PWO : Your reasons and Logic? : Carry on from JT's thread

jayuk · Sep 1, 2007

All

Further to JT's thread, I got a fair few PM's on the whole protocol (and to be honest with the supporting research\data and correct implementation; the protocol is a no brainer in terms of lean mass gains and fat loss, somwhat simultaneously)

An important part of the Bodybuilders regime is Carbs (allegedly) and PWO. I beleive this area is also somewhat misguided in terms of what we think we are doing by consuming countless grams of carbs; PWO.

SO my question to those reading this, is

a) Why do you take PWO
b) What determines the amount and source of carbs that you consume?

I ask these questions, as I am happy to put forward alot of data\research\EXPERIENCE on why we may all have been out right WRONG!

Jayuk

km2000 · Sep 1, 2007

pwo i take in 20 grams of eaa's, 15g of bcaa's, 60g vitargo.,5 g taurine, and a few other supps....

the amount of carbs i consume pwo is determined by how low i feel i depleted my glycogen stores, the source is usually vitargo because it dosent cause any upset feeling and i believe it is assimilated faster.....

BrooklynBB · Sep 1, 2007

jayuk said:
All

Further to JT's thread, I got a fair few PM's on the whole protocol (and to be honest with the supporting research\data and correct implementation; the protocol is a no brainer in terms of lean mass gains and fat loss, somwhat simultaneously)

An important part of the Bodybuilders regime is Carbs (allegedly) and PWO.

Not allegedly, it's been proven countless times that carbs not only replenish glycogen stores but have a protein sparing effect as well, especially post workout.

jayuk said:
I beleive this area is also somewhat misguided in terms of what we think we are doing by consuming countless grams of carbs; PWO.

SO my question to those reading this, is

a) Why do you take PWO

You mean "Why do you take a Post WorkOut Shake? If that's the question then it's simple: Your glycogen stores are low and this is the best time to replenish them.

jayuk said:
b) What determines the amount and source of carbs that you consume?

Not sure what you mean. Do you mean if you're on a budget how would you consume one? It's simple for me - 100 grams of carbs, 60 grams protein, 0 fat.

jayuk said:
I ask these questions, as I am happy to put forward alot of data\research\EXPERIENCE on why we may all have been out right WRONG!

Jayuk

So you're saying you're just asking a rhetorical question and really have the answers. I'd love to know what you have to show us, please don't wait and just post up what your thoughts are.

Massive G · Sep 1, 2007

Honestly I think if you take in some high quality simple carbs and protein you will be good to go.
That could be a simple as a high quality whey like (SynthePure) and dextrose or maltodextran.
Or it could be as "complicated" as BCAA's and waxy maize or vitargo. some people actually separate feedings meaning taking the carbs first then bucking up the amino's. some take additional leucine and or instantized BCAA's.

I wrote this over at IM in response to a post about "was waxy maize worth it"
I drink the BCAA's/waxy/glycerin shake before during and after. I am not doing many shakes right now as MRP's or daily protein addition, so I usally add in the dicreatine malate as well.

To answer your initial question I think,-I'll throw out what I have done as pre and post work out nutrition over the years-
when I started out it was simply a met-rx and banana or whey and banana or some type of fruit.

I knew a mix of proteins and carbs were best from reading the muscle mags as there was no internet.
Back then in the ealry 1990's supps were still in their infancy creatine was just coming out and they were expensive and money was/is tight when you are young-so I tired things when I could afford them-so trust me I understand that aspect. I remember couting out amino acid caps like they were gold lol.

The next thing I did was whey and grape juice then I graduated to whey malto dextrose combos with different types of whey hydro and etc when companies like protein customizer out. I was using waxy and BCAA's for a while last year or more vitargo and BCAA's (these HAD to be split because honestly the vitargo mixes well with nothing including itself.)

To be honest on all this-the little things do make a difference and they add up over time-whey and grape juice are superior to egg whites and oatmeal and whey malto dex are superior to grape juice and whey and so on and so on till you get to the more advanced combos we have now.......
BUT only if one has everything else in order-meaning a kid eating haphazardly through out the day doing these exotic blends of aminos and carbs come pre and powo will not grow as well as a kid using malto/whey and eating all his meals on the spot.

