A Solution to Tren- Understanding Histamine and how to regulate it

[slesh]

Would you mind explaining the reason for Hex vs Enan vs Ace? And how frequently you are dosing it (daily, bi weekly, etc..)?

I would love to hear your reasoning because I have been going down a small rabbit hole of old threads on here and some other places and the "bro-science"/annecdotal evidence is that most people for whatever reason see better results with Hex and less sides overall as well.

But from a science standpoint I dont see why (so far atleast from limited research) the ester would effect results and side effects to such a great degree that some are claiming.

It’s not the ester IMO - it’s the pinning frequency. Most guys like to use Ace because if they are having nasty sides they can either taper down or completely drop it and you won’t have the same tail as Enth…

 

[VakarianSK]

We are using Hex for the reason you said- less side effects and it’s more stable IMO in terms of levels. I’ve also found you can get away with less than the other esters.

Right now I pin the hex EOD. I don’t think it makes much difference if it was daily or every 3 days. EOD just works best for me because of how I have my pinning set up with all I’m currently running.

Do you happen to have any evidence or reasons why people seem to experience less sides and a stronger effect from Hex in particular compared to the other esters? Not that I don't belive you, I am just curios because so many seem to support that same result (less sides and stronger effect).

 

[VakarianSK]

It’s not the ester IMO - it’s the pinning frequency. Most guys like to use Ace because if they are having nasty sides they can either taper down or completely drop it and you won’t have the same tail as Enth…

Thats the only thing I can think of of why people report less sides and a greater effect. In theory I would think the same result would come from just using Tren Ace daily but I still read people claiming that Tren Hex is still stronger and has less sides even versus Tren Ace dosed daily.

 

[slesh]

Thats the only thing I can think of of why people report less sides and a greater effect. In theory I would think the same result would come from just using Tren Ace daily but I still read people claiming that Tren Hex is still stronger and has less sides even versus Tren Ace dosed daily.

I’ve used both over the years - not sure I can say one is “stronger” than the other. I think there are way too many variables in everyone’s protocol to make an apples to apples comparison. Like I always - at the end of the day it comes down to trial and error and personal preference. Would never flame you for asking this type of question - but ultimately we all gotta figure out what works for us and not compare to others…

 

[bbxtreme]

Do you happen to have any evidence or reasons why people seem to experience less sides and a stronger effect from Hex in particular compared to the other esters? Not that I don't belive you, I am just curios because so many seem to support that same result (less sides and stronger effect).

Fair question and for as much as I DO know, I’m the first to admit when I don’t know the answer to something as well.

I am not aware of any science in relation to why many have no issues with Hex over other esters.

I used Ace last year for my prep and had very little issues as well which I attribute to being in a deficit.

@Stewie @homonunculus or @DOGGCRAPP may have a better explanation as they are far smarter than me on these subjects.

At the end of the day I agree with @slesh - find what works best for you. Sometimes there isn’t a scientific answer in bodybuilding and other times bodybuilding contradicts science as most studies are done on “average” people.

 

[Stewie]

Fair question and for as much as I DO know, I’m the first to admit when I don’t know the answer to something as well.

I am not aware of any science in relation to why many have no issues with Hex over other esters.

I used Ace last year for my prep and had very little issues as well which I attribute to being in a deficit.

@Stewie @homonunculus or @DOGGCRAPP may have a better explanation as they are far smarter than me on these subjects.

At the end of the day I agree with @slesh - find what works best for you. Sometimes there isn’t a scientific answer in bodybuilding and other times bodybuilding contradicts science as most studies are done on “average” people.

I dunno if there's a point specific reason? Possibly some second messenger (non-genomic) system at play? I personally haven't used any Hex based esters. Sorry not much help.

 

[marssel]

Heart burn, GERD, insomnia, digestive issues, brain fog, respiratory issues, etc.

NIGHT SWEATS

 

[bbxtreme]

NIGHT SWEATS

This will take care of that for most guys. Add some DAO and an anti-histamine.

