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A Note On Research

OuchThatHurts

Moderator / Psy, Ret.
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It never ceases to amaze me the amount of times I see someone say, "Do you have any studies to back up your claim?" My own world is based heavily in science so I understand the question. The question is asked to solicit verification that what someone is telling you is true. It's somewhere between "Prove it!" and "Liar, liar, pants on fire!" Twenty years ago, the statement "Studies have proven that..." might have meant something. Today, I take most all with a grain of salt. I listen to anecdotal evidence almost as much as any scientific assay these days.

Don't worry. I'm not going to launch into some diatribe about pseudoscience and the recent merging (or perhaps confusion) of science and philosophy. I'm just seeking to clarify some things so that many of us can better understand what we are getting today with a "study".

There is very little pure research today - science purely for the sake of science. Research and studies cost money. In fact, studies cost big money. In all likelihood, a corporation or other entity heavily commissioned any study or article you read today. This research is subsidized with the intention of getting back a study (or scientific confirmation, or article) that, combined with their product or service, will pay dividends. What?!? Oh yes. And this is where the problem lies. In order for a research facility or even a lonely scientist to continue to receive funding by entities with the budget to afford such studies is to produce results consistent with what that particular entity is looking for in the conclusion. The truth is that the facility's (or the scientist's) future can sometimes depends on it. Add to the problem that the entire research industry has become so politicized that any scientist or facility that produces and/or publishes results inconsistent with what might be considered "politically correct", is banished to the fringe and discredited heavily by the community (e.g. the scientific community, the media, etc.).

Sounds crazy doesn't it? Nonetheless, it is very true. And it's happening all around us today. Can you imagine the bias created when you have a scientist working in a facility paid for by ABC Pharma to conduct studies and testing on a drug slated for production by ABC Pharma? The poor hapless scientist's salary, his lab coat, his spectrometer, his office, his toilet, his break room, his car are all paid for by ABC Pharma. And now ABC Pharma wants him to conduct a safety study on their latest, greatest money maker! Uh oh. I see a recall on the horizon. Hmm…

This is what happens when you combine politics, capitalism, and science. All three work together in tandem to ensure their mutual survival - completely without regard and exclusive of what may be in the best interest of the public. When I see Al Gore talking about climate change and the impending dangers with virtually no true scientific evidence (unbiased scientific evidence), it seems reminiscent of Trofim Lysenko with Stalin talking about vernalization. It is insanity and worse, it happens right in front of your eyes. I'm getting off topic but you get the idea.

So if someone comes at you frantically waving a study in front of your face, you are well within your rights (if history has been any primer) to be as skeptical as you like. Conversely, if someone approaches you with a product or service with no scientific study and only anecdotal evidence, you have every right to be just as skeptical. My point? My point is that no matter what the case, for your own sake and the sake of society as a whole, be extremely skeptical. Decide carefully what you spend your dollars on and judge for yourself and only listen to those you trust but listen more to your common sense. Stick with what has worked over time and if you want to take a chance on something new, then by all means, go ahead. But go ahead knowing full well that you are taking a risk in one form or another whether financial or health or whatever (or all of the above).

I've thrown enough quotes at you good people over the years so why break precedent now?

"When the search for truth is confused with political advocacy, the pursuit of knowledge is reduced to the quest for power." - Alston Chase

Enjoy your weekend.

OTH
 
Bumped for truth.
 
100% true. Iv worked within the supplement industry for a while and i dont think iv EVER ONCE seen a trial show that the product doesnt do what its supposed to or that anything negative. Negatives seem to be left out of the equasion all together, even if they are there.

So i agree 100%, if a company funds the study...it almost ALWAYS comes out exactly as they wanted it to. Iv even seen studies on certain products that produced some amazing results...but when a batch was tested at a later date...it didnt even really contain some of the ingredients meant to produce those results!!!!

MONEY TALKS
 
It never ceases to amaze me the amount of times I see someone say, "Do you have any studies to back up your claim?" My own world is based heavily in science so I understand the question. The question is asked to solicit verification that what someone is telling you is true. It's somewhere between "Prove it!" and "Liar, liar, pants on fire!" Twenty years ago, the statement "Studies have proven that..." might have meant something. Today, I take most all with a grain of salt. I listen to anecdotal evidence almost as much as any scientific assay these days.