What I am saying is if HALF the people put as much thought or effort into their daily meal intake each day as they do their pre and post work out nutrition we'd see a lot more big people out there. Honestly the gains come from eating and supplementing day by day through out it and not in just meal with some fast acting supps.

For all you guys I'd try different combos and see what you respond to at different times.

I have always had a second meal after the pwo meal 30-1 hr later like the pasteurized egg whites rice or oatmeal to ease the burden on the digestion and keep blood going to the muscles and the energy to lay down growth in that window.

and the amounts are gonna vary between people should you take 60 gms of Vitargo like KM2000 does, or should you take 80 grams of waxy maxy like me? I think it varies so I never put the exact amount in because a 180 lb newbie shouldn't be supplementing like a 280 lb vet like KM or others on here for the most part.

AWN2004 · Sep 1, 2007

It all depends on how hard I trained and what body part I am training. My main concern post training is restoring muscle glycogen. I want to try and put the "fuel" back into my cells ASAP so I can start recovering quickly. I'll use anywhere from 60-75 grams waxymaize post training with 10 grams glutamine and BCAA's. About 20 mins later I'll do 40 grams of isolate.

I had used dextrose/maltodextrin for several years until I learned about high molecular weight carbs like WM. I can truely say, all hype aside from what you see on the boards, this has made a huge difference for me. My recovery is greatly increased and I seem to get a "tight" feeling to the muscle. Not to mention my stomach is never bloated because in a short amount of time, the WM has passed through my stomach and is being absorbed. Now if I don't use any type of carbs post training do I notice a difference? Yes I do indeed. I don't feel there is a need to do tons of sugary carbs post training or gorge yourself with hundreds of grams because you "think" your body needs it. Im my opinion its all about learning and listening to your body and adjusting the right amount of carbs to be taken in and the right TYPE of carbs. What I would like to hear is if you (jayuk) don't believe that carbs are needed to restore muscle/liver glycogen after an intense training session, what do you use? Have you tested this theory to see if your own body responds better? I'm qurious to know.

JETHRO TULL · Sep 1, 2007

I learn a lot from all these discussions!

Thanks, fellas.

W8killa · Sep 1, 2007

What do those high molecular weight carbs do to insulin levels post workout? Everyone knows that the dextrose was the way to go based on the glycemic index to use insulin to your advantage. I have yet to try waxy maize but it seems promising. Maybe a combo of fast acting short and long chained high GI carbs are the way to go such as whitebread or white rice/dextrose/whey.

doug1 · Sep 1, 2007

I quit doing the whey protein thing and went with only aminos and whole food sources about 6 weeks ago...i've bought my last bag/tub of protein. I have been on a restricted cal diet and losing fat, i have retained all muscle without huge gobs of whey protein. Kudos to Phil's LBA's.

AWN2004 · Sep 1, 2007

Hopefully Homonunculus will chime in on this one.....I seeeeee yooooou down there...haha. He would have some good information to share.

aesop · Sep 1, 2007

W8killa said:
What do those high molecular weight carbs do to insulin levels post workout? Everyone knows that the dextrose was the way to go based on the glycemic index to use insulin to your advantage. I have yet to try waxy maize but it seems promising. Maybe a combo of fast acting short and long chained high GI carbs are the way to go such as whitebread or white rice/dextrose/whey.

Waxy maize is high GI. It is basically the plant form of glycogen it is composed of long chains of glucose with tons of branching. As soon as it gets to the GI it is rapidly made into glucose.

jayuk · Sep 2, 2007

Guys (and girls)

Ok, so lets first outline what we all generally do for PWO : Post Workout Nutriton

We generally go to the gym, and then perform our "work" and then sit back and have a mixture\concoction of carbs. This would namely be eitehr\or maltodextrin, WMS, Glucose, Protein, and a few other bits and peices as good measure. It variably ends up being 70-120gm Carbs and 50-100gm protein (whey f some sort), and if you are really lucky; some BCAA's

Why have we all done this?. Well because that's what we have known! This is what we have been told! So therefore if I needed 70gms carbs, hell Im going to take 100gms carbs as Im the tuff guy and I know I train more than the next person. Right? Wrong? Shut up and get on with it Jayuk

Now, i have th luxury of reviewing a fair amount of online and offline journals from world leading research insitiutions (gold standard). Alot of them are involved in all aspects of physiology and how the body responds to stimulus. This can be nutrition, exercise, hormonal, etc etc.

