• All new members please introduce your self here and welcome to the board:
    http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259
Buy Needles And Syringes With No Prescription
M4B Store Banner
ddd
Riptropin Store banner
Generation X Bodybuilding Forum
Buy Needles And Syringes With No Prescription
Buy Needles And Syringes With No Prescription
Mysupps Store Banner
IP Gear Store Banner
Anabolic Hormones Store Banner
Ganabol Store Banner
Spend $100 and get bonus needles free at sterile syringes
Professional Muscle Store open now
LandmarkChem Email Banner
Medtech Store Banner
Bruce Labs Store banner
advertise on professional muscle millions of hits per month
Professional Muscle Store open now
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store

Bizzare estrogen problems

Thebigone

New member
Kilo Klub Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2009
Messages
3,621
Bizzare estrogen problems PART 2 NEW TEST!!!!!!!!

So about a year ago on 500mg test with 12.5mg aromasin my estrogen was around 26(range 7-42.6) So a few month ago i decided to get another test done. Still on 500mg test and using the same brand. Also used the same brand of aromasin at same dose and results come back at 49. So I freak out and switch brands of aromasin, keep the dose at 25mg wait 2weeks and get retested. Again same thing, estrogen is at 49. so then i switch to arimidex pharmacy grade at 1mg ED and just got results back. STILL HIGH at 42.9 They improved from 49 to 42 but for only 500mg test i would think 1mg of adex would totally wipe out estrogen. I dont understand how a tad over a year ago at the same dose my estrogen is half of what it is now and im also 10x leaner than back then. Only thing is ive stayed on 500mg test for a good year now when normally i'll just cruise at 200mg or so. How is this possible? What now, add more adex like 1.5mg ED. Seems like an aweful lot to combat a measly 500mg test.

P.S. This is not a beginners ? so i'd apprecitate it if it wasnt moved. Ive been here a long time and this thread isnt your typical estrogen thread, its a very bizzare issue and i'd really appreciate some feedback. Thank you.
 
Last edited:

deceiver

New member
Registered
Joined
Jan 12, 2011
Messages
212
How long were you ON when you've done first test? I find it pretty unusual that aromasin at the same dose out of the sudden stopped working as it is irreversible aromatase inhibitor. My theories are:

1. Aromasin was fake in the first place and might be some AI just cheaper.
2. You weren't long enough ON before the first test for the estrogen to build up.
3. There is some mechanism I am not aware of
 

Thebigone

New member
Kilo Klub Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2009
Messages
3,621
I was on that dose of test at least 4months or so before i got the 1st test. Actually before that i was on a cycle of 750mg mg test and using 12.5 aromasin and estro was around 52. The aromasin was from reseachstop and the 2nd aromasin i used was the raw powder that i made into a solution myself, so i know the aromasin was legit b/c i got the exact same results and it came from 2 totally different suppliers.
 

Ehren

Active member
Kilo Klub Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 3, 2008
Messages
2,784
Wow...that's not good news!

I dunno for sure, but do have a couple questions/thoughts.

At that level of Estrogen, are you getting sides like gyno, or problems with sexual function, acne, etc.?

Are you taking any Nolva or Clomid? Or HcG?

I ask because HcG increases aromatization more than a little for some people. And I'm not sure, but do synthetic estrogen analogues show up as Estrogen on Tests?

I was just thinking of things that would not be affected by an AI, that would show up as estrogen, but not include the sides...just guessing...

I'd love to hear more on this.
 

Kaladryn

Featured Member / Kilo Klub
Featured Member
Kilo Klub Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 28, 2009
Messages
5,355
So about a year ago on 500mg test with 12.5mg aromasin my estrogen was around 26(range 7-42.6) So a few month ago i decided to get another test done. Still on 500mg test and using the same brand. Also used the same brand of aromasin at same dose and results come back at 49. So I freak out and switch brands of aromasin, keep the dose at 25mg wait 2weeks and get retested. Again same thing, estrogen is at 49. so then i switch to arimidex pharmacy grade at 1mg ED and just got results back. STILL HIGH at 42.9 They improved from 49 to 42 but for only 500mg test i would think 1mg of adex would totally wipe out estrogen. I dont understand how a tad over a year ago at the same dose my estrogen is half of what it is now and im also 10x leaner than back then. Only thing is ive stayed on 500mg test for a good year now when normally i'll just cruise at 200mg or so. How is this possible? What now, add more adex like 1.5mg ED. Seems like an aweful lot to combat a measly 500mg test.

