Average IGF-1 in male and female 25 year olds ; 280-340 ng/mL

[Black Beard]

This roughly equates to what we get around 3-5 IU daily. Personally, i don't "feel" HGH unless i'm using +3 IU daily (or equivalent dose split MWF), so this study lines up well with this observation.


Note that women need higher HGH levels to achieve the same IGF-1 since estradiol blocks IGF-1 production/HGH action in the liver and other cells.

Gender differences in growth hormone response to exercise before and after rhGH administration and the effect of rhGH on the hormone profile of fit normal adults - PubMed

<p>Baseline IGF-I levels showed no gender differences (42.3 women vs. 38.8 nmol/l men) but basal GH values were higher in women (9.9 vs. 1.8 mU/l, P < 0.001). The areas under the GH response curve, for Test 1 were similar in men and women. Peak GH values were higher in women than men (37.9 vs...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Virtuous]

While true, it’s important to consider age in this study.

IGF levels at 35, 45, 55, 65, etc drop steadily.

this is why we see the consistent theme of “gh is superfluous in your 20s unless you’re blasting it,” coupled with the “im 53 and 2-3iu per day is a game changer” comments.

 

[mike036]

Around 2 months ago I had my igf-1 level tested and it was 263. It was above the high end of normal. This is without GH and at the the time only using 20mg/day test Cyp, no AI

 

[Black Beard]

While true, it’s important to consider age in this study.

IGF levels at 35, 45, 55, 65, etc drop steadily.

this is why we see the consistent theme of “gh is superfluous in your 20s unless you’re blasting it,” coupled with the “im 53 and 2-3iu per day is a game changer” comments.

Yep, it takes lower dosages of exogenous HGH when you are older to hit higher IGF-1 numbers per studies.

 

[jcc80]

Yep, it takes lower dosages of exogenous HGH when you are older to hit higher IGF-1 numbers per studies.

That is what I was wondering. My wife is 45 and is on hrt due to a hysterectomy. We would be going low dose on gh for her, but I've been vacillating back and forth because of this topic. @TypeIIx had brought up this estradiol thing before and I payed attention.

 

[Black Beard]

That is what I was wondering. My wife is 45 and is on hrt due to a hysterectomy. We would be going low dose on gh for her, but I've been vacillating back and forth because of this topic. @TypeIIx had brought up this estradiol thing before and I payed attention.

If she's on estradiol at optimal/physiological dosages (Most women are underdosed on HRT) then she will need a higher HGH level to achieve the youthful level of IGF-1.


Generally you would titrate Estradiol dosage to hit 150-200 pg/mL for resolution of estradiol deficiency symptoms (hot flashes, vaginal dryness, libido/mood/weight gain, etc) and HGH dosage titrated to achieve an IGF-1 between 220-300 ng/mL.


Usually that's two estradiol patches at the same time of the 0.1 mg, 2-4 mg estradiol tablet (only if genetics allow; some women convert most oral E into Estrone), or 1-2 mg estradiol valerate or cypionate IM.


For HGH, you're looking at 1-4 IU SQ daily range, it varies a lot, especially depending on the HRT protocol, lifestyle and body composition of the patient.


Especially if she's on oral estradiol. Oral estradiol is extremely estrogenic in the liver due to first pass metabolism and most of our IGF-1 comes from the liver.

 

[jcc80]

Twice daily estradiol cream plus oral progesterone. Oral dhea and pregnenolone too. I really am just going to need to pay for a before and after igf-1 lab test.

I was hoping to be cheap on that, but there's no substitute.

 

[Black Beard]

Twice daily estradiol cream plus oral progesterone. Oral dhea and pregnenolone too. I really am just going to need to pay for a before and after igf-1 lab test.

I was hoping to be cheap on that, but there's no substitute.

What's her estradiol level? Getting labs before and after is a very good idea.

Creams are pretty poor at raising levels and you need to avoid the arms because if the needle for blood draw pricks skin with cream on it, you will get an artificially higher number in blood work.

 

[jcc80]

21 pg/ml as of a couple months ago. I THINK she was on this particular cream at the time.

 

[Black Beard]

21 pg/ml as of a couple months ago. I THINK she was on this particular cream at the time.

That's damn low, menopausal levels of estradiol. Most guys have higher E2 levels.