One thing I started to notice when alot of the newer data started emerging was how little we REALLY know about carbohydrates and replenishment. Suffice to say that the mainstream Supplement-company-sponsored media would have us beleive that we MUST consume high amounts of high glycemic carbs PWO and we must now ALSO take carbs Pre as well!

So which is it?. Do we do this? Do we continue creating the spike PWO and driving those nutrients into muscle cells AS WELL AS fat cells. Wouldnt it be good if there was a way in which we could drive the nutrients into the MUSCLE cells with minimal spill over to fat cells?

Well lets park that side from the moment. Let me first spout some shite about PWO. To me, every PWO should have, carbs, protein, BCAA, Beta Alanine, Creatine Mono, OKA and AKG and LEUCINE. This should be a MAINSTAY of everyones PWO. I cant beleive how many DON'T take these supplements in the PWO.; but anyway.

We know that the entier human body has an upper limit as to how much muscle glycogen it can store? We can assume that the average human body contains \ can store 500gms of glycogen. Now using restricted diet protocol and ten following a supercompensation protocol we can probably drive this up to even 700gms; but after a while it will fall down to the average.

Ok, I here you say...what's Jayuk's point now?

My point is that your PWO should be based on YOUR worout mode\modality, frequency and training type!

I refer to the following!.

Muscle metabolism during intense, heavy-resistance exercise.

Tesch PA, Colliander EB, Kaiser P.

The objective of this study was to examine the muscle metabolic changes occurring during intense and prolonged, heavy-resistance exercise. Muscle biopsies were obtained from the vastus lateralis of 9 strength trained athletes before and 30 s after an exercise regimen comprising 5 sets each of front squats, back squats, leg presses and knee extensions using barbell or variable resistance machines. Each set was executed until muscle failure, which occurred within 6-12 muscle contractions. The exercise: rest ratio was approximately 1:2 and the total performance time was 30 min. Concentrations of adenosine triphosphate (ATP), creatine phosphate (CP), creatine, glycogen, glucose, glucose-6-phosphate (G-6-P), alpha-glycerophosphate (alpha-G-P) and lactate were determined on freeze-dried tissue samples using fluorometric assays. Blood samples were analyzed for lactate and glucose. The exercise produced significant reductions in ATP (p less than 0.01) and CP (p less than 0.001), while alpha-G-P more than doubled (p less than 0.05), glucose increased tenfold (p less than 0.001) and G-6-P fourfold (p less than 0.001). Muscle lactate concentration at cessation of exercise averaged 17.3 mmol X kg-1 w. w. Glycogen concentration decreased (p less than 0.001) from 160 to 118 mmol X kg-1 w. w.

It is concluded that high intensity, heavy resistance exercise is associated with a high rate of energy utilization through phosphagen breakdown and activation of glycogenolysis.

Thats just 25% drop in muscle glycogen!!!! for 30 mins of HIT[/B] JAYUK

Another

ELEVATED MUSCLE GLYCOGEN AND ANAEROBIC ENERGY PRODUCTION DURING EXHAUSTIVE EXERCISE IN MAN

BY J. BANGSBO, T. E. GRAHAM*, B. KIENS AND B. SALTIN
From the August Krogh Institute, University of Copenhagen, Copenhagen, Denmark

SUMMARY
1. The effect of elevated muscle glycogen on anaerobic energy production, and glycogenolytic and glycolytic rates was examined in man by using the one-legged knee extension model, which enables evaluation of metabolism in a well-defined muscle group.

2. Six subjects performed very intense exercise to exhaustion (EXI) with one leg with normal glycogen (control) and one with a very high concentration (HG). With each leg, the exhaustive exercise was repeated after 1 h of recovery (EX2). Prior to and immediately after each exercise bout, a muscle biopsy was taken from m. vastus lateralis of the active leg for determination of glycogen, lactate, creatine phosphate (CP) and nucleotide concentrations. Measurements of leg blood flow and femoral arterial-venous differences for oxygen content, lactate, glucose, free fatty acids and potassium were performed before and regularly during the exhaustive exercises.

