Possible kidney issues, GFR 35

[Fluffy_XL]

I guess you refer to ppl with already existing kidney problems.
But even then ...ist it really hard on the kidneys? I mean sure it will change creatinine levels when tested but if it's actually harmful in this scenario could somebody please elaborate on the details/why?

add-on:

afaik creatine supplementation gets even scientifically tested on ppl in dialysis.

Yes it builds up in the kidneys but do 3-5g / workout day increase creatinin levels?

You guys think that c. means that much of extra stress on the kidneys? I really wonder not bc c. is that important but in order to understand the scenario.

Anyone maybe? Thanks in advance!

 

[MikeS]

Thank you so much Flex.
With all respect to Muscle96 and especially DC...who everyone knows is a wealth of significant knowledge,
I have consulted a Dr with decades of experience who is 70yo.
I asked him bluntly and simply, have you ever seen someone with my GFR and creatinine numbers recover signifintly?
He responded immediately, ABSOLUTELY! Especially, he said, when the patient has factors such as Meds, supps, diet that
can negatively effect the tests. So Im very hopeful.
That being said, I am aware of the possibilities, have benefited greatly from the posts from you bros, and the research Ive done myself.

 

[qbkilla]

Good replies for the op and the rest of us with

So, in the event of a low egfr, your suggestion is to request a 24hr/cystatin test?

I think someonelse mentioned that, its probably a good idea and maybe even a 24 hour urine test. Definatley whatever the nephrologist reccomends

 

[qbkilla]

Thank you so much Flex.
With all respect to Muscle96 and especially DC...who everyone knows is a wealth of significant knowledge,
I have consulted a Dr with decades of experience who is 70yo.
I asked him bluntly and simply, have you ever seen someone with my GFR and creatinine numbers recover signifintly?
He responded immediately, ABSOLUTELY! Especially, he said, when the patient has factors such as Meds, supps, diet that
can negatively effect the tests. So Im very hopeful.
That being said, I am aware of the possibilities, have benefited greatly from the posts from you bros, and the research Ive done myself.

One thing to keep in mind, the egfr is just your creatiine plugged into a formula. It's like them telling you "your 220lbs and your also 100kg". So its one reading expressed 2 different ways that has you concerned, not 2 different numbers

 

[KillerStack]

Anyone maybe? Thanks in advance!

Check examine.com

Anyone maybe? Thanks in advance!

Check examine.com maybe I seem to recall that they aren't sure if it's hard on the kidneys. But doctors recommend against creatine kind of because "just to be safe".
Maybe there is more current data, don't know. Just like they recommend against protein shakes. Why would protein in shakes be toxic yet food not? It's about dose, same protein in both, the docs assume the shakes will be overdosed by the patient. Of course in hospital settings patients who can't eat will be getting "shakes", unless they can't take any protein at the moment. If this is wrong on my part let me know, I'm not a doctor

 

[MyNameIsJeff]

Regarding the safety of creatine w.r.t. kidney function:

You have to distinguish between 1) those with healthy kidneys and 2) those with existing kidney disease.

1) If your kidneys are functioning properly, then creatine is safe. Creatine ingestion will lead to increased production of creatinine in the body. But your kidneys will be able to filter out the additional creatinine, so that serum creatinine levels do not increase too much. In order to limit the increase in creatinine levels following creatine supplementation, the kidneys' filtration rate actually has to go up (https://www.ergo-log.com/creatinekidney.html). There is now a large literature that shows that creatine supplementation in healthy individuals in safe. See e.g. https://www.ergo-log.com/creatine-and-protein-rich-diet-combination-not-dangerous-for-kidneys.html and https://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S0102-86502015000500313&script=sci_arttext.


2) If your kidneys are already damaged, however, then they cannot deal with the additional influx of creatinine by increasing filtration rates. As a result, serum creatinine levels increase substantially. Creatinine (as most substances) can have toxic effects if its concentration in the blood is too high.

