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Botox, Steroids, and Tylenol...

OuchThatHurts

Moderator / Psy, Ret.
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Just some things that have been wandering around my mind for a few days as I’ve been reading these Marion Jones threads. Someone on another board suggested maybe we should not just throw our hands up in the air over these performance enhancing drugs but I ask you: What else are you going to do? Performance enhancement isn't going away. And don't worry, I’m not starting a pro-steroid thread here but I’m curious what defines the line between acceptable enhancement and unacceptable enhancement. And who decides?

In a perfect world, there would be no need for performance enhancement as everyone would be just as perfect as the next person and competition would not exist. It is because one desires to be better or have more than the next person that humans have risen to the top of the food chain. Every war or competition ever waged is the culmination and ultimate expression of that desire. Without the competitive nature of our existence, we become complacent, apathetic, and useless. Look at a man, and then look at the same man after he's been unemployed for two years. You will see not only mental changes but clear physiological changes as well. It takes a lot of drugs to combat the effects of day-to-day surrender.

When you take Tylenol, don't you do it so that you can perform better? What about when you drink a few cups of coffee in the morning to get going? My point is that regardless of whether it is natural or unnatural makes no difference if that thing you take into your body gives you an edge and makes you better or more enhanced than you were before right? Or no?

I have dealt with, discussed, and read much on all sorts of medications including performance enhancing chemicals. More than I care to think about. In the early 90's, The AMA was opposed to the classification of steroidal performance enhancing drugs. Although I'm almost certain deaths have indeed occurred relating to their use, I know of no conclusively proven steroid-related death. I do know, however, that acetominophen is the second leading cause of fatal cirrhosis of the liver behind alcohol. My point is that it is believed by much of the medical community that in healthy adults, steroids pose little or no health risks. In fact, they may even have benefits. I'm not trying to make a case for these chemicals though because they are what they are and it is what it is so I will simply throw my hands up in the air (because I'm not about to go on a crusade).

It's interesting that people will allow themselves to be put under a general anesthetic and be cut open strictly for cosmetic reasons alone. This is in fact dangerous and has resulted in many conclusive deaths. How do you feel about those practices? Women will take massive amounts of hormones to prevent ovulation and at the highest levels, prevent menstruation in the desire to continue to live life to their ideal standard of living, which is their right correct? Of course! Yet, again, drugs like Depo-Provera and all forms of hormonal birth control are now known, conclusively, to cause an increased risk of stroke, amenhoria, anorgasmia, decreased libido, breast cancer, etc.

I could go on and on and even bore myself with all the perhaps hundreds of chemicals, procedures, and devices we use everyday without much thought whatsoever but rest assured that every one of them is meant to improve our standards of performance (or competition). They are all, in one form or another, "performance enhancing".

Okay, those are just some random and somewhat incoherent thoughts but things I believe worthy of consideration. Another consideration is a political/social one. Don't worry. I refuse to express any political conspiracy jargon but merely would like to mention that we live in a capitalist society in the USA. This means that even in our daily lives, to survive, we are challenged by society itself to be better than the business down the street, or better than the other manager down the hall - even amongst our own team members and coworkers. That is all I have to say about that but put simply, it is a competitive marketplace and only the strongest and smartest survive. Period.

Okay, this is getting long so if you've gotten this far you're probably bored out of your skull like I am. So just to summarize - Given the medical community's views on these chemicals and compared to what is already perfectly legal, in fact, encouraged, and in light of the undeniable competitive world in which surrounds us, the question I suppose I have is how far you are willing to go to enhance your performance? I’m not asking whether or not you do, I already know that you do. So we already do enhance our performance in one form or another. How much are we free to decide for ourselves and how much do we need a note from our parent or guardian first? Please look at the following list of items.

Coffee/caffeine
Botox
Liposuction
Insider trading
Concentrated protein powders and isolates
Creatine monohydrate
Breast/penis enhancement
Birth control
Progressive weight training
Tylenol/acetominophen
Prozac/antidepressants
Pro-hormones
Tax evasion
Testosterone/analogues
Lasik eye surgery
Xanax/depressants
High protein diet (i.e. >500gms per day)

Everything in the above list is either illegal, potentially dangerous, or both. None of the above is necessary for survival. Let's face it, it's a slippery slope and we all try to get the edge on the competition. Even if it means we put ourselves in harm's way. Whether we like it or not, our health and evolution depends on it and that is one aspect of our nature that will never be legislated.
 
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The majority of things that humans take are to perform better or to perform at all and this is a given.

Why the government choses to pick certain things to pick on could be some sort of conspiracy but that is another topic altogether.

Why can I go to the surgeon down the road and ask him to suck all the fat out of my body but I am not allowed to take something to aid me in fat loss that in turn is safer in the long run? Why can I go to this same surgeon and ask him to put fake implants in certain parts of my body but they will not allow me to aid myself with a chemical to attain that goal through hard work?

I would like to say the answer is complex it has many issues that I am either too ignorant to see or have not been educated on. I do not feel this is the case though it is just another bullshit thing the government of certain countries do not want the public doing.

I really could ramble on and on about this...

I think the powers at be have always had a A$$ backward agenda and it will continue to be that way no matter what the public says or does.

DW

P.S. Sorry if this post makes no sense whatsoever as it is 4 in the morning and I need some rest.
 
Without the competitive nature of our existence, we become complacent, apathetic, and useless.

:eek:

Harsh! But you're so right.