3. Muscle glycogen concentration prior to EXI was 87-0 and 176-8 mmnol (kg wet wt)-f for the control and HG leg, respectively, and the decreases during exercise were 26-3 (control) and 25-6 (HG) mmol (kg wet wt)-1. The net glycogen utilization rate was not related to pre-exercise muscle glycogen concentration. Muscle lactate concentration at the end of EXI was 18-8 (control) and 16-1 (HG) mmol (kg wet wt)-1, and the net lactate production (including lactate release) was 26-5 (control) and 23-6 (HG) mmol (kg wet wt)-'. Rate of lactate production was unrelated to initial muscle glycogen level. Time to exhaustion for EX1 was the same for the control leg (2-82 min) and HG leg (2-92 min).

4. Muscle glycogen concentration before EX2 was 14 mmol (kg wet wt)-1 lower than prior to EXI. During EX2 the muscle glycogen decline of 19-6 mmol (kg wet wt)-' for the control leg was less than for the HG leg (26-2 mmol (kg wet wt)-1). The muscle lactate concentrations at the end of EX2 were about 7-8 mmol (kg wet wt)-1 lower compared to EXI, and the net lactate production was reduced by 40 %. The exercise time during EX2 was 0 35 min shorter for the control leg, while no difference was observed for the HG leg.

5. Total reduction in ATP and CP was similar during the four exercise bouts, while a higher accumulation of inosine monophosphate (IMP) occurred during EX2 for the control leg (0-72 mmol (kg wet wt)-1) compared to the HG leg (0-20 mmol (kg wet wt)-1). There was no difference in leg oxygen uptake or leg oxygen deficit between the exercise bouts.

6. It is concluded that: (a) elevated muscle glycogen does not influence glycogenolytic or glycolytic rates and fatigue; (b) previous intense exercise reduces lactate production and time to exhaustion in spite of recovery being long enough for lactate (pH) and K+ to return to pre-exercise levels. These findings suggest that muscle and blood lactate concentrations are not the only crucial factors for inhibiting anaerobic carbohydrate usage during intense skeletal muscle contractions and the development of fatigue

HMMMM now lets see...weve only used, again, 20-30% muscle glycogen!

Jayuk

To Be Continued..shortly

jayuk · Sep 2, 2007

continued from above...

Ok, so what have we just seen?

We have seen that glycogen depletion is demand driven, and we can also safely say that the amount of muscle glycogen we deplete in our workouts can be overestimated to date!

So how does this all help us? and for gods sake WHAT THE FECK has this got to do with low carb diets?

Ok, now if we relate glycogen depletion to those trainees who follow a low card, high fat high protein diet we can now start to play on a few things

* During workouts, and assuming once we have made the metabolic shift to high fat, the body still requires carbs to fire on all cylinders? right? WRONG!! Once the metabolic shift has been made ATP and its source can be fat substare and carbs via GlycoG! YES!

Evidence From 13C NMR of Human Muscle for Glycogen Turnover During Exercise

There are many studies of the metabolic roles of muscle glycogen in exercise. High glycogen levels improve endurance, [4,5] whereas depletion of glycogen is often associated with the onset of exhaustion. However, the specific need for glycogen in long-term moderate exercise has not been explained, and no specific connection between glycogen levels and fatigue has been possible. Nor have the steady-state measurements of glycogen concentrations been related to rapid energy bursts during the millisecond contractions of muscle fibers. Holloszy and Kohrt,[7] in summarizing fundamental questions that remain about muscle energetics, asked “Why is muscle glycogen necessary for exercise of moderate and high intensities?”

Our suggested answer to this question is that glycogenolysis supplies the ATP needed within milliseconds of contraction and that the glycogen pools are replenished between contractions. A consequence is that during exercise glycogen is continually synthesized and degraded so that plasma glucose flows in and out of glycogen.

So the aboev alludes to the fact that if on a low carb diet, and with protein available.....ermm well...guess what we acn drive our workouts by?...PROTEIN and GLYCOG!

Anyway, Ive shifted focus for a second there!

Back to PWO. So if we follow a low carb protocol....and want to get an optimal PWO, what do we do?..Well, we keep carbs in the PWO no greater then 50g and then ensure we make the shift back to fats as the main fuel for the body! We merely need\want to TOP UP our day to day muscle glycogen, as we know that during the workouts ATP can be produced via the floating protein i have in my body via Glycog!

Does this all make sense so far?

Well! It all sounds good! but does it work well? YEP!...I can only say TRY IT YOURSELF! Get in the metabolic shift, let the Protein be your carbs during the workouts, and merely top up your muscle glycogen via the bodies inherent processes!