I. Metabolic Toxicity of Excess Creatinine

In the presence of normal kidney function (and the absence of artificial ingestion), the level of serum creatinine generated is closely monitored via a series of physiological regulators. The normal amounts of the toxic waste creatinine, are kept very low. But, when creatinine is ingested from the conversion of creatine to creatinine (instantaneous conversion when activated with a fluid or ingested), concomitant metabolic abnormalities can be observed in-vitro, and in-vivo in animals and in humans. This ingestion of pure creatinine is toxic to humans and animals. Lis and Bijan (1970) observed a sedating or stupefying property of creatinine when it was injected into mice. Giovanetti (et al., 1969) demonstrated that dogs could be chronically intoxicated by injecting them with creatinine. In addition to their observations of the animal’s aberrant behavior, creatinine was also responsible for a significant decrease in the animal’s erythrocyte survival time. The addition of creatinine to normal human blood initiated a significant increase in spontaneous hemolysis. This same red cell lysing pattern was observed in normal human volunteers whom had ingested creatinine. Golini and Golini (2004) also observed a sedating effect when creatinine was given orally to mice. Mice were unable to run on wheels and showed the same stupefying property reported by Lis and Bijan (1970). Balestri’s research in 1970 gave us further evidence of this potential membrane-associated molecular blockade by showing that creatinine was able to effectively inhibit glucose utilization by erythrocytes.

II. Mutagenicity and Carcinogenicity of Creatinine

It has been postulated that exposure to dietary creatinine may play a very significant part in the initiation of cancer (most probably bowel and bladder cancer) in man. (Doll and Peto, 1981; Felton, et al., 1994). Creatinine’s ability to cause chromosomal damage and mutations in cultured cells has been confirmed, as has their carcinogenicity in mice and rats (Aeschbacher, 1991) and in one instance, in monkeys (Adamson, et al., Felton et al. 1994)

https://allamericanpharmaceutical.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/HowDangerousIsCreatine.pdf

So it's pretty simple. Creatine supplementation is safe as long as it does not increase creatinine levels too much. How much is too much is of course hard to tell. But for me the threshold would be when serum creatinine levels are higher than 10% over the upper limit. And it that's the case, then you should in any case check alternative measures of kidney function, such as Cystatin C and presence of proteinuria . But even if these alternative measures tell you that kidney function is fine, then I would still not want my serum creatinine elevated, given the direct toxic effects of the latter.

 

[MyNameIsJeff]

But for me the threshold would be when serum creatinine levels are higher than 10% over the upper limit.

Sounds weird. What I meant is "when serum creatinine levels are more than 10% above the upper limit of the reference range."

 

[KillerStack]

Regarding the safety of creatine w.r.t. kidney function:

You have to distinguish between 1) those with healthy kidneys and 2) those with existing kidney disease.

1) If your kidneys are functioning properly, then creatine is safe. Creatine ingestion will lead to increased production of creatinine in the body. But your kidneys will be able to filter out the additional creatinine, so that serum creatinine levels do not increase too much. In order to limit the increase in creatinine levels following creatine supplementation, the kidneys' filtration rate actually has to go up (https://www.ergo-log.com/creatinekidney.html). There is now a large literature that shows that creatine supplementation in healthy individuals in safe. See e.g. https://www.ergo-log.com/creatine-and-protein-rich-diet-combination-not-dangerous-for-kidneys.html and https://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S0102-86502015000500313&script=sci_arttext.


2) If your kidneys are already damaged, however, then they cannot deal with the additional influx of creatinine by increasing filtration rates. As a result, serum creatinine levels increase substantially. Creatinine (as most substances) can have toxic effects if its concentration in the blood is too high.

https://allamericanpharmaceutical.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/HowDangerousIsCreatine.pdf

So it's pretty simple. Creatine supplementation is safe as long as it does not increase creatinine levels too much. How much is too much is of course hard to tell. But for me the threshold would be when serum creatinine levels are higher than 10% over the upper limit. And it that's the case, then you should in any case check alternative measures of kidney function, such as Cystatin C and presence of proteinuria . But even if these alternative measures tell you that kidney function is fine, then I would still not want my serum creatinine elevated, given the direct toxic effects of the latter.

