I see this whole discussion as two different camps. One is bodybuilders after absolute maximum gains, the other is casual weight lifters after getting leaner and building a some muscle to look good. One is pushing the envelope regardless of the work involved, the other is after results that can be gained with the least discomfort/difficulty. There is only ONE path to absolute maximum gains (per individual) as it is impossible for any two things to be absolutely equal. I'm not saying I know what this path is, but I'm saying I know it exists. There are hundreds of paths to recomp and look good.
Recovery processes starts soon after training, maybe even during training, but I can make you sure these processes does not endbup with your post workout meal. When you are recovering from hard training every macronutrient is essential not enough carbs=waste of protein because some of your protein will turn to glucose,this leaves less protein for building myscle new tissue. And you get very little from your prew carbs,it is more important what you ate day(night) before your workout. Everyone is different but if I would go no carbs day before my workouts, I would waste my workout next day, maybe it could be needed to get ultra shredded, but I can not imagine someone doing that just to stay lean
Remember, training creates a very catabolic state. Proper nutrition is essential to pulling the body OUT of this catabolic state as soon as possible after training stops. (for maximum anabolism) Yes you can still grow/lean without this.
It takes days of not eating before your body goes into a starvation state.
Cortisol does not completely stop protein synthesis.
Fasting for short periods of time (12 - 18 hours) is not even remotely close to the state your body is in during starvation mode.
Your body is always in a balance of anabolism/catabolism. Not eating for several hours does not magically stop all anabolism and cause your body to start eating away at skeletal muscle.
My body goes into a starvation state about 3-4 hours after a large meal. It all depends on my metabolism (also reflected in thyroid levels). When I have my metabolism really cranked up (naturally) I can go into a starvation state in 2 hours after a large meal.
By "starvation state" I just mean being in a negative nitrogen balance.
This is EXTREMELY important, and counters what you said directly:
The body is ALWAYS either building up, or breaking down. There is no in between. Of course you don't have to always be in building mode to make gains, but again, if you after absolute maximum gains, you have to pay attention to this. If you are after recomp and looking great, gaining some muscle, this point is irrelevant.
I actually believe I have put a little mass on. Not a lot, but enough that I have noticed. I definitely have not lost as much weight as I 'should' have given the change in body fat % over these past 12 - 14 weeks.
You have no control (as you admit) but I'm glad it's working for you. Remember your methods are relative to your goals. When you preach your methods to other people, remember their goals might be different.
You will not go catabolic simply because you're not consuming carbohydrate. Especially if you're using AAS, that pretty much seals the deal. Are you in a super-anabolic state? Meh, not as much because your insulin will be quiet. But you've already stated your goal is to recomp.
Going "catabolic" is a misnomer.
1) You really have to work hard to deplete all glycogen stores to the point where denovo glucogenesis has to occur. If you're refilling them pre, intra and post workout then you're sparing glycogen and then even saving some up. So the next day, and even the rest of that training day, you'll be just fine.
2) Going catabolic is just as much a caloric deprivation induced state, and doesn't have anything to do with one particular macro like carbs. I don't know why people have a hard time believing fat can be used for energy. Even if you're not in a ketogenic state, your body will burn fat for energy all the time, provided you don't have some horrible metabolic disease that affects your kreb's cycle. MCT oil is an even better choice. Next preworkout, use MCT or coconut milk instead of carbs, throw in some BCAA or whey isolate and watch how well your workout will go.
3) But if you do low carb, know your brain is going to play tricks on you. It's like trying to cut down on cigarettes versus just quitting and getting past the hump. So just let go of the anxiety around it and know you're stubborn little brain is gonna fuck with you for a while.
I really don't think we are talking about the same type of people or people with similar goals. I would be carb depleted in the morning if I didn't eat carbs for me last two meals. Having a sense of your "fuel level" or how much stored carbohydrate you have isn't that hard if you have done a lot of dieting. Glycogen stores are very limited and came become depleted VERY quickly if you have a high metabolism and a lot of mass.
I'm not arguing against ketosis at all. To me this whole discussion has nothing to do with ketosis, that is an entirely different subject. We are talking high carbs vs low carbs. Ketosis is a whole different animal.
You are correct, and I agree, catabolic has nothing to do with carb intake, it's all calorie based. But EVERYONE is going catabolic if they don't eat for extend periods of time. Once you run out of digesting food, glycogen stores become depleted, no protein is digesting. The body has ONE choice, release cortisol and begin metabolizing muscle into glucose. Of course eventually you get to ketosis and this isn't necessary, but that is another story, as ketosis isn't reached that quickly.
The real question is, are you comfortable with kidneys processing all that nitrogenous waste? Sure you could point to studies that show it's fine, but these are on people who have zero additional kidney stress, NOT bodybuilders.
The body converts protein to glucose because it wants to follow the path of least resistance. It's easier to convert protein into glucose than it is to start making ketones, which your body and brain can live on. But once the body makes the switch to ketones, then glucose is no longer essential.
Besides, "essential" is being used incorrectly in this conversation. When we refer to something being nutritionally essential, it simply means that the body must receive it from an outside source. Certain amino acids are essential because we cannot convert other aminos in those aminos. Certain fats are essential as well, because while the body can make triglycerides from glucose, they can't make omega-3's for instance. Essential simply means our body must get it from external food sources. Even if our body makes glucose from protein, while you might not think it is optimal that doesn't mean it makes carbohydrate essential. And as I've already said, even glucose is not essential when the body has switched over to ketones as its fuel source.
By this logic, essential amino acids are not "essential" either. You can always catabolize them from other tissues. And of course carbs are essential as ketones do not effectively pass the blood brain barrier.
Again, I don't think ketosis belongs in this discussion.
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