After fasted morning cardio, best post workout meal??

[ajdos]

the voice of reason.
stop with all this powder and pills at every turn of the day



pre intra post duing cardio during sleep before sleep when you wake

careful when you go get your mail today, that walk might be catabolic. next we will have something to take before we do yard work because you might sacrifice muscle when you cut your grass or shovel your snow

LOL! The voice of reason- it is kinda crazy sometimes the things (I) we do.

 

[ryanbCXG]

Oh and Ryan I do apologize for my harsh response, I have nothing personal against you just didn't like how you came at me.
All in all you always seemed like a good dude to me, just my habit of repsoning unkindly sometimes.
I say this because this thread was going well and I don't want to derail it.
I still stand behind what I say but other wise...
My apologies to you and the others in the thread...I just feel strongly about what Im saying is all.

Honestly it doesn't bother me at all. I am much too laid back to get worked up at all. It's the Internet I just couldn't get worked up if I wanted too. I can't even muster up the caring to get bothered by a ranting pissed off patient. They actually just make me smile and hold back laughter.

And really I only state science because it's the only thing that is used on many people and has objective measures. And normally is only to be used for experimentation which requires and open mind and a willing ness to through past ideas out the window for a bit and give a new thing the time needed to see if it could be a good thing

Anyways it's all good I understand the reactions from the vets on here

 

[ajdos]

Honestly it doesn't bother me at all. I am much too laid back to get worked up at all. It's the Internet I just couldn't get worked up if I wanted too. I can't even muster up the caring to get bothered by a ranting pissed off patient. They actually just make me smile and hold back laughter.

And really I only state science because it's the only thing that is used on many people and has objective measures. And normally is only to be used for experimentation which requires and open mind and a willing ness to through past ideas out the window for a bit and give a new thing the time needed to see if it could be a good thing

Anyways it's all good I understand the reactions from the vets on here

Lucky you, Im cursed with genetic lineage greek and irish, should be illegal for these two groups of people to spawn.
Like I was saying this thread along with a couple others like the GDA thread are actual threads that are talking about something besides damned gear, so the general subject matter has been refreshing.
Its good to see we have some members who want to focus on other areas other than 'how much gear should I take?' type subjects.

 

[Knight9]

Your kidding right? Muscle catabolism is not present with no glucose?
Mkkkayy- muscle catabolism is ALWAYS present and in the absence of glucose which is protein sparing its even MORE present.
Im sorry I can respect some of you guys science but its funny when I see plenty of people who eat the carbs burning body fat just fine, I see -for myself and people like myself absolutely no extra fat burning advantage here.
AND like I stated before with LOW carbs for a person my size and the GDAs my blood glucose is not going to stay elevated long enough or have enough of an insulin response to blunt any fat burning.
Its funny I have dieted down like this for a while and manage to lose fat like this easily. Problem for me is if I don't eat ENOUGH carbs.
You do it your way Ill do it mine but no amount of science in the world would EVER get me to do it that way.
Its muscle breakdown city and I have known a particular trainer who loves to do this to his athletes and loses everyone of them to other trainers who don't, and the athletes always excel under a system where carbs are doled out at specific times and denied at others and these times always coincide with training i.e. cardio or lifting.
But hey you guys wanna do the whole NO carbs, carbs are going to prevent fat loss then finally have some 6-8 hours later, do what ya gotta.
I tried that kinda diet ONCE, and I will never do it again.

Whats funny is we see this all the time with competitors they are low carbed or zero carbed too long and we give them carbs and let them eat for a while all of a sudden they start burning more fat and their metabolic rates go out of control-they'll be hungrier then when they were on low carbs but now they are bigger fuller and stronger.
Now obviously we have to lower them to do this but a pendulum like approach were you vacillate between both environments seems to be a better approach- but hey Im no guru, just a guy who is disagreeing and has NO science to back up his broscience lol.

You are making an awful lot of assumptions across the board. Who said carbs 6 to 8 hrs later? Skip them post cardio and then have them with the following meal. Many of the guys you think are eating carbs every meal and staying lean are already where they want to be...6% bf etc and have added them back in etc.

