Bodybuilding Secrecy good or bad?

thethinker48 · Oct 18, 2021

Explorerspl said:
That cycle wouldn't even get you a pro card in the past 30 years much less have you on the Olympia stage

It can if you are meant to do this

lookslikesausage · Oct 18, 2021

KillerStack said:
I don't think legality has much at all to do with why most pros aren't forthcoming about this stuff. It's because they are insecure and people will talk shit about them, which they will!

Genes are everything. But the biggest myth in all my over 30 years of following bodybuilding is that pros train like it's life and death. That their willpower and pain tolerance is on another level. A few do, but generally it's all BS. I know a pro who has been to the O stage several times and his training is pathetic. 135lbs bb rows, 280lbs deadlifts, 20lbs db curls and so on. Diet is shit too except for a few weeks before shows. And the female pros are even worse, top female pro bodybuilders. They don't really exert themselves, just go through the motions, laugh and gossip half the session.

Shitty bodybuilders are mostly shitty because of shitty genes. Not because they can't conjure that killer instinct. This is not to discount effort altogether. Some like Dorian showed what genes + training like a madman can do. High effort pays as long as the genes are there but most top pros don't do anything special as far as training.

When I was a kid I read articles about Arnold training to the point of passing out and vomiting. Some talked about shitting blood or even getting a fever after hard workouts. Then you see them actually "training" lol. It was all BS. Even Dorian's training wasn't all that when I saw his tape. Say one set of 6 with 400lbs on the incline with one forced rep. Yeah hardly something that will almost send you to the hospital with rhabdo.

Agree very much w/your post. The hardest guys I ever witnessed training in person were amateurs or local guys. The times I saw pros train it was nothing to write home about. Now, the footage I've seen of Platz training; I don't doubt that he was the hardest, or at least one of the hardest training bodybuilders ever. I mean, it's hard to discount that since the vids are out there but for the most part, pros who trained like him were pretty rare. Ronnie also comes to mind but more so for the insanely heavy weights (a little different than Platz's "intensity"). I never really saw anyone in person who carried an ifbb pro card kill themselves in the gym, though. I'm sure they exist but are in the minority.

Explorerspl · Oct 18, 2021

thethinker48 said:
It can if you are meant to do this

Some people's bodies are meant to be 5'8 230+lbs at 4-5% bodyfat? Interesting.

airman · Oct 18, 2021

KillerStack said:
So in other words he is lying in your view? Maybe he is. But what about if you also have 80iu of Humalog and 10iu of pharma growth in there every day?
It is interesting that every pro or amateur who has claimed Milos almost killed them with drugs agreed that the roids were low but the insulin was high. Most recent was Mike Wheels. Milos said he told him to do like a cc of test and EQ twice weekly. Wheels didn't deny this, he had problems with the 30-50ius of insulin. I guess he felt safer when he was doing 3 grams of test as a base with 10 other drugs on top and only did 10 units of insulin LoL.

How much do you think Milos actually ran? The 3 to 5 grams most others do? Milos claims he never went above 1.5 grams. I have a hard time believing that myself considering the extreme stuff he did do. Like ruining his arms completely to the point it made him stop competing - the arms were literally rotting. So why wouldn't he have pushed the roids to the max just to see what would happen? I asked Milos this myself and he said that, no he never even experimented.

Related, I remember Milos gave his diet journals to Nasser and Nasser said Milos was trying to trick him, no way could he eat like the journals said. Milos was supposedly like, "you think I wrote years worth of diet journals just to trick you?" LoL. The carbs were just too high. Moreover Milos claimed he didn't go a day below 400 grams of protein. Nasser was a bullshitter himself. Claimed he didn't eat more than 80 grams of protein in the off season. Even Chad who was close to Nasser laughed about this.

What I find the most amusing with Mike's blame on Milos and insulin protocols for his heart problems, is that he openly admits and talks about on a podcast how he started doing cocaine amongst other recreational drugs as young as 13, and it was bodybuilding "that saved his life". Yet he fails to make the connection that doing cocaine throughout his teenage years might have something to do with his heart problems and not the insulin. Maybe the insulin contributed (I'm still not sure how) but I'm sure doing cocaine was more detrimental than the insulin.

Feel bad kind of calling him out, as he is a good guy (local to me) and seen him around many times, but this is something he has spoken about publicly.