Most of the time, You won't see results from the creams, they are very poor HRT for most women.

 

[Hyper-T]

Body weight and body surface area greatly effect the dose needed. A tall 300lb man in his 20's doing compound lifts and eating a high protein diet will likely get nothing out of 3iu a day as it is simply replacing what he would make naturally.
A 5ft 6, 170lb 50 yr old may got a lot out of such a dose.

 

[qbkilla]

This roughly equates to what we get around 3-5 IU daily. Personally, i don't "feel" HGH unless i'm using +3 IU daily (or equivalent dose split MWF), so this study lines up well with this observation.


Note that women need higher HGH levels to achieve the same IGF-1 since estradiol blocks IGF-1 production/HGH action in the liver and other cells.

Gender differences in growth hormone response to exercise before and after rhGH administration and the effect of rhGH on the hormone profile of fit normal adults - PubMed

<p>Baseline IGF-I levels showed no gender differences (42.3 women vs. 38.8 nmol/l men) but basal GH values were higher in women (9.9 vs. 1.8 mU/l, P < 0.001). The areas under the GH response curve, for Test 1 were similar in men and women. Peak GH values were higher in women than men (37.9 vs...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Does estrogen block it in muscle cells? I have never heard this before...so raising estrogen will lower igf and lowering it will raise igf?

 

[nothuman]

Around 2 months ago I had my igf-1 level tested and it was 263. It was above the high end of normal. This is without GH and at the the time only using 20mg/day test Cyp, no AI

I also get some high IGF1 levels (low 300s a couple years ago when I was 35 yrs old) without HGH. Testosterone can raise IGF1 significantly. Now I am on 1iu HGH and haven't retested yet.

 

[nothuman]

Does estrogen block it in muscle cells? I have never heard this before...so raising estrogen will lower igf and lowering it will raise igf?

Not exactly what you asked but aromatase inhibitors can lower IGF1. I believe it's from the drug itself though and not the fact it is lowering estrogen.

 

[Black Beard]

Does estrogen block it in muscle cells? I have never heard this before...so raising estrogen will lower igf and lowering it will raise igf?

Possibly, but not relevant to a bodybuilder as far as i know. Estrogen is also important for optimal muscle/tendon/ligament function. We know trenbolone lowers serum IGF-1 as well, but we don't know what is happening inside the muscle cells or if there is an increase in IGF-1 bioactivity, etc. A lot of this stuff is still a mystery, but you can find out a lot with deep dive into research papers. There is a lot of gold nuggets of info in a lot of older papers from back in the 60s, 70s, 80s.


I try to keep it practical though, if it doesn't apply to me, patients, or AAS users in a way to help us in some way, it doesn't really interest me.

 

[Black Beard]

Possibly, but not relevant to a bodybuilder as far as i know. Estrogen is also important for optimal muscle/tendon/ligament function. We know trenbolone lowers serum IGF-1 as well, but we don't know what is happening inside the muscle cells or if there is an increase in IGF-1 bioactivity, etc. A lot of this stuff is still a mystery, but you can find out a lot with deep dive into research papers. There is a lot of gold nuggets of info in a lot of older papers from back in the 60s, 70s, 80s.


I try to keep it practical though, if it doesn't apply to me, patients, or AAS users in a way to help us in some way, it doesn't really interest me.

@nothuman Yeah, i've seen mixed data on the AI's both lowering and increasing IGF-1. We gotta look at the methodology/subjects in the research to know what is going on and why the difference.

 

[Doitagain]

We know trenbolone lowers serum IGF-1 as well, but we don't know what is happening inside the muscle cells or if there is an increase in IGF-1 bioactivity, etc. A lot of this stuff is still a mystery

It has actually been proven that Trenbolone administration results in an increased expression of IGF1 in the skeletal muscle.

 

[Black Beard]

It has actually been proven that Trenbolone administration results in an increased expression of IGF1 in the skeletal muscle.

I've seen it in the bovine/cow studies, but sometimes it doesn't apply to humans. It's plausible that it's the same in humans though.

 

[mike036]

I also get some high IGF1 levels (low 300s a couple years ago when I was 35 yrs old) without HGH. Testosterone can raise IGF1 significantly. Now I am on 1iu HGH and haven't retested yet.

I’m 53 and I made a mistake, I was using 30mg/day test Cyp at the time of the test, not 20mg