Jayuk

profitness · Sep 2, 2007

Huh?

Lol, Actually I stay on a sort of CKD diet and I notice on low carbs or no carbs, but high dietary fats i still get good pumps and can train pretty hard. I only use the pro/simple carb/glutamine, bcaa pwo because of my gh and insulin, but its amazing how fast my body goes back to ketosis nowadays. within 4 hrs after my post workout carbs the keto stix show i am back to ketosis. So for recovery i see some benefit to a PWO shake but how much of a differnce is tuff to say. I know a pro who never did PWO shakes only after legs would he have a meal of chix/beef and potatos. He did drink lots of shakes through out the day and rearely ate many solid meals. He was muscletechs poster boy until he just got tired of bbng and 13th place finishes. Maybe if he used more exotic supps esp pwo he would have done better, who knows.

ironwill · Sep 2, 2007

I hear what you are saying and this has been basically what ive been doing by taking in around 45 grams of carbs in the form of juice or berries etc, i havent taken wms, or dextrose etc for awhile...I take in the berries mostly for the fibre aspect...
Now would all 45 grams of carbs be delivered to replenish the glycogen stores lost or would i need to take in more than 45 grams of carbs if it is in fruit form to be sure all of it is utilized and not lost along the way so to speak, (sorry im a layman).
secondly if we use 25 percent of our stores at say 500 grams, thats 125 grams we have used and we ar replacing it with around 50, is that to keep you using fats as fuel and just supplementing the glycogen while remaining a bit depleted??
Also do you believe in restoring your glycogen levels by refeeding once or twice per week, or at all??
Thanks for your insight..i learn a tonne here..

km2000 · Sep 2, 2007

JAYuk,

o.k. the problem with those studies that i see is they are using "strength trained athletes" now there are a wide spectrum of strength trained athletes out there.... and exhaustion to some is completly different to others.... i would bet my nuts there are only a small % of "strength trained athletes" that actually understand what going to full failure is, and have done it... now the study says they went to exhaustion, is that considered failure?

some big variables i see in the pwo carb intake are....
*your lbm, i am around 265 now and in single digits bf, i am obviously different then someone that is 185lbs and in the high teens for bf%. i obviously need more carbs to replinish glycogen...
*how hard you train, i agree with you that we all think we train hard, but most dont understand what hard painfull burning training is. training intensity is a major factor to pwo nutirtion, if i go in and train my biceps and thats it i will need very little carbs, but if i go in and train legs with multiple compound movements i am going to need a lot more carbs to replinish myslef..

carbs will spare protein as well, and especially pwo when you are in a catabolic state. i want to have all my aa's going to repair muscle and not have to share them with my liver to make glycogen....

from what i understadn the faster the body replinishes its glycogen stores the more energy the body has break down aa's and grow, the pwo window is veery small, and a large % of your growth takes place in that window.

i am not too worried about a little glucose leaking out of the cell after i eat my pwo shake and meal, at this time we want to have an abundance of calories , mainly carbs and pro. to take full advantage of this precious window.... now i have done my own research on this, with myself and others.. i took a few trainees that were not doing any carb pwo , only protein. i added on average 50-75g of wm and the recovery time from intense workouts increased dramatically! as did the lbm at a faster rate then with just the pro...

i guess is what i am saying is i would much rather have my aa's spared during this window and know they are all being used to repair tissue. i believe the faster glycogen levels are back up the faster recover, and more time for growth in the window....

jayuk · Sep 2, 2007

km2000 said:
..

from what i understadn the faster the body replinishes its glycogen stores the more energy the body has break down aa's and grow, the pwo window is veery small, and a large % of your growth takes place in that window.

this is where I think we have gone wrong with this commercial window of opportunity we all subscribe to. We know that if we take PWO carbs and we DONT take PWO carbs the body gets back to the maximum amount of glycogen storage at the 66 hour mark. This is with the usual 100g carbs PWO or a tsandard 50g per meal low gi carb intake......we still achieve the same thing....

Now the actualy question is, is that in the absense of carbs PWO...how does the body react?..well its well documented that the body will get the carbs from GlycoG and will still perform the physiological process that follows muscular trauma.....the Window of Opportunity has come from exactly this idea......sme bright spark though that if we give it the carbs faster it will get us recovered faster........so all may not be what we think it is........