Ak47 · Oct 19, 2021

lookslikesausage said:
Agree very much w/your post. The hardest guys I ever witnessed training in person were amateurs or local guys. The times I saw pros train it was nothing to write home about. Now, the footage I've seen of Platz training; I don't doubt that he was the hardest, or at least one of the hardest training bodybuilders ever. I mean, it's hard to discount that since the vids are out there but for the most part, pros who trained like him were pretty rare. Ronnie also comes to mind but more so for the insanely heavy weights (a little different than Platz's "intensity"). I never really saw anyone in person who carried an ifbb pro card kill themselves in the gym, though. I'm sure they exist but are in the minority.

!!! I’ve seen so many pros workout and honestly it’s so underwhelming! This whole notion that pros just simply outwork the average lifter just ain’t true! I’ve seen it during off season and precontest prep and honestly a lot of average lifters put in a lot more work than the pros. I live in a city that’s got a lot of the top pros from all divisions both male and female.

danieltx · Oct 19, 2021

Y'all need to name names of these pros who don't train hard because I can name plenty of modern pros who train very hard and have put out videos to prove it - Hunter Labrada, Iain Valliere, Brett Wilkin, Martin Fitzwater, Nick Walker, Steve Kuclo, Akim Williams, James Hollingshead, Shaun Clarida, Luke Sandoe. There's 10. Who are the pros who don't train hard?

NEMSZ · Oct 19, 2021

airman said:
What I find the most amusing with Mike's blame on Milos and insulin protocols for his heart problems, is that he openly admits and talks about on a podcast how he started doing cocaine amongst other recreational drugs as young as 13, and it was bodybuilding "that saved his life". Yet he fails to make the connection that doing cocaine throughout his teenage years might have something to do with his heart problems and not the insulin. Maybe the insulin contributed (I'm still not sure how) but I'm sure doing cocaine was more detrimental than the insulin.

Feel bad kind of calling him out, as he is a good guy (local to me) and seen him around many times, but this is something he has spoken about publicly.

Well for what it’s worth; I went back to his post on IG where he had the heart issues from back in April and he stated he got Cardiomyopathy, which I highly doubt had anything to do with using cocaine 15 years earlier lol...

He also made a post recently of him looking huge and saying he was going to dwarf that self in 2022 so clearly, cardiomyopathy had zero effect on him slowing things down lol...

Also, we don’t know what he does with his personal life, could he have been in 50iu insulin and eating 7k calories a day and on 300mg Tren a day and also doing a bunch of coke or Rec drugs?? Sure, maybe a bunch of factors played a role. But I’d bet being super heavy, and he obviously doesn’t care that much about his health so whatever he was abusing and maybe diuretics and things like that played a role...

VaginaBoob89 · Oct 19, 2021

btails said:
As with a lot of things in life.. you don't get the full story until it's earned and you're ready.. you pay your dues and eventually someone will take you aside and tell you what's up.

Yeah basically this. There's so much variance in how seriously people actually train and how deep their commitments to lifting really are. Too many shallow people who aren't truly in love with the lifestyle but just like the attention from it who probably shouldn't be messing themselves up with hormones. Save it for when somebody has proven themselves to really be a devotee to the iron cult.

KillerStack · Oct 19, 2021

danieltx said:
Y'all need to name names of these pros who don't train hard because I can name plenty of modern pros who train very hard and have put out videos to prove it - Hunter Labrada, Iain Valliere, Brett Wilkin, Martin Fitzwater, Nick Walker, Steve Kuclo, Akim Williams, James Hollingshead, Shaun Clarida, Luke Sandoe. There's 10. Who are the pros who don't train hard?

It's not even that you have to necessarily kill yourself, sometimes that type of training isn't "smart." It's just that there are plenty of top bodybuilders who don't do anything out of the ordinary compared to average gym rats. Then there are ones who push the limits like the ones you mentioned. When I was a kid I read about Arnold's training being out of this world intensity only to realise that the intensity wasn't that extreme. You don't train 2 × 2 hours every day like he claimed by taking all your sets to failure and beyond. But that's what the articles claimed. Compare to Dorian's 4 x 45 mintutes per week. Intensity is inversely related to volume. Tom Platz talked about his leg training at his peak being 2 "death sets" of squats every other week.

One example of "failure" training not quite being such is the angled leg press. Over 30 years I can count on one hand I've seen somebody actually failing on that exercise. "Failure" then becomes 1-3 or more reps shy of mechanical failure. Note that you don't necessarily have to train to failure, just commenting on the terms used.

