids to pros have access to the info on here and this is one reason things have moved on.
The older timers in here will know what I mean, it was discussed amongst a few trusted companions, Now me sitting in the UK can find out what some guy in the US is doing to prep for a comp.
A breakthrough that would have taken months to catch on can now be globally announced in a few seconds, so we advance faster than ever before.

I don't know if I want to call myself an old-timer but I do remember the days you mentioned above. I didn't use then but my buddies did and I listened to hem alk in hushed voices and passing around a sheet of paper with an address and price list in Holland (or wherever). Not only do breakthroughs travel fast today, but also MISINFORMATION. So the bad advice you gave to your lifting bud 15 years ago is now being read by 5000 people. Conversely, this also applies to warnings about scammers, bad practices, dangerous products, known bad batches, etc. Perhaps it balances out, perhaps it doesn't but it is what it is and there's no doubt about that. But you definitely made a very GOOD point.

 

[Liphted]

I'm with you ghost, I try to keep dosages fairly low mainly because I still respond well to them. When that stops happening, and I'm pretty sure it will, I probably will increase though.

To answer your question, I think there are many reasons people who are non-competitive are using large amounts of gear. I know when did my first cycle I said to myself I'll only do this once to get over the hump, but once you see what you can do to your body with the aid of gear (and a good diet of course) it becomes truly addicting. Once you've done a cycle, lifting is never the same. I think a lot of bro's see the changes that take place and think, well what will happen with just a little bit more until they find themselves taking rather large amounts for their goals.

Also, the society we live in today is conducive to this type of behavior. We want more for less, we're told to work smart not hard, we want excess and we want it now!

Anyways, this is taking to long and I'm just not seeing any results from all this typing

 

[cal]

the post is a rhetorical "question"

can't imagine that one couldn't figure out the possible reasons...

to each his own...how does competing make a difference, not like very many make any money...doing to "justify" it.

a trophy...i guess makes it better if you do high amounts than someone who simply enjoys it...

again...very simply possible reason...was someone expecting a deep, highly philosophical answer or a scientific answer...

 

[dragonfire101]

I have a question. If someone drinks a few beers on the weekend and watches a game its considered ok. When someone is an alcoholic and drinks every day affecting health and possibly other things in their life it becomes substance abuse.

When high dosages of gear are used can it be looked at as substance abuse. When is it no longer enhancing a healthy life style or oneself and an issue. Or is this just overlooked because one does not view gear as a recreational drug so it can not ever be used excessively to cause the body harm in any way.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

I have a question. If someone drinks a few beers on the weekend and watches a game its considered ok. When someone is an alcoholic and drinks every day affecting health and possibly other things in their life it becomes substance abuse.

When high dosages of gear are used can it be looked at as substance abuse. When is it no longer enhancing a healthy life style or oneself and an issue. Or is this just overlooked because one does not view gear as a recreational drug so it can not ever be used excessively to cause the body harm in any way.

I've often wondered the same thing. I deal with addictions all the time and steroids seem to really be in a class by themselves in this regard. If you think about it thoroughly, you can't help but notice that ALL addictions are chemical related. Eating addictions, sex, addictions, drug addictions are all the same in that whether produced by the body itself or an introduced drug, the addict is compelled toward that chemical (i.e. serotonin, cocaine, etc.) that gives them a pleasurable feeling or helps them to forget an unpleasant one (which is really still the same thing). What's the difference then, between a person addicted to porn and someone addicted to codeine? Both persons are addicts and both are addicted to the chemical sensation that either will provide for them. Let there be no doubt that addictions are chemical in nature - whether released by the hypothalamus or an IV needle.

Looking now at steroids... This is much more complicated because while they are not physically addictive, they are certainly psychologically addictive. Although, as we all have seen, there can be physical dependence which does necessarily indicate addiction at all but I mention it because you guys are clever and will call me out on it. As with all psychological addictions, some individuals have, unfortunately, a higher propensity towards psychological addictions. For instance, you can actually have an "addictive personality". The addictive personality has issues beyond the addictions that pull them towards addictions themselves (i.e. eating too much). With steroids, while you are not addicted to the physical sensation they provide while being used you may be psychologically addicted to the results after use (for example, constantly flexing in a mirror). This newfound size, strength and power is your 'rush'. This is not to say that all individuals will respond this way, but in the spirit of the thread, I thought it may be good to have it in for the beginners or about-to-be's: Make certain you know EXACTLY what you are doing them for and to what end. Being frustrated and tired of people kicking sand in your face is not a good reason.