Jayuk

jayuk · Sep 2, 2007

Just another to add

I posted in JT thread how we all get caught up on this Window Of Opp and how we all think we MUST have multiple meals of Carbohydrates in a period.....I found this which I was looking for today.

The role of dietary carbohydrates in muscle glycogen resynthesis after strenuous running

DL Costill, WM Sherman, WJ Fink, C Maresh, M Witten and JM Miller

This study examined the effect of the type, amount, and the frequency of feeding of carbohydrates on muscle glycogen resynthesis after running. Trained male runners performed a 16.1 km run at 80% VO2 max to decrease gastrocnemius glycogen levels. A complex or simple carbohydrate diet (approximately 3000 kcal) resulted in similar muscle glycogen levels 24 h after exercise. Forty-eight hours after exercise the complex carbohydrate diet resulted in significantly higher (p less than 0.05) muscle glycogen levels. Consuming increasing amounts of carbohydrate, between 88 to 648 g carbohydrate/day, resulted in increasingly larger amounts of muscle glycogen resynthesis (24 h) after exercise. Frequent feedings of a high carbohydrate diet did not enhance muscle glycogen synthesis when compared to equal amounts of carbohydrates in two meals. It appears that muscle glycogen can be normalized between daily strenuous running activity.

SO next time you are out and about..and cant get carbs dont worry!...again this isnt just ONE case of evidence, many have proved this

This one is also my favourite lol.....how it kinda alludes and breaks to everything we thought we knew about muscle glycogen resynthesis

Effect of carbohydrate ingestion on glycogen resynthesis in human liver and skeletal muscle, measured by 13C MRS
Anna Casey1, Rob Mann2, Katie Banister2, John Fox1, Peter G. Morris2, Ian A. Macdonald1, and Paul L. Greenhaff1

1 School of Biomedical Sciences, University of Nottingham Medical School, Nottingham NG7 2UH; and 2 Department of Physics, Magnetic Resonance Centre, University of Nottingham, Nottingham NG7 2RD, United Kingdom

This study investigated the effect of carbohydrate (CHO) ingestion on postexercise glycogen resynthesis, measured simultaneously in liver and muscle (n = 6) by 13C magnetic resonance spectroscopy, and subsequent exercise capacity (n = 10). Subjects cycled at 70% maximal oxygen uptake for 83 ± 8 min on six separate occasions. At the end of exercise, subjects ingested 1 g/kg body mass (BM) glucose, sucrose, or placebo (control). Resynthesis of glycogen over a 4-h period after treatment ingestion was measured on the first three occasions, and subsequent exercise capacity was measured on occasions four through six. No glycogen was resynthesized during the control trial. Liver glycogen resynthesis was evident after glucose (13 ± 8 g) and sucrose (25 ± 5 g) ingestion, both of which were different from control (P < 0.01). No significant differences in muscle glycogen resynthesis were found among trials. A relationship between the CHO load (g) and change in liver glycogen content (g) was evident after 30, 90, 150, and 210 min of recovery (r = 0.59-0.79, P < 0.05). Furthermore, a modest relationship existed between change in liver glycogen content (g) and subsequent exercise capacity (r = 0.53, P < 0.05). However, no significant difference in mean exercise time was found (control: 35 ± 5, glucose: 40 ± 5, and sucrose: 46 ± 6 min). Therefore, 1 g/kg BM glucose or sucrose is sufficient to initiate postexercise liver glycogen resynthesis, which contributes to subsequent exercise capacity, but not muscle glycogen resynthesis.

13C magnetic resonance spectroscopy; magnetic resonance imaging; submaximal exercise

and finally...whilst on a low carb protocol....does NOT have carbs affect protein resynthesis?...well, we would all beleive so if we were to beleive the Supplements Police!