 

[Knight9]

This I know, but as you just pointed out skipping them will have a lag effect into the next day.
Im fully aware of the stored glycogen being from the day befores breakfast so skipping today's will come up short in the next 24 hours...no?
So pick your poison, exactly where and when do you want to come up short on glycogen reserves?
And it may not be exactly a ketogenic diet but is surely is using a similar methodology no carbs high fats...again...am I wrong on this?

My thing is at 260 and an intake of low 200's on some days for carbs, Im taking in so little I might as well have next to none, I just get them in during higher metabolic event times.
Again I don't have any super duper science theories here, just some trial and error.
Not knocking guys who want to skip post cardio carbs, it probably works for some people but all its going to do is make me hungry the rest of the day, and Im going to be like that with meals 2-5 anyways.
Those meals for me are low.
Like today, did cardio this morning fasted, took GDA before with one cup black coffee.
Came back did BCAA+glutamine - while cooking breakfast- ate eggwhites with grits, then oatmeal.
104 grams of carbs roughly.
The next 4 meals I get 66 grams of carbs divided evenly between them thats 15 and change per meal, at 260 thats like having no carbs, but its enough to maintain my BS for brain function through out the day.
Meal 6 will be vegetables and protein only, then Ill do my peps, 1 mg CJC+GH frag. Get on the bike and do 35 min of cardio.
Again, Ill come back have 50 gr whey protein, and 40 gram sweet potato powder.
The next meal will be protein and fat only.
Now thats for me, if I want to do more fat burring then I'll do the post cardio meal as whole foods, with very low carbs 20 gr.
But if fats coming off I see no need to deny myself the carbs when not only am I trying to lose body fat but Im also attempting to keep my muscle intact and minimize catabolism, for that you need some carbs, now finding the sweet spot for how much?
Well that takes some personal experimentation- as we mentioned earlier.

I didn't point that out...and no, yesterday's breakfast is not all of my glycogen today. You are making up some fuzzy facts...

 

[ajdos]

You are making an awful lot of assumptions across the board. Who said carbs 6 to 8 hrs later? Skip them post cardio and then have them with the following meal. Many of the guys you think are eating carbs every meal and staying lean are already where they want to be...6% bf etc and have added them back in etc.

You're right I did make a assumption, purposefully actually I was just using some hyperbole to make a point- it wasn't meant literally but I see that got lost in the context.
As for your last statement I alluded to that in one of my earlier posts I said you have to diet down, BUT, I did the diet (low carb) exactly as I outlined with 2 days of high carb per week.
I even showed my results.
Lets face facts nobody has the absolute right or wrong on this, you do it your way- if it works good for you - then awesome.
My only point is, and yes as Ryan said there is no science but through basic observation you see people do it other ways.
I am one of those people. Thats why I am so steadfast about what Im saying- Im not trying to defy you guys or be 'right' or make you guys 'wrong' Im just pointing out that these tactics with diet don't have a one size fits all.
And yes some of my nomenclature is off or not quite exact, it doesn't need to be.
Thats something I notice more and more is we deny basic observation sometimes because we can't back it up with a immediate scientific explanation or study to give it validity- but do we need to when the method yields results?
I mean its nice to understand the why and how but the important thing is the results IMO.
In a long winded manner thats all Im saying here.

 

[ajdos]

I didn't point that out...and no, yesterday's breakfast is not all of my glycogen today. You are making up some fuzzy facts...

Again, you are taking everything I say TOO literally. Read the above post.

I mean hey Kight you seem to have all the answers how about you get into an explanation of WHAT YOU DO.
Because Ill Im seeing is you picking at things other people say- you want to come me over about some generalizations I make fine but back it up with your own counterpoint is all Im saying.
You seem to be the yogi here in the thread, step up and teach us all something.

 

[Knight9]

You're right I did make a assumption, purposefully actually I was just using some hyperbole to make a point- it wasn't meant literally but I see that got lost in the context.
As for your last statement I alluded to that in one of my earlier posts I said you have to diet down, BUT, I did the diet (low carb) exactly as I outlined with 2 days of high carb per week.
I even showed my results.
Lets face facts nobody has the absolute right or wrong on this, you do it your way- if it works good for you - then awesome.
My only point is, and yes as Ryan said there is no science but through basic observation you see people do it other ways.
I am one of those people. Thats why I am so steadfast about what Im saying- Im not trying to defy you guys or be 'right' or make you guys 'wrong' Im just pointing out that these tactics with diet don't have a one size fits all.
And yes some of my nomenclature is off or not quite exact, it doesn't need to be.
Thats something I notice more and more is we deny basic observation sometimes because we can't back it up with a immediate scientific explanation or study to give it validity- but do we need to when the method yields results?
I mean its nice to understand the why and how but the important thing is the results IMO.
In a long winded manner thats all Im saying here.