One last consideration is that most drugs used recreationally are mind altering. There is more than enough evidence to adequately argue that steroids are mind altering to some degree but they are not used for these effects. In fact, these effects are considered by most users to be unpleasant side effects.

It does get quite complicated and although a headache, addiction is certainly something that individuals need to be constantly aware or - for example, what compels you to do the things you do? Is it by free choice or is there something driving you? These are things that all people need to be ever cognizant.

 

[STORM SHADOW]

Or it may be something very simple not chemically related what so ever which is where I stand. This goes back to ancient times and exalted in Ancient Greece.... shrouded in antiquity, heralded in Legend and displayed in Art and magificant Statuesques and handed down the centuries in Myth... there were no steroids during this period. Man's Ego. Man's Vanity. Probably most prominent in Ancient Greece, Ancient Rome, and one might say... 'Rabid' amongst the greatest war tribe the planet ever knew... the 'Barbarians'. The Germanic and Celtic tribes... gawwwd I could write books about them.
Next time you look in the mirror and see that certain look in your eyes, the muscles bulging, the inner need to be bigger, stronger, faster. Something deep down in your soul driving you to be different and not knowing why think of what I will say next. The Germanic and Celtic Tribes were driven by tribal culture to be this way through selective breeding to make greater warriors and it's still in our blood.

We have done it with animals for thousands of years... little did our Tribal Ancestors realize what they were doing to themselves to have the end result of their decendants. One can say we are selectively reversing it now. A petite woman would have had no place in our Tribal History as they would have been seen as a woman that would bear children that would contaminate the blood line, she would not be allowed to bear children or be used as a slave to the tribe as the massive warrior wanting bigger, stronger, more aggressive offspring would have went for the same type of woman.

I see it in myself very easy. I could go for the petite cheer leader type girl that is always attracted to me but I end up (newly), married to a girl whom in my first two months of training her she's benching 135 lbs and squating 190. She will be a powerlifter soon and compete. Did I do this because I'm compelled to by ancient breeding? who knows?

THE STORM

 

[OuchThatHurts]

Or it may be something very simple not chemically related what so ever which is where I stand. This goes back to ancient times and exalted in Ancient Greece.... shrouded in antiquity, heralded in Legend and displayed in Art and magificant Statuesques and handed down the centuries in Myth... there were no steroids during this period. Man's Ego. Man's Vanity. Probably most prominent in Ancient Greece, Ancient Rome, and one might say... 'Rabid' amongst the greatest war tribe the planet ever knew... the 'Barbarians'. The Germanic and Celtic tribes... gawwwd I could write books about them.
Next time you look in the mirror and see that certain look in your eyes, the muscles bulging, the inner need to be bigger, stronger, faster. Something deep down in your soul driving you to be different and not knowing why think of what I will say next. The Germanic and Celtic Tribes were driven by tribal culture to be this way through selective breeding to make greater warriors and it's still in our blood.

We have done it with animals for thousands of years... little did our Tribal Ancestors realize what they were doing to themselves to have the end result of their decendants. One can say we are selectively reversing it now. A petite woman would have had no place in our Tribal History as they would have been seen as a woman that would bear children that would contaminate the blood line, she would not be allowed to bear children or be used as a slave to the tribe as the massive warrior wanting bigger, stronger, more aggressive offspring would have went for the same type of woman.

I see it in myself very easy. I could go for the petite cheer leader type girl that is always attracted to me but I end up (newly), married to a girl whom in my first two months of training her she's benching 135 lbs and squating 190. She will be a powerlifter soon and compete. Did I do this because I'm compelled to by ancient breeding? who knows?

THE STORM

I understand the attraction to a stronger female type but I also believe that it is in no way abnormal to prefer petite women. I myself prefer petite women. Can you explain the beginning of your post better? I'm not sure I understand you. Are you suggesting that the desire to be bigger, stronger, faster is the result of some type of bio-engineered selectivity in our forefathers?

If so, I believe that while possible, is unlikely. I would see a case like the following to be more logical.

A girl in her youth is abused by a dominant male. Over the course of time, her mind begins to associate smallness with vulnerability. In her post-pubescent years, she begins to train to be stronger and stronger. She is not aware of her motives at all but carries them out subconsciously. The stronger she becomes, the "safer" she becomes. Not because she is actually safer but because of the remnant of something in the past is still maintaining that association in the present.