Coingestion of carbohydrate with protein does not further augment postexercise muscle protein synthesis
René Koopman,1 Milou Beelen,1 Trent Stellingwerff,1 Bart Pennings,1 Wim H. M. Saris,2 Arie K. Kies,3 Harm Kuipers,1 and Luc J. C. van Loon1,2

Departments of 1Movement Sciences and 2Human Biology, Nutrition and Toxicology Research Institute Maastricht, Maastricht University, Maastricht; and 3DSM Food Specialties, R&D, Biochemistry and Nutrition Department, Delft, The Netherlands

Submitted 28 February 2007 ; accepted in final form 1 July 2007

The present study was designed to assess the impact of coingestion of various amounts of carbohydrate combined with an ample amount of protein intake on postexercise muscle protein synthesis rates. Ten healthy, fit men (20 ± 0.3 yr) were randomly assigned to three crossover experiments. After 60 min of resistance exercise, subjects consumed 0.3 g·kg–1·h–1 protein hydrolysate with 0, 0.15, or 0.6 g·kg–1·h–1 carbohydrate during a 6-h recovery period (PRO, PRO + LCHO, and PRO + HCHO, respectively). Primed, continuous infusions with L-[ring-13C6]phenylalanine, L-[ring-2H2]tyrosine, and [6,6-2H2]glucose were applied, and blood and muscle samples were collected to assess whole body protein turnover and glucose kinetics as well as protein fractional synthesis rate (FSR) in the vastus lateralis muscle over 6 h of postexercise recovery. Plasma insulin responses were significantly greater in PRO + HCHO compared with PRO + LCHO and PRO (18.4 ± 2.9 vs. 3.7 ± 0.5 and 1.5 ± 0.2 U·6 h–1·l–1, respectively, P < 0.001). Plasma glucose rate of appearance (Ra) and disappearance (Rd) increased over time in PRO + HCHO and PRO + LCHO, but not in PRO. Plasma glucose Ra and Rd were substantially greater in PRO + HCHO vs. both PRO and PRO + LCHO (P < 0.01). Whole body protein breakdown, synthesis, and oxidation rates, as well as whole body protein balance, did not differ between experiments. Mixed muscle protein FSR did not differ between treatments and averaged 0.10 ± 0.01, 0.10 ± 0.01, and 0.11 ± 0.01%/h in the PRO, PRO + LCHO, and PRO + HCHO experiments, respectively. In conclusion, coingestion of carbohydrate during recovery does not further stimulate postexercise muscle protein synthesis when ample protein is ingested.

Oh how little we really know! Yet how much we THINK we know!

Jayuk

Tough Old Man · Sep 2, 2007

jayuk said:
All

Further to JT's thread, I got a fair few PM's on the whole protocol (and to be honest with the supporting research\data and correct implementation; the protocol is a no brainer in terms of lean mass gains and fat loss, somwhat simultaneously)

An important part of the Bodybuilders regime is Carbs (allegedly) and PWO. I beleive this area is also somewhat misguided in terms of what we think we are doing by consuming countless grams of carbs; PWO.

SO my question to those reading this, is

a) Why do you take PWO
b) What determines the amount and source of carbs that you consume?

I ask these questions, as I am happy to put forward alot of data\research\EXPERIENCE on why we may all have been out right WRONG!

Jayuk

Didn't believe in PWO in the 70's and 80's and not going to start now...IMO it's bullshit.

jayuk · Sep 2, 2007

Tough Old Man said:
Didn't believe in PWO in the 70's and 80's and not going to start now...IMO it's bullshit.

There is some merit in PWO especially to raise insulin; and somewhat to get the benefits of Leucine, OKG , CM etc etc....but I agree that what we have in todays BB culture with regards to PWO...is totally absurd.....its all been enlarged by more is better and supps companies.....

Jayuk

TooPowerful4u · Sep 2, 2007

jayuk said:
this is where I think we have gone wrong with this commercial window of opportunity we all subscribe to. We know that if we take PWO carbs and we DONT take PWO carbs the body gets back to the maximum amount of glycogen storage at the 66 hour mark. This is with the usual 100g carbs PWO or a tsandard 50g per meal low gi carb intake......we still achieve the same thing....

Now the actualy question is, is that in the absense of carbs PWO...how does the body react?..well its well documented that the body will get the carbs from GlycoG and will still perform the physiological process that follows muscular trauma.....the Window of Opportunity has come from exactly this idea......sme bright spark though that if we give it the carbs faster it will get us recovered faster........so all may not be what we think it is........

Jayuk

If that is true, explain why a bodybuilder appears "flat" during the low carb phase of a diet? This is also well known to happen. Iv personally taken pictured after 4 days low carb, and 2 days high carb. Night and day difference. If stores are restored within 66hrs regardless of carb intake, why does this happen? You cannot dispute that it DOES happen...