P.S. This is not a beginners ? so i'd apprecitate it if it wasnt moved. Ive been here a long time and this thread isnt your typical estrogen thread, its a very bizzare issue and i'd really appreciate some feedback. Thank you.
Your E2 test results are right on the money, about a 50 estradiol level is exactly what I would expect for 500mg/week and 12.5mg aromasin.

On 1000mg/week of test (too high of a dose for me btw) and 25mg ED of aromasin(US pharm), my E2 level was just over 100. I switched to 2.5mg ED of Letro(US pharm) and had almost the extact same E2 level.

This isn't very talked about, but it IS true: There is competitive inhibition between estradiol and testosterone, this is because of receptor co-regulators. That is why a 50 E2 level isn't going to give you sides when you have that much test in you, just like I didn't get sides from a 100 level because of the test level.

Go back to the aromasin, adex will mess up your lipids, letro will destroy your sex drive.
 

Thebigone

New member
Kilo Klub Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2009
Messages
3,621
Wow...that's not good news!

I dunno for sure, but do have a couple questions/thoughts.

At that level of Estrogen, are you getting sides like gyno, or problems with sexual function, acne, etc.?

Are you taking any Nolva or Clomid? Or HcG?

I ask because HcG increases aromatization more than a little for some people. And I'm not sure, but do synthetic estrogen analogues show up as Estrogen on Tests?

I was just thinking of things that would not be affected by an AI, that would show up as estrogen, but not include the sides...just guessing...

I'd love to hear more on this.
Im gyno prone yet i have no gyno symptoms or sexual fuction at all. Im also not even watery and still pretty lean. As for hcg yes i use 500iu 2x per week but have been using that since 2005 with hrt and estro has never been an issue in the past.
 

Thebigone

New member
Kilo Klub Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2009
Messages
3,621
Your E2 test results are right on the money, about a 50 estradiol level is exactly what I would expect for 500mg/week and 12.5mg aromasin.

On 1000mg/week of test (too high of a dose for me btw) and 25mg ED of aromasin(US pharm), my E2 level was just over 100. I switched to 2.5mg ED of Letro(US pharm) and had almost the extact same E2 level.

This isn't very talked about, but it IS true: There is competitive inhibition between estradiol and testosterone, this is because of receptor co-regulators. That is why a 50 E2 level isn't going to give you sides when you have that much test in you, just like I didn't get sides from a 100 level because of the test level.

Go back to the aromasin, adex will mess up your lipids, letro will destroy your sex drive.
But i was using 25mg aromasin not 12.5mg. re-read my post you will see what im talking about. I actually switched to adex due to a study showing adex actually has less impact on lipids that aromasin does. I'll try and post it up.
 

deceiver

New member
Registered
Joined
Jan 12, 2011
Messages
212
Adex is reversible inhibitor so estrogen level will build up. Worst choice in your case where it arleady builds up on aromasin.

I think you had adex instead of exemestane. Can't really tell whether it makes sense or not becouse I have no idea what are powder's costs.
 

Kaladryn

Featured Member / Kilo Klub
Featured Member
Kilo Klub Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 28, 2009
Messages
5,355
But i was using 25mg aromasin not 12.5mg. re-read my post you will see what im talking about. I actually switched to adex due to a study showing adex actually has less impact on lipids that aromasin does. I'll try and post it up.
Your post actually said that 2nd time you tested high on e2 you were at the same dose, 12.5mg.