I choose the path of least resistance in this case. I can burn fat all day long spiking my insulin with carbs or leucine and just end up doing MORE work or MORE drugs. I'm all about efficiency. Morning cardio with caffeine and or ephedrine maybe...GH perhaps...get the ffa uses for energy and roll with it for a while. The minute you eat those oats or whatever, you are halting the fat burning process you just revved up. Why not take the 2 extra hrs of fat burning til the next meal?

 

[ajdos]

I choose the path of least resistance in this case. I can burn fat all day long spiking my insulin with carbs or leucine and just end up doing MORE work or MORE drugs. I'm all about efficiency. Morning cardio with caffeine and or ephedrine maybe...GH perhaps...get the ffa uses for energy and roll with it for a while. The minute you eat those oats or whatever, you are halting the fat burning process you just revved up. Why not take the 2 extra hrs of fat burning til the next meal?

So let me ask you this, you are saying there is no need to actually re-feed the muscles after 6-8 hours of no glucose and 30-45 min fasted cardio?
You are telling me that in this environment that carb uptake won't be anti catabolic and will ruin the fat burning for 2 more hours?

How long do you think my BS will stay elevated after that meal, 2 hours? 3 hours, so what happens with all the other meals I eat that have not very much carb in them 15 per meal right now, you think that those meals don't have me back into some ketosis relatively easy?
I just don't think you are losing all that much fat burning, thats just my opinion, and its time to give myself some food by then Im hungry like that I eat because the next 8 hours won't have much until I either train or do another cardio session.
I don't have any anabolics and yet somehow have recomped 10 lbs and lost ~10% body fat, I don't believe I could have done that without carbs post cardio.
In my eyes that blade cuts 2 ways.

 

[Chode Logan]

Depends how far into diet you are. I ate carbs and protein post fasted cardio and got amazing results but eventually pulled carbs lower and lower from this meal as you get leaner. I have always had shit results doing the low carb high fat breakfast thing....I would honestly rather do just protein than protein and fat. I don't like fats during the day I just like em before bed so they keep me from waking up starving at 1am.


I did 50g protein from egg whites and a cup of oatmeal after cardio and still lost over 40lbs over 3 months. Towards the end of the 3 months it was only 1/3 cup oats tho.

 

[ryanbCXG]

Depends how far into diet you are. I ate carbs and protein post fasted cardio and got amazing results but eventually pulled carbs lower and lower from this meal as you get leaner. I have always had shit results doing the low carb high fat breakfast thing....I would honestly rather do just protein than protein and fat. I don't like fats during the day I just like em before bed so they keep me from waking up starving at 1am.


I did 50g protein from egg whites and a cup of oatmeal after cardio and still lost over 40lbs over 3 months. Towards the end of the 3 months it was only 1/3 cup oats tho.

I dont think anyone has indicated fasted cardio then food is not gonna work, more the thought is its most likely more effective hence why you pulled carbs later in the diet and it worked. Keep it around the workout and sleep use the first part of the day for a nice fat loss boost which you are ready for since you sleep and normally dont eat. Certainly doesnt mean this has to be a low carb diet. You can still get in a very large amount of carbs especially if you drink a lot before/during the workout

 

[Chode Logan]

I dont think anyone has indicated fasted cardio then food is not gonna work, more the thought is its most likely more effective hence why you pulled carbs later in the diet and it worked. Keep it around the workout and sleep use the first part of the day for a nice fat loss boost which you are ready for since you sleep and normally dont eat.

But I have done the same thing with a higher fat breakfast post cardio with zero carbs and got way shittier results then zero fat with protein and carbs.

My point was I would not (personally) add fats to that meal as fats seem to make the cardio less effective than carbs for me.

 

[ryanbCXG]

So let me ask you this, you are saying there is no need to actually re-feed the muscles after 6-8 hours of no glucose and 30-45 min fasted cardio?
You are telling me that in this environment that carb uptake won't be anti catabolic and will ruin the fat burning for 2 more hours?