KillerStack · Oct 19, 2021

NEMSZ said:
Well for what it’s worth; I went back to his post on IG where he had the heart issues from back in April and he stated he got Cardiomyopathy, which I highly doubt had anything to do with using cocaine 15 years earlier lol...

I don't know if recs had anything to do with his heart issues but I could see where you'd incur some damage over the years, starting when one starts abusing recs. Then at some point you actually see symptoms, doesn't mean the danage was incurred just then, just that it finally manifested. Also, some might reel in their rec use but continue with Adderall or whatever - things like pharma stims are very popular in some circles.

There's one pro who has had amazing longevity considering all the issues he's had over the years including rec drug use. But now I think I can tell he's on some sort of strong stim just by the way his jaw moves. You know, jutting jaw pulled just a tiny bit to one side. Some defy all risk factors and are still at least somewhat healthy.

Bio · Oct 19, 2021

NEMSZ said:
Well for what it’s worth; I went back to his post on IG where he had the heart issues from back in April and he stated he got Cardiomyopathy, which I highly doubt had anything to do with using cocaine 15 years earlier lol...

He also made a post recently of him looking huge and saying he was going to dwarf that self in 2022 so clearly, cardiomyopathy had zero effect on him slowing things down lol...

Also, we don’t know what he does with his personal life, could he have been in 50iu insulin and eating 7k calories a day and on 300mg Tren a day and also doing a bunch of coke or Rec drugs?? Sure, maybe a bunch of factors played a role. But I’d bet being super heavy, and he obviously doesn’t care that much about his health so whatever he was abusing and maybe diuretics and things like that played a role...

Cocaine is a vasoconstrictor which robs the heart of oxygen causing many types of cardiovascular disease including cardiomyopathy. I doubt he was going to a cardiologist back then!

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6387265/

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.110.940569

NEMSZ · Oct 19, 2021

Bio said:
Cocaine is a vasoconstrictor which robs the heart of oxygen causing many types of cardiovascular disease including cardiomyopathy. I doubt he was going to a cardiologist back then!

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6387265/

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.110.940569

Im aware of all that, but isn’t that more a concern with someone who’s currently abusing cocaine, and also the method of abuse? I’ve had a cardiologist tell me straight up that the main concern with cocaine is IV use of it..

I just don’t see how someone can do coke as a teenager, which lets be honest, he probably wasn’t banging out 8 balls every night at 17 years old, he was probably doing in a week what I know some people will do in an hour lol then 15 years later they get cardiomyopathy because of that and not because of the obvious...

I live in Miami, so I can confidently say that if it was like that then 90% of this city would have cardiomyopathy lol..

All joking aside though, I’ve met several people who did cocaine for years and years, I’m talking some 20-30 years and they’re older, got sober and they don’t have cardiomyopathy or anything that severe.. I’m sure they’re not 100% healthy but they’re not on death’s door like this guy almost was... I even met a guy in his 70’s who’s been banging away at coke since the 80’s and even if he were to die now he’d be dying at the average life expectancy lol

Can it be a mixture of genetics where maybe this Mike guy had a genetic predisposition and the coke obviously didn’t help?? Sure, I can believe that...

But to blame it on something he supposedly hasn’t touched in years and years sounds kinda off to me... But we’re not looking at the major AAS/HGH/Slin abuse he’s admitted to which we know enlarges the heart in a lot of cases and we’ve had several members on here get cardiomyopathy the same way that have never even touched a rec drug?? But also let’s keep in mind that he might have also been abusing the shit out of stimulants like adderall/Phentermine or Clen and thyroid drugs etc... That all basically does the same shit as cocaine, none of that stimulant abuse, just because it isn’t cocaine or meth, is good for you.. lol

I know this is a hardcore BBing forum and you despise the “swimsuit model” train of thought, and that’s NOT where I’m going with this.. Keep it hardcore, but this stuff happens with the hardcore bodybuilding lifestyle...

GaJoe · Oct 19, 2021

Explorerspl said:
That cycle wouldn't even get you a pro card in the past 30 years much less have you on the Olympia stage

This is why there is so much secrecy.....because it can be right under your nose and you still call it a secret. I used to be the same way when I was looking for the "secret". I used to dose as high as these crazy cycles you read about. Worst I ever was physically and mentally. Some of you guys refuse to see it for what it is. I'm not saying some guys aren't using a ton because they are. Some are using way less. What more do you want than the actual cycles from the coaches which you now have? How much do you really think a body can absorb without effects? You can lay it out and you still have some who will say "no way possible".