 

[marssel]

This will take care of that for most guys. Add some DAO and an anti-histamine.

U think hydroxyzine is too weak the VA hands it out like candy I’ve got like 10 bottles sealed and sitting around for you think the Benadryl is a better call

 

[bbxtreme]

U think hydroxyzine is too weak the VA hands it out like candy I’ve got like 10 bottles sealed and sitting around for you think the Benadryl is a better call

It’s a two-fold approach. You need an anti-histamine. Ketofin would be the best IMO and then DAO to metabolize excess histamine. The DAO you’ll feel the quickest.

 

[VakarianSK]

I’ve used both over the years - not sure I can say one is “stronger” than the other. I think there are way too many variables in everyone’s protocol to make an apples to apples comparison. Like I always - at the end of the day it comes down to trial and error and personal preference. Would never flame you for asking this type of question - but ultimately we all gotta figure out what works for us and not compare to others…

Fair question and for as much as I DO know, I’m the first to admit when I don’t know the answer to something as well.

I am not aware of any science in relation to why many have no issues with Hex over other esters.

I used Ace last year for my prep and had very little issues as well which I attribute to being in a deficit.

@Stewie @homonunculus or @DOGGCRAPP may have a better explanation as they are far smarter than me on these subjects.

At the end of the day I agree with @slesh - find what works best for you. Sometimes there isn’t a scientific answer in bodybuilding and other times bodybuilding contradicts science as most studies are done on “average” people.

I dunno if there's a point specific reason? Possibly some second messenger (non-genomic) system at play? I personally haven't used any Hex based esters. Sorry not much help.

Thanks all! I really enjoy all your responses and I agree sometimes it may just take trial and error.

 

[mimo]

So... Zyrtec and DAO is enough?

 

[bbxtreme]

So... Zyrtec and DAO is enough?

Yes. I like Ketofin better as it stabilizes mast cells, but Zyrtec will suffice.

 

[Mufasa123]

Apologies if this was covered (I didn't see it) but the only side I get from tren is that after a long 12+ weeks what seems similar to adrenal fatigue which I've attributed in the past to high constant cns stim from a very strong androgen over a long period of time. Stop for a bit and I feel better very quickly, raise and it's right back. Need to come off for a period to reset things and can last a long while again. Doesn't seem dosage dependent at least in the 300-600mg range. I'm getting plenty of quality sleep too.

Sleep is no issue as long as I bring dose up over a few weeks. No issue with sweats, carbs, I feel great but eventually this shows up. Not looking to run the doses or duration I used to but curious if anyone thinks this is histamine related or might be helped (maybe I tolerate it fine for a while but histamine gradually gets me). I'm assuming not but figured I'd ask.

 

[bbxtreme]

Apologies if this was covered (I didn't see it) but the only side I get from tren is that after a long 12+ weeks what seems similar to adrenal fatigue which I've attributed in the past to high constant cns stim from a very strong androgen over a long period of time. Stop for a bit and I feel better very quickly, raise and it's right back. Need to come off for a period to reset things and can last a long while again. Doesn't seem dosage dependent at least in the 300-600mg range. I'm getting plenty of quality sleep too.

Sleep is no issue as long as I bring dose up over a few weeks. No issue with sweats, carbs, I feel great but eventually this shows up. Not looking to run the doses or duration I used to but curious if anyone thinks this is histamine related or might be helped (maybe I tolerate it fine for a while but histamine gradually gets me). I'm assuming not but figured I'd ask.

Sounds more like an HPA-Axis/Cortisol issue to me personally. This is why I keep in Humanofort with all my cycles.

 

[homonunculus]

Fair question and for as much as I DO know, I’m the first to admit when I don’t know the answer to something as well.

I am not aware of any science in relation to why many have no issues with Hex over other esters.

I used Ace last year for my prep and had very little issues as well which I attribute to being in a deficit.