Thanks. I checked what examine had to say:

For people with kidney issues
In people whose kidneys don’t function optimally, supplemental creatine seems to be safe, too.

One case study found that a man’s single kidney suffered no harm from 20 g/day for 5 days followed by 5 g/day for 30 days.[21] An RCT in type 2 diabetics with various stages of kidney disease showed no significant decline in kidney function from 5 g/day for 12 weeks.[22] Two clinical trials saw no detriment in people with kidney disease.[23][24]


They go on to say that studies are few involving creatine so they advice caution and talking to your doctor. I think most doctors will say to drop any and all supps, especially creatine and protein shakes if kidney markers are off, just in case. Happened to me.

One question. What happens if someone fasts, does creatinine typically go up or down? I'd guess up but I don't know really.
I mean you can go into rhabdo and kidney failure when you break down too much muscle from intense excercise right? And prolonged fasting is catabolic?

 

[MyNameIsJeff]

Thanks. I checked what examine had to say:

For people with kidney issues
In people whose kidneys don’t function optimally, supplemental creatine seems to be safe, too.

One case study found that a man’s single kidney suffered no harm from 20 g/day for 5 days followed by 5 g/day for 30 days.[21] An RCT in type 2 diabetics with various stages of kidney disease showed no significant decline in kidney function from 5 g/day for 12 weeks.[22] Two clinical trials saw no detriment in people with kidney disease.[23][24]


They go on to say that studies are few involving creatine so they advice caution and talking to your doctor. I think most doctors will say to drop any and all supps, especially creatine and protein shakes if kidney markers are off, just in case. Happened to me.

One question. What happens if someone fasts, does creatinine typically go up or down? I'd guess up but I don't know really.
I mean you can go into rhabdo and kidney failure when you break down too much muscle from intense excercise right? And prolonged fasting is catabolic?

Interesting, thanks.

[21] and [22] : Kidney function in both studies was still decent, as evidenced by only "mildly decreased GFR". Consequently, creatinine levels were only "slightly increased (pre, 1.03 mg/dL; post, 1.27 mg/dL)". So not surprising that they did not find ill effects. Also, creatinine is thought to have toxic effects on other systems than the kidneys, which is not something the studies seem to have looked into. Lastly, the studies looked only at the short term effects.

[23] and [24]: Those patients were on dialysis, which filters out excess creatinine. Hence, I don't think the results can be applied to CKD patients that are not on dialysis yet.

 

[Fluffy_XL]

Jeff, thank you for your input.

I'm really not sure what to think about the studies injecting pure creatinine in animals. That's not closely the same as 3-5g each training day of creatine (not creatinine!).

I think if your creatinine figures are off that it's common sense not to supplement creatine.
But there are other kidney problems like excess protein in urin which can be the case being an existing problem but creatinine still fine -> what about creatine supplementation then?

I'm sure you're right about the dosing ...I mean regular supplementation is like 20 to max. 35g per week ...not per day.

By the way: academic medicine is not sure about high protein intake being detrimental to damaged kidneys.
In dialysis ppl need additional protein anyways so it for sure not negative per se. Question is if it actually stresses damaged kidneys further or not.

 

[qbkilla]

Anyone Using Astragalus For Kidney Health/Prevention

Did you ever switch from this to try telmisartan? I did yeah, I think lisinopril is better tbh.. plus stewie and gotgame recommend it

www.professionalmuscle.com

im sure most of you have seen this, im only 1 page in, but a good read in case anyone missed it. some guys have raised their egfr so hopefully the changes you make will get results. I plan do to some more research then get some vshoppe astralogus

 

[Fluffy_XL]

Has anyone here got experiences with kidney problems and very light color of urin?