Don't worry. I'm not going to launch into some diatribe about pseudoscience and the recent merging (or perhaps confusion) of science and philosophy. I'm just seeking to clarify some things so that many of us can better understand what we are getting today with a "study".

There is very little pure research today - science purely for the sake of science. Research and studies cost money. In fact, studies cost big money. In all likelihood, a corporation or other entity heavily commissioned any study or article you read today. This research is subsidized with the intention of getting back a study (or scientific confirmation, or article) that, combined with their product or service, will pay dividends. What?!? Oh yes. And this is where the problem lies. In order for a research facility or even a lonely scientist to continue to receive funding by entities with the budget to afford such studies is to produce results consistent with what that particular entity is looking for in the conclusion. The truth is that the facility's (or the scientist's) future can sometimes depends on it. Add to the problem that the entire research industry has become so politicized that any scientist or facility that produces and/or publishes results inconsistent with what might be considered "politically correct", is banished to the fringe and discredited heavily by the community (e.g. the scientific community, the media, etc.).

Sounds crazy doesn't it? Nonetheless, it is very true. And it's happening all around us today. Can you imagine the bias created when you have a scientist working in a facility paid for by ABC Pharma to conduct studies and testing on a drug slated for production by ABC Pharma? The poor hapless scientist's salary, his lab coat, his spectrometer, his office, his toilet, his break room, his car are all paid for by ABC Pharma. And now ABC Pharma wants him to conduct a safety study on their latest, greatest money maker! Uh oh. I see a recall on the horizon. Hmm…

This is what happens when you combine politics, capitalism, and science. All three work together in tandem to ensure their mutual survival - completely without regard and exclusive of what may be in the best interest of the public. When I see Al Gore talking about climate change and the impending dangers with virtually no true scientific evidence (unbiased scientific evidence), it seems reminiscent of Trofim Lysenko with Stalin talking about vernalization. It is insanity and worse, it happens right in front of your eyes. I'm getting off topic but you get the idea.

So if someone comes at you frantically waving a study in front of your face, you are well within your rights (if history has been any primer) to be as skeptical as you like. Conversely, if someone approaches you with a product or service with no scientific study and only anecdotal evidence, you have every right to be just as skeptical. My point? My point is that no matter what the case, for your own sake and the sake of society as a whole, be extremely skeptical. Decide carefully what you spend your dollars on and judge for yourself and only listen to those you trust but listen more to your common sense. Stick with what has worked over time and if you want to take a chance on something new, then by all means, go ahead. But go ahead knowing full well that you are taking a risk in one form or another whether financial or health or whatever (or all of the above).

I've thrown enough quotes at you good people over the years so why break precedent now?

"When the search for truth is confused with political advocacy, the pursuit of knowledge is reduced to the quest for power." - Alston Chase

Enjoy your weekend.

OTH
So true ,but the masses don't realize or understand this. Even the educated are given misinformation such as people in the medical field. People working in modern western conservative medicine are brainwashed what they have learn is they right way and only way, which is prescribing medication for everything.

Check out the book:

"Politics in Healing: The suppression and manipulation of American Medicine"
 
In my opinion..every single thing in today's society is about selling. It's about "What kind of car you drive?" and "What kind of shoes you wear"..."What classy neighborhood you live in?".."What cool restaurant you eat at", and it seems that people fail to realize that none of this has to do with who each and every one of us truly are! All these objects and things we accumulate in our lives..are just that! THINGS! It doesn' define who I really am as a person. And the crazy thing is society teaches society what was taught to them....so it's not really anyone's fault in particular.. because if that was the case you could trace it back to the beginning of civilization! That just seems to be the way things are. I think once I embrace this whole ego thing(which is just like walking around with a costume and a mask on) I can start to grow and see the world how it truly is. But, that's my opinion!
 
OTH QUOTE: Sounds crazy doesn't it? Nonetheless, it is very true. And it's happening all around us today. Can you imagine the bias created when you have a scientist working in a facility paid for by ABC Pharma to conduct studies and testing on a drug slated for production by ABC Pharma? The poor hapless scientist's salary, his lab coat, his spectrometer, his office, his toilet, his break room, his car are all paid for by ABC Pharma. And now ABC Pharma wants him to conduct a safety study on their latest, greatest money maker! Uh oh. I see a recall on the horizon. Hmm…



IMO soft money, lobbyist and inside stock trading drives the out come of some studies. My wife came back from the hair salon one day telling me to purchase Johnson@Johnson BIG! She ran into a friend that told her her husband said a new drug was about to get final opproval and to tell anyone she cares about to buy shares. Her husband is a CEO there. The picture I drew was a bunch of these suits cashing in threw indirect stock purchases. Think about how deep that pool could be.
 