So about a year ago on 500mg test with 12.5mg aromasin my estrogen was around 26(range 7-42.6) So a few month ago i decided to get another test done. Still on 500mg test and using the same brand. Also used the same brand of aromasin at same dose and results come back at 49.
But regardless, 25mg isn't going to double the effect over 12.5mg, you might see 10-20% more effect but that's it. AIs only kill E2 in post menopausal women, they have a MUCH lower effect in men. They also have a much shorter halflife in men, aromasin is only a 9 hour halflife in men.

Pharmacokinetics and Dose Finding of a Potent Aromatase Inhibitor, Aromasin (Exemestane), in Young Males -- Mauras et al. 88 (12): 5951 -- Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism

Exemestane suppressed plasma estradiol comparably with either dose [25 mg, 38% (P 0.002); 50 mg, 32% (P 0.008)]
A 50 e2 level is totally normal and nothing to worry about on 500mg of test.
 

Thebigone

New member
Kilo Klub Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2009
Messages
3,621
Yah i was thinking 500mg test would put my total test in the 3000's so im presuming have estro in the high end of the range would be ok, but i think im going to stick with 1mg Adex and im going to also add 12.5mg aromasin and see how i feel/look after a few weeks. maybe i'll get another retest as well. I also just realized i was on 400mg test when my estro was at 26 on 12.5mg aromasin not 500mg test so that probably makes a diff. And the brand im using is the same but the source told me he started overdosing a tad so its probably closer to 600mg im using.
 

Thebigone

New member
Kilo Klub Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2009
Messages
3,621
Also here is the post and chart of a very smart bro on another board i know. it shows adex is not harmful on lipids like everyone thinks and is actually better than aromasin.

here was a huge study performed on the third gen AIs. It was called the (L)etrozole, (E)xemestane, (A)nastrozole (P)harmacological Study or LEAP Study, and compiled vast amounts of data on all these AIs. I wont ramble on too much and will list the lipid parameter results.

Now, the differences between these AIs impact on Lipids is surprisingly considered "clinically" insignificant and all 3 AIs are considered to be safe with this respect. The variations in Lipid parameters are not really all that grave in this comparison but the differences are still something to note.

However, regardless of the general benign clinical assessments, I still see a statistical significance in other parameters which means quite a bit to myself, esp the negative impact Exemestane has on LDL/HDL ratio and ApoB/ApoA1. Exemestane is shown to lower total Cholesterol slightly in this study but the impact on LDL/HDL is something that concerns me personally.

My HDL is so low normally that I do not like this idea even if the drop is not grave. Letrozole, btw, has the worst impact on Triglycerides, while Anaztrozole (Adex) appears to be the most rounded, with insignificant numbers throughout the whole Lipid parameters. It appears to have the most benign effect on skewing lipids, which is not the typical info passed around the internet.

Now, this study is done on Women which measured parameters for 12 and 24 weeks, however, similar trends were found in another study where Exemestane (Aromasin) was given to young males. I say "trends", because the Male study duration of 10 days was not long enough in my opinion to clearly elucidate greater changes.

Anyhow, here is the study graph of Lipid Parameters between L,E,A

I hilighted what I consider worthy to note between the 3 AIs: RED/neg and GREEN/pos
 

Attachments

brutale

New member
Registered
Joined
Sep 8, 2010
Messages
674
Your post actually said that 2nd time you tested high on e2 you were at the same dose, 12.5mg.



But regardless, 25mg isn't going to double the effect over 12.5mg, you might see 10-20% more effect but that's it. AIs only kill E2 in post menopausal women, they have a MUCH lower effect in men. They also have a much shorter halflife in men, aromasin is only a 9 hour halflife in men.

Pharmacokinetics and Dose Finding of a Potent Aromatase Inhibitor, Aromasin (Exemestane), in Young Males -- Mauras et al. 88 (12): 5951 -- Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism



A 50 e2 level is totally normal and nothing to worry about on 500mg of test.
Kaladryn's comments are spot on. It is important btw not to rely on data from post-menopausal women. None of these AIs wipe out estrogen in men. The E2 reduction in men at full doses ranges from 25-60%.