How long do you think my BS will stay elevated after that meal, 2 hours? 3 hours, so what happens with all the other meals I eat that have not very much carb in them 15 per meal right now, you think that those meals don't have me back into some ketosis relatively easy?
I just don't think you are losing all that much fat burning, thats just my opinion, and its time to give myself some food by then Im hungry like that I eat because the next 8 hours won't have much until I either train or do another cardio session.
I don't have any anabolics and yet somehow have recomped 10 lbs and lost ~10% body fat, I don't believe I could have done that without carbs post cardio.
In my eyes that blade cuts 2 ways.

I am now curious what is the reasoning that you feel the post cardio carbs help with fat loss? Ive seen your results and youve done well

 

[ajdos]

I am now curious what is the reasoning that you feel the post cardio carbs help with fat loss? Ive seen your results and youve done well

Let me clarify something, the thing Im trying to do is both, maintain or build some lean tissue while losing body fat.

So Im not purely out for fat loss but that is the larger degree of the two when I drop carbs, just want to say that first get that straightened out- the skipping of carbs may be better for fat loss but I don't agree that its not catabolic to some degree enough for muscle loss to not occur.
Your fasted, you do cardio (which breaks down a small amount of muscle along with fat) and then you just eat protein, fat and no carbs?
Spike insulin with leucine, yeah I have heard all these before, but nothing works as well as carbs for anti catabolism -again my opinion, I mean do people grow more with higher carbs or lower carbs? its rhetorical with more obviously, so my whole angle has less to do with continued fat burning, my need for carbs is to break catabolism, cortisol is at its highest in the morning when I do cardio, cardio is going to jack that up a little too.
So I want carbs for that reason mainly and to get my first good fill out for the day. Because for me the next 5 meals are going to contain a grand total of 66 grams of carbs- thats what I get over a 10 hour work day- like today.
At 260 with 66 grams of carbs over that span of time Im going to get back to fat burning in there, thats the whole premise of a diet - being a little hungry all day long, at least what I was taught and its served me well.
That minuscule amount of glucose isn't going to keep BS high enough for long enough to get back to ketosis ( at least thats what I believe ).
Right now Im going back and forth I do weeks of higher carbs then throw back in 10 or so days of low carb, I actually spoke about this in the GDA thread as the OP.
What I observed is metabolic rate starts to decline after an extended amount of time on low carbs, this is the premise of using a 5 low 2 high or 4 low 3 high carb cycle.
That type of diet worked so well for me that I decided to apply it to offseason gaining, you eat carbs after a show and you gain the most amount of muscle all season while maintaining low body fat, this is all set up by the initial diet, Knight mentioned that I think.
You have to be low first.
Anyways eventually what happens from eating all the carbs? you lose sensitivity and start eventually smoothing out, so I said- why not restart the diet say for a shorter period of time since I am trying to GAIN.
So at the point I smooth out, and gain lets say 10 lbs ( I use the mirror as my guide) I go back into low carbs but now no rotation straight low carbs 10 days is the macro cycle Im using this time around.
I ate high carbs to begin this one and went up to 267 dropped back down now to 260 give or take h20 and all that, tomorrow is my last low day, Ill eat again with higher carbs (not crap) just more of the same foods and my insulin sensitivity will be such that I can eat high carbs for a period before smoothing out and repeating the process, I estimated ~10 days low ~17 days high, again this is all done by mirror- now- when you bring back the carbs one of the first things you notice is you are damned way hungrier metabolic rate really cranks up then the body is being fed and glucose surely sets this into motion.
In your scenario of not eating carbs you may be absolutely right, in fact I think you would burn more body fat, however I strongly believe you will lose some muscle as sacrifice to do so- I know this sounds all bro-telligence blah blah-but ask any competitor they will tell you this phenomena of higher metabolic rate with carbs is real, it just has to be used specifically, the pattern I even use on high carbs is the same first meal has the most, pre, intra, post lift carbs the next most all the other meals are low(er).
For me-with no AAS my mind set is very much geared towards muscle preservation during fat loss,and I would be a liar if I didn't give credit to the peptides I use accentuating what Im doing.
Thats as good as an explanation as I can give you man.
Its just a system I created from watching my body's reaction to post show gorging and realizing there is a mechanism there that can be manipulated.