Great post Ouch and so true. When we hear about a "study", we need to: 1) Consider the source
2) Take it with a grain of salt as they say.
 
The more I study this stuff the more I realize how true this really is...
Great Post OTH! (As always of course... :))
 
IMO soft money, lobbyist and inside stock trading drives the out come of some studies. My wife came back from the hair salon one day telling me to purchase Johnson@Johnson BIG! She ran into a friend that told her her husband said a new drug was about to get final opproval and to tell anyone she cares about to buy shares. Her husband is a CEO there. The picture I drew was a bunch of these suits cashing in threw indirect stock purchases. Think about how deep that pool could be.
What you're talking about there is what's commonly referred to as a 'pump and dump'. It happens all the time with the smaller firms like perhaps one of the biotechs. It would take some heavy activity to move a monster like J&J but a smaller biotech with little or no product line and net worth? Well, it's just much easier to buy a hopper full of cheap shares, smear some lipstick on the pig, and then sell off after the BS hits the tape and either wait for the next round or better yet, sell your long position and even sell your account short! Then settle your account when you can buy back your short position at next to nothing. I personally feel this kind of trading is rather unethical (but in most cases, perfectly legal). The other things you mentioned like the lobby (I assuming you are referring to the pharmaceutical lobby) is part of the problem but only indirectly as that's more political (not that science and politics aren't married because they certainly are). Soft money is purely political but still another way to buy an outcome (in this case, a political outcome).

What I was referring to earlier is really a problem with research and the voracity of modern scientific conclusions when the sponsor and beneficiary are one and the same.
 
The more I study this stuff the more I realize how true this really is...
Thanks everyone for the remarks.

I'm sitting here wondering if some of the people that are reading this thread are wondering, "Okay. But what does this have to do with bodybuilding?"

Do you think it affects you? Let's take a look!

We are a rather strange minority. We live strange lives and have goals much different than your average population. Our community is made up of jocks, scholars, pretty boys (and girls), and yes, even a few of you are, medically speaking, nuttier than squirrel turds. Let's face it, all sorts of people. Probably the most screwed up demographic anyone can imagine. Sort of like what I see with rock climbers (I'm a rock/mountain climber). It's just a strange bunch! It's it's own subculture like bodybuilding. As you've probably learned by now, government doesn't like subculture too much. I'm doubly screwed because I belong to two of them! Do you know how many times I've been chased off a great climbing spot because... well... for a hundred different reasons... I just have. Do you know a few months ago I got "buzzed" for dropping a dumbell too hard? While IN a gym! Or what was made to look like a gym but was really something else.

As a powerlifter, bodybuilder, athlete, fitness freak, or whatever else you may classify yourself as, have you asked yourself lately, "Who is FOR me?" Doesn't almost every group get support in some way? Ask yourself that question right now. Who out there is supporting your subculture? Your lifestyle? Are you even recognized at all? I'll tell you who. Nobody. Do you know why? Because everything in the system is against you right now. Government? Just turn on your television set or read a newspaper. Politically? You are despised. Possibly even in contempt of the law if you are currently supplementing your training with drugs. You might as well resign yourself to being screwed scientifically as well since science is almost completely politicized and with you being a felon and all, it will be a cold day in hell before you see a published article or study that shows that, used properly, testosterone or it's analogues may actually be healthy for you. Did I just say that?!? I was speaking off the record of course. All jokes aside, the whole paradigm would have to shift to a society of tolerance and additionally, you'd (we'd) have to gain some recognition. Scientifically, politically, and economically, we are a leper colony. Even though some of you make major contributions to society while at the same time, carry your fair share of the tax burden!

This is nothing to get angry about though since it would only serve to make things worse. It does affect you though.

It certainly is a strange feeling to me to live in a place dubbed 'the land of the free' and yet at the same time feel so oppressed. And to those of you abroad, don't think you're safe either. The long arm of the US has you in their reach too. But it's not just the US. It's become a global problem. Line up, take your meds, pay your taxes, and ask the bank to buy you a house and a car so you can at least get back and forth to work - unless you just live in the factory (like so many do today).