50 e2 is fine on the test. (I like it somewhat lower but that's just my personal preference).

Btw some of the effects of AIs are not simple functions of E2. Recently, I've felt some libido reduction from low-dose letro, even though my E2 is 20, same as under aromasin.
 

Bullman77

Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 3, 2011
Messages
955
Very awesome read. Thanks
 

Thebigone

New member
Kilo Klub Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2009
Messages
3,621
So if the range for men is 0-49 why would 0 even be an option. What man naturally has 0 estro. Or even 10 for that matter. ive never seen a natural male's estro test but Estradial range is 0-49 so i would think being on the high end isnt optimal. But at the same time if your testosterone is 10x what is normal maybe the ratio makes more sense having higher e2 and it is normal. I would just think optimal would be in the 10-30range.
 

brutale

New member
Registered
Joined
Sep 8, 2010
Messages
674
So if the range for men is 0-49 why would 0 even be an option. What man naturally has 0 estro. Or even 10 for that matter. ive never seen a natural male's estro test but Estradial range is 0-49 so i would think being on the high end isnt optimal. But at the same time if your testosterone is 10x what is normal maybe the ratio makes more sense having higher e2 and it is normal. I would just think optimal would be in the 10-30range.
Optimal is generally put around 20, with total test around 800. But many of us run supra-physiological levels of test (I like staying around 1300 as a baseline). What matters is not only the level of estrogen but the ratio of androgens to estrogens. Higher test levels may justify higher optimal E2. There isn't, to be clear, much research on manipulating these levels and ratios in healthy men.

Btw, 0 is not a normal reading of E2. Take a look at research papers in pubmed on estrogen levels in men. Numbers below 10 are rare. To get to the 10-12 area usually requires 2.5mg of letro daily (with no supplemental test).
 

ManoftheWorld

New member
Kilo Klub Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2011
Messages
1,633
letro will destroy your sex drive.
Fuck ya, it will. Definitely effective, but I doubt I'll use again cause of this effect. Unless I have gyno from hell then i'd fire it up but sparingly..
 

bambambigalo

Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 24, 2009
Messages
167
Might be a noob question, but if you arent holding water, no gyno and still have ur mojo, why are you so worried about a little elevated estro level? Arent we supposed to judge how we look by the mirror?
 

Thebigone

New member
Kilo Klub Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2009
Messages
3,621
Might be a noob question, but if you arent holding water, no gyno and still have ur mojo, why are you so worried about a little elevated estro level? Arent we supposed to judge how we look by the mirror?
Well still holding water, but nearly what i thought i would with higher estro. I'd like to see how my body feels and looks with estro being on the lower end and then assess if i want to keep it low. Plus, higher estrogen is linked to many health risks.
 

Kaladryn

Featured Member / Kilo Klub
Featured Member
Kilo Klub Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 28, 2009
Messages
5,355
So if the range for men is 0-49 why would 0 even be an option. What man naturally has 0 estro. Or even 10 for that matter. ive never seen a natural male's estro test but Estradial range is 0-49 so i would think being on the high end isnt optimal. But at the same time if your testosterone is 10x what is normal maybe the ratio makes more sense having higher e2 and it is normal. I would just think optimal would be in the 10-30range.
People get a 0 reading because the test isn't sensitive enough to detect the E2, there is a special higher sensitivity test that can ordered if levels are ultra low.
 

cooper250

Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 22, 2007
Messages
170
man im on trt and havent cycled much last few months but my estradiol is 97pg/ml not good what kind of effect does this have?starting some ari right away but normaly dont run cause i geneticly have a low 31mg/dl of hdl what would you guys suggest.nolva or aroma?thx
 

Staff online

  • LATS
    Moderator / FOUNDING Member / NPC Judge

Forum statistics

Total page views
499,999,374
Threads
123,008
Messages
2,333,359
Members
154,881
Latest member
Tungexplorer
Top