 

[ajdos]

You are making an awful lot of assumptions across the board. Who said carbs 6 to 8 hrs later? Skip them post cardio and then have them with the following meal. Many of the guys you think are eating carbs every meal and staying lean are already where they want to be...6% bf etc and have added them back in etc.

Speaking of assumptions, how would you know something like that? Did you take a poll?

 

[G.I.Bro]

I choose the path of least resistance in this case. I can burn fat all day long spiking my insulin with carbs or leucine and just end up doing MORE work or MORE drugs. I'm all about efficiency. Morning cardio with caffeine and or ephedrine maybe...GH perhaps...get the ffa uses for energy and roll with it for a while. The minute you eat those oats or whatever, you are halting the fat burning process you just revved up. Why not take the 2 extra hrs of fat burning til the next meal?

Agree on the post cardio concept. Ride the gh peak out. Keep burning free fatty acids released during cardio at an optimal level with insulin kept quiet. The gh further enhances the FFA release. 2 hours after, have a cho/pro meal. Obviously this is if fat loss is a priority. This is basically what I was pointing out with regard to all these "bros" slamming insulinogenic BCAA prior to "fasted" cardio when your insulin is already in an optimal state. You're just spiking insulin and signaling for a reduction in lipolysis, not protecting muscle or warding off catabolism. It's counterproductive.

If in a growth/building phase, by all means, go ahead and spike insulin and have BCAA in your blood during training or cardio. But imo, it's not truly fasted cardio if your insulin is jacked up from BCAA. Fundamental flaw in 85% of members understanding from what I see posted on this forum often.

 

[ajdos]

Agree on the post cardio concept. Ride the gh peak out. Keep burning free fatty acids released during cardio at an optimal level with insulin kept quiet. The gh further enhances the FFA release. 2 hours after, have a cho/pro meal. Obviously this is if fat loss is a priority. This is basically what I was pointing out with regard to all these "bros" slamming insulinogenic BCAA prior to "fasted" cardio when your insulin is already in an optimal state. You're just spiking insulin and signaling for a reduction in lipolysis, not protecting muscle or warding off catabolism. It's counterproductive.

If in a growth/building phase, by all means, go ahead and spike insulin and have BCAA in your blood during training or cardio. But imo, it's not truly fasted cardio if your insulin is jacked up from BCAA. Fundamental flaw in 85% of members understanding from what I see posted on this forum often.

I agree with the whole nonsense of BCAA's during cardio, you are not stopping catabolism at that point, but you are blunting the fat burning you are after...yet many people chose to do it anyways.
For me its black coffee and water for fasted cardio. Ill get the BCAA's and food when Im done.

 

[Deako]

Depends how far into diet you are. I ate carbs and protein post fasted cardio and got amazing results but eventually pulled carbs lower and lower from this meal as you get leaner. I have always had shit results doing the low carb high fat breakfast thing....I would honestly rather do just protein than protein and fat. I don't like fats during the day I just like em before bed so they keep me from waking up starving at 1am.


I did 50g protein from egg whites and a cup of oatmeal after cardio and still lost over 40lbs over 3 months. Towards the end of the 3 months it was only 1/3 cup oats tho.

I agree... my best results came from pro + carbs... ezekiel bread or oats with egg whites!

 

[STTM]

I feel like I finally found out how to get skinny.. just by reading this thread!

 

[Bio-hazard]

Im glad this has been an informational thread with ALL types of what to dos and what you shouldn't be. I myself never knew bcaa's were spiking insulin during cardio. So ill drop those and see what happens.

Now, for myself once upon a time when I got lean, I did it very easily. FOR ME, I did 60min brisk walk on an incline on a treadmill, drinking bcaa's, and had 9 eggs 1 yolk and 1 cup oatmeal post cardio. Thats it. I got Shredded using nothing but test. So now, if I've been doing that YET getting results, but now switch to a "supposed" more effective method, like- no bcaa's, no carbs post workout till the second meal 2 hours later... it will be interesting to see how my body responds to that protocol over the other.

There are 2 things to this specific thread question...
1) What works the best. The best most effective fat burn protocol.
2) What works best for YOU. Bc number 1 above is a in-general guideline and may or may not work whats best for YOU and your body.

Carry on! Thank you guys!