Has anyone considered funding an enormous global study to see how much governments are really helping their citizens these days?
 
Funny to read this today. Yesterday I saw a new ad on tv for Rexall Pharmacy's new "Prescription Reminder" service where they made the point that anyone who doesn't take their pills like they're told is a drug abuser.

We're all criminals now and if you realise it you're also a conspiracy theorist wack job, so Shut up, be happy!

Excellent posts OTH. :)
 
Funny to read this today. Yesterday I saw a new ad on tv for Rexall Pharmacy's new "Prescription Reminder" service where they made the point that anyone who doesn't take their pills like they're told is a drug abuser.

We're all criminals now and if you realise it you're also a conspiracy theorist wack job, so Shut up, be happy!

Excellent posts OTH. :)
LOL... I'm tending to agree with you these days. There are so many laws that it's can be almost impossible to be completely innocent at all times. Sometimes it seems it's as if we're all already guilty, just a matter of whether or not you give them a reason to come get you.

My girl and I were talking about this after hearing that light bulbs are now considered hazardous materials and you can be fined or worse for throwing them in the trash. We couldn't believe it so I went and grabbed the pack of fluorescent light bulbs (we use those little fluorescent bulbs because they last forever) and sure enough, right on the package it says to go to www . lamprecycle . org

So this brings up a lot of questions. If you are driving home from the grocery store with a car full of light bulbs are you transporting hazardous materials without a license? You can't throw them in the trash so where do you discard them?

If you break one in your house, do you have to call a hazmat team? After all they do contain mercury (Hg) - says so right on the box. The news showed talked about a lady paying three thousand dollars to have her house de-mercury-ified (or whatever they call it).

I suggest you all keep your passports renewed. That is, until they nullify them by saying that it's not safe for ordinary Americans to travel abroad so "for your own safety..." your passport must now be work-related or something.

I'm moving to Australia to live with oldfella!
 
It certainly is a strange feeling to me to live in a place dubbed 'the land of the free' and yet at the same time feel so oppressed.

Great posts all.

I'm a huge advocate of personal freedom. I've watched the legal inroads into American personal freedom occur in the last several years and it brings a torrent of emotions: anger, sadness, and, unfortunately, a tab bit of resignation. Uninformed patriotism and civic illiteracy are allowing this country to slip away from the ideas that America is supposed to stand for. Yes that saying is actually true, “freedom isn't free” - it requires effort by the citizens as a whole to be well informed in a diligent manner. Personally, I've found it very hard to become informed as the mainstream media seems to not report on certain things or not give the whole story. That's to be expected to some degree from any news outlet, but it is amazing how it seems almost coordinated. I think most people here would recognize the difficulty that Ron Paul had in breaking into the news. The Winter Soldier had no mention. Organizations such as The Real News on the internet are fighting corporation ownership and control of the media in order to bring news (with historical content!) to the masses. It is amazing how attitudes can change when facts are given to counter the lies / misrepresentations. I have experience this several times with girlfriends on the subject of certain substances. ;) The previously mentioned resignation comes from the fact that I feel tired and don’t know if I’ll ever see a well-informed citizenry (as a whole) in my lifetime. But I can't stop because I feel that it is integral to a healthy functioning society.

"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. " MLK
 
Couldnt agree more.

The origin of "studies' are very important. Medline and Pubmed should be a good source of information for an individual intrested in looking at and comparing studies. Those done by manufacturers arnt worth a thing 99% of the time.

Although studies can give a user an idea of how a specific compound works on an individual, in synergy or how it reacts when combined to other compounds, user experience is more important IMHO. Studies arnt always right and although there a starting point, their not the entire picture.
 
That's fine Ouch c'mon down, don't forget your passport!!!

AS we all know the Body Building supplement industry is steeped in science and numerous studies, all of which are funded exactly the way OTH has described. The can then quarantee the outcomes of these studies. This is why the supplement industry in general is so bastardised. All this research money poured into marketing od each companies products and all the studies to conclude that their's is the best available. Sometimes we just have to ignore the studies or lack of and bite the bullit and try them for ourselves. Dare I bring up Those dreded LBA's as an example? Well as far as I know from the numerous doubters and bashers out there there really have not been any scientific studies published by anyone about this specific product, yet myself and so many others from here and elsewhere use these in a big way. Hell we have our own study of this product right here by way of real world testing, not in a lab environment, but in the field where it counts. I care not about studies and glossy brochures, please just deliver a product that works, and the only study I require is my own personal experience with a product to know if it will deliver, And for me the evidence is in the results!
 
