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An illustration of a rational approach to cycle design (e.g., a short, minimally suppressive, recomp cycle for a photo shoot/film) [Author: Type-IIx]

juggy38

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Type-IIx

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I know it's anecdotal, but believe me when I say that hCG has been saving my ass for years. I didn't always have access to HMG but hCG has been saving my balls (hypogonadism literally means undersized balls). I believe it's why I've always been able to come off. Silly maybe.
It's not silly at all, hCG used appropriately maintains steroidogenesis and some spermatogenesis (albeit at below base-line levels) while on blast. The addition of hMG just brings up FSH to levels conducive to fertility.
 

Type-IIx

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@Type-IIx, does nandrolone exhibit any of the GR receptor actions that make trenbolone so effective as an anti-catabolic?

Or is it exclusively tren?
Good question bro.

All androgens as a class exert antiglucocorticoid effects in skeletal muscle rather than merely counteracting general muscle catabolic effects of glucocorticoids via anabolism.

How they differ is in their mechanisms for doing so. Tren is particularly tissue-selective, it rather uniquely (likely along with other trienes [Δ4,9,11 androgens]) modulates GRs by decreasing GR number. Nandrolone, likely analogously to Testosterone, suppresses expression of MuRF1 and atrogin-1 mRNA.
 

Type-IIx

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@juggy38 for relevant evidence that nandrolone does not decrease GR number in skeletal muscle see Lee, W.J., McClung, J., Hand, G.A., Carson, J.A. Overload-induced androgen receptor expression in the aged rat hindlimb receiving nandrolone decanoate. J Appl Physiol 2003; 94:1153 - 1161.
 

Reno911

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For those than cannot tolerate Tren (stomach, appetite issues) can Trest Ace be substituted? Or what compound would you recommend?
 

warlock

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Primo Ace oral is just prohibitively expensive for significant anabolism in men and is intolerably painful in its injectible form; and methenolone enathate given its duration of activity will chronically suppress HPG axis functioning. Proviron is a viable alternative, though with attenuated anabolism, it does serve the objective of recomp as a mild hardening/anti-adipogenic compound and the task by being almost entirely nonsupressive.

If proviron was used in place of masteron prop, what dose would you recommend?
 

warlock

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An illustration of a rational approach to an androgen (AAS) course
Author: Type-IIx

The individual is a healthy young man that derives an income from his physique (modeling, acting). His principal objective is recomp (↑FFM & ↓FM) for an upcoming photo shoot.

Considerations:
i. Absolute unwillingness to "blast & cruise," therefore
ii. Maximal maintenance of FFM (particularly, skeletal muscle) after the course has been completed
iii. Inaccessibility to or no availability for hCG & hMG (that serve the task of maintenance of HPG axis functioning [spermatogenesis & steroidogenesis, etc.])

Then,

Planning considerations include:
a. theoretical minimal suppression coupled with maximal anabolism (favorable risk/reward tradeoff with respect to HPG axis functioning) to preserve muscle size increases post-cessation
b. temporal placement (i.e., first) of potent & moderately suppressive androgens that are synergistic in combination (such that we can lower dose & attenuate HPG axis suppressive effects) & subsequent temporal placement (i.e., last) of less suppressive androgens that serve to taper net suppressive effects
c. durations of activity & time-course (pharmacokinetic and pharmacodynamic considerations) of HPG axis suppression (decrement to/withdrawal from LH, etc.) of the individual androgens (e.g., ester chain lengths; biological PK/PD data)

Compound selection is oriented around the overarching objective (recomp) & the task, here, attenuation of HPG axis suppression (to preserve muscle mass after cessation):

The optimal compounds here, then are:
Testosterone Propionate (TP)
Trenbolone Acetate (TBA; Tren)
Drostanolone Propionate (Mast P; Masteron)
Oxandrolone (Anavar)

Practical (Design & Implementation) Considerations:

I. A 6+2 design. The initial 6 weeks will be oriented towards maximal muscle anabolism, seeking to use doses & compounds that are synergistic (greater than additive; 1 + 1 > 2) and potent, with some suppressive effects certainly, but that can be ameliorated by temporal placement (i.e., first) and modest dosing considering durations of activity, PK/PD, clearance/elimination half-life, etc., and a subsequent temporal placement (i.e., last) of less suppressive compounds that serve as a sort of taper in net suppressive effects

Weeks 1 - 6: initial temporal placement (i.e., first) of potent short ester compounds that are synergistic in combination x 6 weeks (i.e., TBA & TP) but suppressive of HPG axis functioning

Weeks 7 - 8: subsequent temporal placement (i.e., last) of milder & less suppressive androgens x 2 weeks (drostanolone propionate & oxandrolone)
- a.m./waking oral ingestion (i.e., Anavar) preferred & with consideration of durations of activity/suppressive effects on LH, etc.