Other things are way more of a factor that's overlooked. If you have to take gobs and gobs of gear to turn pro then what are you going to do to compete as a pro? You're going to have to do way more and if you do then you'll have a short career. If one coach had the magic answer wouldn't every single athlete that person worked with be at the top? For the vast majority it's just not in the cards to be the way these top guys are. I'm one of them. But ramping the gear on up is not going to make me one either. I just do the things I can control like train my butt off, get every meal in every single day, and get good rest for starters. The cycle listed did not get me a pro card....it was FAR less. If I listed it some of you guys would try to get me kicked off the board lol. And before you let your mind go there I turned pro at 260 lbs @ 6'2. That's transparency and that might make me a liar to some....but that's what worked for me.

lookslikesausage · Oct 19, 2021

danieltx said:
Y'all need to name names of these pros who don't train hard because I can name plenty of modern pros who train very hard and have put out videos to prove it - Hunter Labrada, Iain Valliere, Brett Wilkin, Martin Fitzwater, Nick Walker, Steve Kuclo, Akim Williams, James Hollingshead, Shaun Clarida, Luke Sandoe. There's 10. Who are the pros who don't train hard?

To your last question-Paul Dillett, Flex Wheeler, Vince Taylor, Rhoden, JP Fux...those were top guys. I agree with you about Akim. He does go hard and heavy. Great guy too. I've seen most of the names train on video too. I would say that they train moderately hard but not at the level of a Tom Platz. Kuclo used to train with a guy named Justin Harris. He trained pretty hard from what I recall, although I don't think he went pro and does a lot of coaching now for the past 10-15 years.

maldorf · Oct 19, 2021

danieltx said:
Y'all need to name names of these pros who don't train hard because I can name plenty of modern pros who train very hard and have put out videos to prove it - Hunter Labrada, Iain Valliere, Brett Wilkin, Martin Fitzwater, Nick Walker, Steve Kuclo, Akim Williams, James Hollingshead, Shaun Clarida, Luke Sandoe. There's 10. Who are the pros who don't train hard?

The question to me isn't do they train hard, but rather do they train 3x harder than many of our members on here? Is most of their size and development just due to the fact that they out work others?

danieltx · Oct 19, 2021

lookslikesausage said:
To your last question-Paul Dillett, Flex Wheeler, Vince Taylor, Rhoden, JP Fux...those were top guys. I agree with you about Akim. He does go hard and heavy. Great guy too. I've seen most of the names train on video too. I would say that they train moderately hard but not at the level of a Tom Platz. Kuclo used to train with a guy named Justin Harris. He trained pretty hard from what I recall, although I don't think he went pro and does a lot of coaching now for the past 10-15 years.

There are videos of Rhoden leg pressing with both sets of horns loaded up and people sitting on the sled, how is that not training maximally hard? Labrada put out a video last year failing at the bottom of a 900lb. Hack squat, how is that not training maximally hard? Hollingshead has multiple videos bent rowing 405 and floor deadlifting 600-700, how is that not training maximally hard?

You live in the past as evidenced by your preference in bodybuilders, exercise equipment, and music. That's fine, we all have our preferences, but don't let it cloud your vision of today. I'd bet that guys today are better at maximally fatiguing the muscle with as little work as possible and that's the true definition of training hard - I don't think many people understand that.

maldorf said:
The question to me isn't do they train hard, but rather do they train 3x harder than many of our members on here? Is most of their size and development just due to the fact that they out work others?

I think they do train many times harder than the majority of members here. We have 156,000 members. Of the small percentage that actually post pictures, how many are close to pro size and muscular development? I think the pros size and development is partially through hard training and partially through genetics - doesn't matter how hard I train my arms, they won't end up like Nick Walker's. And I can confidently put myself in that select group who trains as hard as those guys as I have lifts where I'm pretty close in weight / reps and I've added almost 40lbs. of muscle in the last few years.

maldorf · Oct 19, 2021

danieltx said:
doesn't matter how hard I train my arms, they won't end up like Nick Walker's. And I can confidently put myself in that select group who trains as hard as those guys as I have lifts where I'm pretty close in weight / reps and I've added almost 40lbs. of muscle in the last few years.