Now the above is just an example and I used a female but could just as easily used a male. This is clearly not the only motive for men and women pursuing strength, size, etc. Like I said, we all have our reasons. I'm sure these range from the perfectly acceptable to the outright bizarre.

As a rock climber, I find everything about rock climbing to be analogous to life - upward, determination, focus, goal-oriented, etc. But within the sport are many who, put bluntly, are extremely neurotic if not completely insane. Perhaps BBing attracts a few of these as well.

 

[STORM SHADOW]

Yes... I do believe in most people of Germanic/Celtic decent it's engineered into us by our ancestors as only the strongest shall survive. It was not a time of minds, it was a time of brutal battle field strength to weild steel. It wasn't until the end of Feudalism and the dawn of Industrial revolusion that I believe it started to slow down finally maybe reversing at the advent of Hollywood. But it's still in the blood of many to continue such mating practices subconciously. Of course if one is not of that blood line and prefers the mind as their strength... they may be of the blood line 'Agriculture' and not 'Hunter Forager/Warrior'. Don't get me wrong... the warrior is not necessarily less intelligent than the Agriculturist blood line as it takes amazing strategy to win war.
I however like full figure women that have the capacity to show great feats of strength... I do believe this is a built in mechanism from my ancestors. I'm actually repulsed by petite... don't know why as most I know look at them and can't control their hard on.
I do believe that our attraction to a mate is primitive in nature and compells us to bring about a certain offspring.
As I write this I think about a study that was written by some Rocket Scientists for the Department of Defense. I was standing at a urinal at a Army Guard Special Forces HQ in Colorado. Of course I'm reading all the printed material they put above the urinals because otherwise nobody would read it lol. Anyway... the study used mathamatics based per capita rating and showed that 'per capita' people of Germanic/Celtic decent will overwhelmingly lead toward the higher combat arts such as Airborne, Ranger, Special Forces while others will tend to become 'per capita' support. Furthering my belief that it's all based on this Barbaric breeding practices of our ancestors.

THE STORM

P.S. I'm really enjoying the convo with you my brother.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

Yes... I do believe in most people of Germanic/Celtic decent it's engineered into us by our ancestors as only the strongest shall survive. It was not a time of minds, it was a time of brutal battle field strength to weild steel. It wasn't until the end of Feudalism and the dawn of Industrial revolusion that I believe it started to slow down finally maybe reversing at the advent of Hollywood. But it's still in the blood of many to continue such mating practices subconciously. Of course if one is not of that blood line and prefers the mind as their strength... they may be of the blood line 'Agriculture' and not 'Hunter Forager/Warrior'. Don't get me wrong... the warrior is not necessarily less intelligent than the Agriculturist blood line as it takes amazing strategy to win war.
I however like full figure women that have the capacity to show great feats of strength... I do believe this is a built in mechanism from my ancestors. I'm actually repulsed by petite... don't know why as most I know look at them and can't control their hard on.
I do believe that our attraction to a mate is primitive in nature and compells us to bring about a certain offspring.
As I write this I think about a study that was written by some Rocket Scientists for the Department of Defense. I was standing at a urinal at a Army Guard Special Forces HQ in Colorado. Of course I'm reading all the printed material they put above the urinals because otherwise nobody would read it lol. Anyway... the study used mathamatics based per capita rating and showed that 'per capita' people of Germanic/Celtic decent will overwhelmingly lead toward the higher combat arts such as Airborne, Ranger, Special Forces while others will tend to become 'per capita' support. Furthering my belief that it's all based on this Barbaric breeding practices of our ancestors.

THE STORM

P.S. I'm really enjoying the convo with you my brother.

I always enjoy an intelligent discussion and nothing I say is in any way meant to engender ill will toward anyone. As I read the above, and after having read a few books (okay, a lot of books) on evolutionary biology, I have to concede you have a point. Particularly in a military sense their may be some evolutionary, ancestral advantages. I don't have to tell you, as you probably already know, the life expectancies and strength of brown eyes to blue, brown hair to blonde. Anyone reading this can learn this info for themselves as I refuse to write here. BUT!!!

Make sure you don't forget this. Using the earth itself as an example, one can easily determine that it's not the strongest that survive.... but the smartest. And the chicken breast in my microwave oven right now is a testament to the fact that my ancestry did well in their offspring.