II. Chemistry:

Weeks 1 - 6:
- Testosterone Propionate (TP): androst-4-ene-3-one [e.g., 450 mg weekly, moderate (150 mg T, R, Su)]
- Trenbolone Acetate (Tren; TBA): triene (Δ4,9,11) [e.g., 150 mg weekly, moderate (50 mg T, R, Su)]

Weeks 7 - 8:
- Drostanolone Propionate (Mast P; Masteron): 5α-androstan-3-one [e.g., 150 mg weekly, low (75 mg R, Su)]
- Oxandrolone (Anavar): 5α-androstan-3-one [e.g., 25 mg T - Su, low-moderate (e.g., 150 mg weekly)], a.m./waking ingestion

Assumptions:
1. total exogenous androgen/AAS washout is not necessary to remove the stressors to HPG axis functioning and to exert a permissible effect on restoration of spermatogenesis & steroidogenesis
2. modest concentrations arising from such from doses & metabolism/excretion of short-chained esters (e.g., acetate, propionate), given the illustrative examples, are less than maximally suppressive
3. The reader understands the unique features of these compounds (i.e., TMT) and anti-adipogenic & lipolytic mechanisms, interactions between aromatizable & non-aromatizable androgens, contribution of estrogens/progestagenic androgens to HPG axis suppression, etc.

No test at all during weeks 7-8? What if one was on TRT for life and wanted to run this cycle?
 

juggy38

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@juggy38 for relevant evidence that nandrolone does not decrease GR number in skeletal muscle see Lee, W.J., McClung, J., Hand, G.A., Carson, J.A. Overload-induced androgen receptor expression in the aged rat hindlimb receiving nandrolone decanoate. J Appl Physiol 2003; 94:1153 - 1161.


Ahh thank you bud. That was the type of information I was digging for.
 

tren_plz

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If proviron was used in place of masteron prop, what dose would you recommend?

Zero comparison and a waste of time. Mast = Primo is a better route.

Prov is a waste.
 

BLang

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Zero comparison and a waste of time. Mast = Primo is a better route.

Prov is a waste.
Do you have a counterargument for TypeII's post where he explains why he'd opt for Proviron over Primo?
 

Type-IIx

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Do you have a counterargument for TypeII's post where he explains why he'd opt for Proviron over Primo?
The point of the thread (i.e., the task as precisely specified) just goes "WOOSH" over some peoples' heads, so they can make a hard man point about maximal anabolism. Of course I'd prefer Rimobolan over Proviron if the task were not mitigating suppression and maintenance of muscle mass after withdrawal. Some people idiotically transpose their own bullshit perspective ("I'm willing to blast and cruise and everyone should be like me") onto everything they read.
 

Type-IIx

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No test at all during weeks 7-8? What if one was on TRT for life and wanted to run this cycle?
This isn't intended as a cycle for TRT users (see the task of maintenance of HPG axis functioning [avoiding suppression]). It's laid out for the specific use case. I wouldn't bother with this in your position.
 

BLang

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I'm not going to hunt down some literature to prove my point. Anecdotally i've never seen someone get big/grow off Prov.

Primo...I have.
Nobody asked for literature, I was just curious if you'd even seen that post and/or had any kind of actual counterpoint besides "proviron sux bro primo is a better sub for mast". Apparently you don't.
 

pistonpump

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I like the different approach. After all we aren't all here for the same reasons and goals. Is this theoretical or is it going to be followed with updates?
 

tren_plz

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Nobody asked for literature, I was just curious if you'd even seen that post and/or had any kind of actual counterpoint besides "proviron sux bro primo is a better sub for mast". Apparently you don't.

And you do?

Lift, eat, sleep, repeat and stop worrying about drugs. You can shut me up real quick my posting a pic of you ripped above 225 /shrug
 

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