Right. Thats my point. Sure most pros train hard, but they dont train 3x as hard as you. They might look 3x as good but its not all because of their work ethic. Some guys are just naturally gifted. My roomate in college was a division 1 football player and had a pretty strong bench. He could rep out 405 lbs for about 12 reps easy, and he barely worked out it seemed. He just did the mandatory football workout which wasnt much. I knew a little 185 lb guy that could rep out 315 for 20 reps. It came easy. In the same sense, some guys have huge muscles naturally before they even touch a weight. Some of us have to work like hell to get there.

jeroendebleser · Oct 19, 2021

In general I would agree with KS that most pro's I've seen tra

cage99 · Oct 20, 2021

Whenever someone calls me out for not being natural I always own it and say “yep, I use about 1/2 cup daily”…. Haters gonna hate!

Cage

lookslikesausage · Oct 20, 2021

danieltx said:
There are videos of Rhoden leg pressing with both sets of horns loaded up and people sitting on the sled, how is that not training maximally hard? Labrada put out a video last year failing at the bottom of a 900lb. Hack squat, how is that not training maximally hard? Hollingshead has multiple videos bent rowing 405 and floor deadlifting 600-700, how is that not training maximally hard?

You live in the past as evidenced by your preference in bodybuilders, exercise equipment, and music. That's fine, we all have our preferences, but don't let it cloud your vision of today. I'd bet that guys today are better at maximally fatiguing the muscle with as little work as possible and that's the true definition of training hard - I don't think many people understand that.

I think they do train many times harder than the majority of members here. We have 156,000 members. Of the small percentage that actually post pictures, how many are close to pro size and muscular development? I think the pros size and development is partially through hard training and partially through genetics - doesn't matter how hard I train my arms, they won't end up like Nick Walker's. And I can confidently put myself in that select group who trains as hard as those guys as I have lifts where I'm pretty close in weight / reps and I've added almost 40lbs. of muscle in the last few years.

I can't agree with you at all about Rhoden. The majority of his training sessions that I have seen appeared to be quite lackluster. In general, I do think most bodybuilders of the past trained harder. That doesn't mean they trained smarter. Just harder (as stated). I will admit that I haven't seen a ton of the bodybuilders you mentioned training videos. But about Rhoden, I would never consider him a "hard" trainer and that's fine because A. who am I? and B. what he does worked well enough for him. He built a great physique but he didn't do by training his ass off (strictly my opinion) where as someone like Ronnie did (for better or worse). Would Ronnie have built the same physique doing things differently? Who can say?

For the most part, I judge most athletes level training (in terms of how hard) by simply looking at their leg training. Is it easy? Are they barely struggling? If the answer is yes, then chances are they probably don't train the rest of their body hard either. Of course, if they have overwhelming legs and are just trying to maintain an already outstanding bodypart then it makes sense, but I'd say that's not often the case.

And you may be right, guys today might be better at maximally fatiguing the muscle with as little work as possible. That's training efficiently. In my eyes, that's not necessarily hard. Let me explain...let's say I put 50 lbs. on an EZ curl bar and do Preacher Curl. I hit failure at 6 reps. Would you say I was training hard? Would you say I trained to failure? Both? Now let's say it's the same scenario and after I hit failure at 6 reps, I stip 10 lbs off, get 4 reps. Then strip another 10 lbs. off and get 5 reps. For me, that fits closer to my idea of training hard than the first scenario. Some might say drop sets are unnecessary. Some might say it quickly leads to overtraining. Simply hitting failure to me isn't automatically training hard. Hitting true failure on a leg extension usually does mean "hard" because hitting failure with legs is indeed difficult. Very few ever truly reach it. Hitting failure on a triceps extension is easy. So what you might consider "hard" I would consider efficient, but not automatically hard. However, in some scenarios it is both hard and efficient (again, my opinion). German Volume Training for example, done in its true intended fashion is something I'd consider hard.

Let's look at the Bulgarian Weightlifters of the 80's under Ivan Abadzhiev when they were kicking everyone's ass. They were maxing out nearly every training session. They were often getting injured. They often failed and missed lifts. They did train hard by almost all standards but was it hard simply because they failed at certain points in their training? Or was it hard because they struggled often during the majority of their training sessions? I think failure is a very key point in training and the level at which the training's difficulty is judged but it's not necessarily the only barometer. Now you could say that I used a bad example because that's Weightlifting and it's different than bodybuilding and it's true but I think the principle still applies to a bodybuilder as well. I guess it just depends on how much you value training to failure and if (for you) it's the pinnacle of all training variables. I value it very high too but there are other variables that can also make training hard even if the trainee isn't necessarily going to failure. Now whether or not that's efficient is a different story.