@Stewie @homonunculus or @DOGGCRAPP may have a better explanation as they are far smarter than me on these subjects.

At the end of the day I agree with @slesh - find what works best for you. Sometimes there isn’t a scientific answer in bodybuilding and other times bodybuilding contradicts science as most studies are done on “average” people.

I couldn't tell you either, but a few thing occur to me:

• Compare the other components of tren hex vs. acetate: Carrier oil, BA, BB contents. The carrier oil and perhaps even effects of the acetic acid vs. hexahydrobenzylcarbonic acid that is released could play a (small) role.

• The relative concentrations of tren of course and tren metabolites is going to be a function of the ester involved, i.e., how fast it's release from the depot and presented to the liver where various metabolites can be produced (whole lot of them: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7251174/) Spitballing here, but the relative serum metabolite concentration as a function of the rate of presenting the parent compound (tren) for metabolic breakdown could play a role (but I don't know if / which of these metabolites have relative activity that could bring this about.)

• Of course if you're off-season vs. dieting / in a deficit, the differenced in the other PEDs you're using could very well interact, in a multitude of ways. Also, competition among CYP enzymes among the AAS, as well as Phase II enzymes in the liver could / would be different depending on what other AAS are in the mix.

• Relative amount of tren in acetate vs. hex., of course at a given mg dose of the compound.

• Bunk stuff... LOL

In other words, to what extent the various components of a PED cocktail have desired vs. undesired effects will depend on what else is in the cocktail. Tren acetate and Tren hex have different pharmacokinetics b/c of the ester differences which can thus affect the overall pharmacodynamic effects in general, and in particular the various effects (both good and bad) of the other components of the cocktail.

(Again, totally spitballing here!)

-S

 

[Mufasa123]

Sounds more like an HPA-Axis/Cortisol issue to me personally. This is why I keep in Humanofort with all my cycles.

Makes sense. Seems unique to tren and very long runs (for me) of it. 12-16 weeks or more. I feel better within days (acetate) or a week (enanthate) of stopping. Might try Humanofort if I go long again.

 

[marssel]

It’s a two-fold approach. You need an anti-histamine. Ketofin would be the best IMO and then DAO to metabolize excess histamine. The DAO you’ll feel the quickest.

Cool I like ketofin I’ll have some sent over and any best place to get DAO? Thanks!

 

[bbxtreme]

Makes sense. Seems unique to tren and very long runs (for me) of it. 12-16 weeks or more. I feel better within days (acetate) or a week (enanthate) of stopping. Might try Humanofort if I go long again.

There’s actually some studies from the 70’s and 80’s on the subject. The second one is so old it’s up as a PDF. The third is from the 2000’s.

In layman’s terms when you take in androgens you can run the risk of high cortisol in the blood which down regulates the adrenals. When you come down or off dosages you have to reset that imbalance.

Effects of trenbolone acetate on adrenal function and hepatic enzyme activities in female rats - PubMed

The effects of the anabolic steroid trenbolone acetate (TBA) on adrenal function and hepatic enzyme activity have been studied in growing female rats. Treatment with TBA resulted in a decrease in the peak of plasma corticosterone concentration which occurred during the afternoon. The enzymes...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

https://www.sciencedirect.com/sdfe/pdf/download/eid/1-s2.0-S0362548676800180/first-page-pdf

The Effect of Anabolic Steroids on the Gastrointestinal... : Current Sports Medicine Reports

patient groups. It has been shown that high-dose anabolic steroids have an effect on lowering high-density lipoprotein, increasing low-density lipoprotein, and increasing the atherogenic-promoting apolipoprotein A. Steroid abuse can also be hepatotoxic, promoting disturbances such as biliary...

journals.lww.com

 

[bbxtreme]

Cool I like ketofin I’ll have some sent over and any best place to get DAO? Thanks!

You can order it off Amazon in bovine or vegan form. I use bovine but vegan works just as well. There’s links to both earlier in the thread.