I do have proteinuria and never had dark colored urin in my life. Though I noticed that since several weeks my urin is basically always light.
Normally thats associated with the amount of water you drink but with kidney issues it could mean that your kidneys arent able anymore to concentrate the urin. Which means that waste products wont get flush out and build up in the body -> intoxication.

Does someone know if that ultimately means dialysis? Are there other ways to find out more besides test figures like urea and so on?

 

[thethinker48]

Has anyone here got experiences with kidney problems and very light color of urin?

I do have proteinuria and never had dark colored urin in my life. Though I noticed that since several weeks my urin is basically always light.
Normally thats associated with the amount of water you drink but with kidney issues it could mean that your kidneys arent able anymore to concentrate the urin. Which means that waste products wont get flush out and build up in the body -> intoxication.

Does someone know if that ultimately means dialysis? Are there other ways to find out more besides test figures like urea and so on?

Take a step back man

Your labs will be more important than the color of your urine when determining kidney disease. It's good to see health concern in guys, but let's not board the hypochondria train

 

[Fluffy_XL]

Thanks man ...to be honest those health concerns affect all parts of my life already.
I know that BB can be done safely but I hate myself for some "experiments" with unnecessary potent steroids which caused all this.

Did a urin test with test stripes a few hours ago. Older than date-of-expiry but if they worked the only noticeable thing is that my urin is too acidic (like 6.1 or so).

Tomorrow full bloods and urin test under "bodybuilding conditions" ...same again end of August with low protein, TRT, no gym and no supps. Let's see...

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

MikeS thats Astragalus https://www.semanticscholar.org/pap...-Pan/eb2844f8a531f4c8d9575b6aa59b2cba5e04f50b

more https://www.sciencedirect.com/scien...DaC3SN9QBp1rNwPDFXyxuVgYSdcJio1dt8HD5BeaH6TSw

entering kidney failure https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18037104/

used astragalus to get himself back and the effects stayed after he stopped using it **broken link removed**

Efficacy and Safety of Traditional Chinese Medicine (Shenqi Particle) for Patients With Idiopathic Membranous Nephropathy: A Multicenter Randomized Controlled Clinical Trial

To compare the safety and efficacy of the traditional Chinese medicine Shenqi particle and standard therapy with prednisone and cyclophosphamide (cont…

www.sciencedirect.com

pycnogenol https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1074248409356063

Study shows pine bark naturally improves kidney function in patients with metabolic syndrome

A study published in the June 2010 issue of Panminerva Medica reveals Pycnogenol (pic-noj-en-all), an antioxidant plant extract from the bark of the French maritime pine tree, demonstrates kidney health benefits in metabolic syndrome patients, with effective blood pressure control, reduced blood...

www.eurekalert.org

Grape Seed Extract https://www.semanticscholar.org/pap...radi/a964ef9b1165a39a770479a8ef46ff80b8474ca4

Vaguer but in same realm https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11356-020-08210-8 and https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22677922/ and https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22257215/ and https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23314139/ and https://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/10.1139/apnm-2012-0416#.XyGyeG1KiUk (or easier read https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/02/130228124640.htm )

Cordyceps is somewhat controversial but is something to be looked into also https://europepmc.org/article/med/31049139

Protection of chronic renal failure by a polysaccharide from Cordyceps sinensis | Request PDF

Request PDF | Protection of chronic renal failure by a polysaccharide from Cordyceps sinensis | A water-soluble polysaccharide (CPS-2), isolated from the cultured Cordyceps sinensis, was obtained by hot-water extraction, anion-exchange and... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on...

www.researchgate.net

review **broken link removed**

 

[MikeS]

MikeS thats Astragalus https://www.semanticscholar.org/pap...-Pan/eb2844f8a531f4c8d9575b6aa59b2cba5e04f50b

more https://www.sciencedirect.com/scien...DaC3SN9QBp1rNwPDFXyxuVgYSdcJio1dt8HD5BeaH6TSw

entering kidney failure https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18037104/

used astragalus to get himself back and the effects stayed after he stopped using it **broken link removed**