LOL... I'm tending to agree with you these days. There are so many laws that it's can be almost impossible to be completely innocent at all times. Sometimes it seems it's as if we're all already guilty, just a matter of whether or not you give them a reason to come get you.

My girl and I were talking about this after hearing that light bulbs are now considered hazardous materials and you can be fined or worse for throwing them in the trash. We couldn't believe it so I went and grabbed the pack of fluorescent light bulbs (we use those little fluorescent bulbs because they last forever) and sure enough, right on the package it says to go to www . lamprecycle . org

So this brings up a lot of questions. If you are driving home from the grocery store with a car full of light bulbs are you transporting hazardous materials without a license? You can't throw them in the trash so where do you discard them?

If you break one in your house, do you have to call a hazmat team? After all they do contain mercury (Hg) - says so right on the box. The news showed talked about a lady paying three thousand dollars to have her house de-mercury-ified (or whatever they call it).

I suggest you all keep your passports renewed. That is, until they nullify them by saying that it's not safe for ordinary Americans to travel abroad so "for your own safety..." your passport must now be work-related or something.

I'm moving to Australia to live with oldfella!

I am fairly new member to this board, but couldn't be more impressed by the level of maturity and the philosophy of a lot of members here. Most of the time the general population takes us body builders as a bunch of ditsy, brainless muscle heads that spend most of our time on front of mirrors. They couldn't be more wrong, we are some of the most informed people, we spend time following policies that shape up our society and also we keep up with the development of medicine, always looking for the next break through. Couldn't agree more with ouchithurts on the subject of studies, and how they can be manipulated to the advantage of whoever has the financial power, and how we feel so oppressed in the land of the free, hiding behind funny names and using all kinds of encryption in e-mails just because we want to build a little muscle and burn a little fat. We feel like criminals knowing that law enforcement is out to get us, though it is still hard to comprehend the reason why the feds spend the kind of money and manpower to try to put away a bunch of guys that work hard all day and then go to the gym a couple of hours and then go home, doesn't sound like we are braking the law, but that is just one man's opinion. God bless you all.
 
thread is old, i know... but is OTH around anymore? Its been a long time since ive seen him post
 
Yeah old thread but its a good one!
Everyone should read it!

This bullshit that goes on in the science is also in the food industry and everywhere else...


Like they say genitically modified food is safe to eat and they have studys to prove it! lol... its fucked up.
 
I'm happy that some of you folks are reading sage info that goes back a few years on this board. I frequently go way back and read things that were written years back because some of the info is just too good to let go and disappear in the ether of massive posting and information.

I don't presume to place myself in the sage category but I do put myself in the veteran role. Truthfully, I hate reading anything I wrote previously as I always tend to be critical and consider that I might have worded things differently or better. And the grammar, well, please just excuse if you will.

I was 5 years ago that this was originally posted and although as I previously mentioned, I would reword and fix some grammatical errors, I feel no differently today about this particular thread - only that there has been a minor degree of change with fads in that large and in charge is slowly becoming more vogue than gangly and Abercrombe.

My absence is noted. Details regarding my absence will be forthcoming in the near future.

Take care my friends,

OTH
 
I'm happy that some of you folks are reading sage info that goes back a few years on this board. I frequently go way back and read things that were written years back because some of the info is just too good to let go and disappear in the ether of massive posting and information.

I don't presume to place myself in the sage category but I do put myself in the veteran role. Truthfully, I hate reading anything I wrote previously as I always tend to be critical and consider that I might have worded things differently or better. And the grammar, well, please just excuse if you will.

I was 5 years ago that this was originally posted and although as I previously mentioned, I would reword and fix some grammatical errors, I feel no differently today about this particular thread - only that there has been a minor degree of change with fads in that large and in charge is slowly becoming more vogue than gangly and Abercrombe.

My absence is noted. Details regarding my absence will be forthcoming in the near future.

Take care my friends,

OTH

Hope things are well with you... Good to see your around. :)
 

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