Efficacy and Safety of Traditional Chinese Medicine (Shenqi Particle) for Patients With Idiopathic Membranous Nephropathy: A Multicenter Randomized Controlled Clinical Trial

To compare the safety and efficacy of the traditional Chinese medicine Shenqi particle and standard therapy with prednisone and cyclophosphamide (cont…

www.sciencedirect.com

pycnogenol https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1074248409356063

Study shows pine bark naturally improves kidney function in patients with metabolic syndrome

A study published in the June 2010 issue of Panminerva Medica reveals Pycnogenol (pic-noj-en-all), an antioxidant plant extract from the bark of the French maritime pine tree, demonstrates kidney health benefits in metabolic syndrome patients, with effective blood pressure control, reduced blood...

www.eurekalert.org

Grape Seed Extract https://www.semanticscholar.org/pap...radi/a964ef9b1165a39a770479a8ef46ff80b8474ca4

Vaguer but in same realm https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11356-020-08210-8 and https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22677922/ and https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22257215/ and https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23314139/ and https://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/10.1139/apnm-2012-0416#.XyGyeG1KiUk (or easier read https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/02/130228124640.htm )

Cordyceps is somewhat controversial but is something to be looked into also https://europepmc.org/article/med/31049139

Protection of chronic renal failure by a polysaccharide from Cordyceps sinensis | Request PDF

Request PDF | Protection of chronic renal failure by a polysaccharide from Cordyceps sinensis | A water-soluble polysaccharide (CPS-2), isolated from the cultured Cordyceps sinensis, was obtained by hot-water extraction, anion-exchange and... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on...

www.researchgate.net

review **broken link removed**

Thank you DC I appreciate it brother!
Already started the Astragalus 3g ED last week! Vit Shoppe brand! Thanks again!

 

[qbkilla]

It looks like reading these studies the stuff works. so why is it not used to treat kidneys? Does the country, and doctors, or whoever tells them what they can do, just not like to use herbs? is it due to big Pharma?

Are all countries like this? Are there any non-medications that doctors are allowed to recommend, or are they discouraged from doing so?

I will probably be getting some this week. Defiantly an eye opener.

 

[thethinker48]

It looks like reading these studies the stuff works. so why is it not used to treat kidneys? Does the country, and doctors, or whoever tells them what they can do, just not like to use herbs? is it due to big Pharma?

Are all countries like this? Are there any non-medications that doctors are allowed to recommend, or are they discouraged from doing so?

I will probably be getting some this week. Defiantly an eye opener.

Most nephrologists don't even know what astragalus is, they start recommending calcium binders like CA to patients in stage 4 or end stage renal failure, the concept of recovery isn't really even an option for many docs, especially in people with pretty compromised kidney function.

I'm not even sure how Dante figured out it's use in kidney compromised bodybuilders. If I was to go on examine and pull up herbal compounds with an affinity to improve x marker in the blood, it would be a science project to figure out where to start.

P.S- I don't exactly blame docs for this either, because very rarely do we see patients recovering from chronic kidney disease; most that have it; got it from uncontrolled diabetes and Htn, which is still poorly controlled after diagnosis, so decline continues to occur. Not the case with people concerned with their health like OP

 

[JETHRO TULL]

Thank you DC I appreciate it brother!
Already started the Astragalus 3g ED last week! Vit Shoppe brand! Thanks again!

Mike, I want everything to work out good for you, my friend. I am taking the astralgus as well. 4 in the morning and 4 at night. When Doggcrapp first posted info on kidneys, I got some immediately. I see in those studies the people were taking 15g day! Did I read that correctly? If so, I am not taking enough!

 

[JETHRO TULL]

Thank you DC I appreciate it brother!
Already started the Astragalus 3g ED last week! Vit Shoppe brand! Thanks again!

Mike, I want everything to work out good for you, my friend. I am taking the astralgus as well. 4 in the morning and 4 at night. When Doggcrapp first posted info on kidneys, I got some immediately. I see in those studies the people were taking 15g day! Did I read that correctly? If so, I am not taking enough!