Humans need something to fight for. No more dreams/goals = premature death

Hence the use of whatever help we can get our hands on in order to rise to or even stay at the top.

If unfortunately you fail in your quest and then decide to give up, chances are you slowly fade away till you reach "the state of zombie"... once you have let your dreams die, you're not alive anymore :cool:
 
AAS are being banned in sports because of a delusional concept of "fair play". However when anyone who has been involved even a little bit in competitive sports will understand that fair play is impossible - why? Because of genetics. This whole concept is flawed and the sooner people understand it, the closer will we be to a legalisation of performance enhancers.
 
Good Post! I agree and on a personal level I don't think anyone has the right to limit me or tell me anything that I can't do for the betterment of my life if I am not hurting someone else in the process.
 
Humans need something to fight for. No more dreams/goals = premature death

Hence the use of whatever help we can get our hands on in order to rise to or even stay at the top.

If unfortunately you fail in your quest and then decide to give up, chances are you slowly fade away till you reach "the state of zombie"... once you have let your dreams die, you're not alive anymore :cool:
Absolutely. And I'm not trying to make a case for steroids. I'm only pointing out that in one form or another, every one of us is trying to "get an edge" on the competition, whether it be better breasts, stronger muscles, or whatever the case may be. If you don't try to find some way to give yourself an edge, you better become very comfortable with losing. If you're born with an edge, than you are lucky, but does that mean that the other 99.9% of humanity should become content with being losers? By the same logic, wouldn't born-in genetics be an unfair advantage?

AAS are being banned in sports because of a delusional concept of "fair play". However when anyone who has been involved even a little bit in competitive sports will understand that fair play is impossible - why? Because of genetics. This whole concept is flawed and the sooner people understand it, the closer will we be to a legalisation of performance enhancers.
Their is no such thing as fair play. If play was perfectly fair, every match would end up in a draw. But in reality, there are few draws because one opponent is genetically stronger, has a better coach, has inside information, etc... an advantage.

Good Post! I agree and on a personal level I don't think anyone has the right to limit me or tell me anything that I can't do for the betterment of my life if I am not hurting someone else in the process.
Hmm... well the government has the right. The question there though is since they're only selectively limiting people, who is it that they believe they are giving the advantage to? And why? Those are rhetorical questions by the way. The answers would be brutal to discuss.
 
oh ive touched on this...

so many times its become annouying.... remember back in the 90's when if someone got busted or testd for AAS it was no big deal? It fell between the cracks so to speak. But now its a over dramatized news? Caffiene is the biggest performance enhancing drug used of all time!!! Lets take that way from the billions of people out there that use it b4 work!! Oh and no derivatives of it either... no drinx, nothing! Why is it ok for swimmers to shave body hair and bicyclists weird designed helmets for aerodynamics. No more chiropracters, massage therapists, nutritionists, supplements... back to the good ol days of cavemen... lets eliminate all variables of enhancement.... IMO its all about control... the govt wants to control everything it can... I say "Keep your laws off my body"

gooey
 
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I can understand an organization having their rules. For instance, if the NFL or the IOC wants to say that this substance is on a banned list, that's fine. Then people who desire to use those substances should find another league or seek to have the rules changed. After all, directly disobeying the rules of an athletic organization and getting caught well... you got caught! And sure enough, just like when we were twelve and found out that someone was sneaking monopoly money under the table, we yelled 'cheater, cheater, pumpkin eater!' for DAYS!!! Because everyone hates a cheater. Even the cheater.

I think the people who are found to be breaking the rules in those organizations should be dealt with through suspensions or expulsion through the organization.

Unfortunately, years ago, the federal government stepped in on all of this. So along with the humiliation of getting caught cheating and being suspended from the game (or whatever), you also get a nice big legal problem.

Could the government's message be, "Hey! No more cheating in your games!" ???

mmmm.... nah.
 
To me, constantly seeking a performance edge in all competetive arena's of life (work, love, sport, etc) is what makes life so much fun.

There will always be challenges in front of us, and the strong will always be looking to overcome those challenges by making themselves better.

Great post BTW!
 
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Excellent post OTH! I have been in a real "thinking mood" for a while and this question really appealed to me.
When I looked at the examples you gave, it left me with a couple of thoughts. Should we take ethics into consideration in your question? You answered that in another post when speaking of violating rules that are set in place. However, everyone has a different set of beliefs when it comes to their own ethical standards and morals. There is still a wide range of ethics for people who do not believe in breaking laws. There are money funds that will not invest in cigarrete manufacturers, alcohol companies, casinos or gambling operations, etc... Everyone draws their line at a different place. The laws sort of try to give us a common place to draw the line, but there is just no clear cut line for everyone and there's a lot of grey in this white and black world.
You also have some who will even go so far as justifying cheating the system if they feel others are not abiding by the same rules. Also, you have the issue that not everyone agrees with all of the laws. I.e. "Bad Laws."
I didn't want to go strictly into discussion of steroids, b/c like you pointed out there are other "performance enhancing" tools that people use. However, this seems to be the one that interests us most on this board.
Let's just quickly look at it. In my mind, there is both the media sensationalizing problem with AAS and also the problem of a general population that is properly educated and accepting of their use. I hear everyone pointing there finger at the government, but why aren't we also pointing the finger at our neighbors? The word "steroid" has this really negative conotation to the majority of people. Blame it on the media or whatever you like, but that is really a tough thing to overcome. The only way I can see to overcome this is to hype up how safe steroids are. With just as much sensationalism. Now most of US have the opinion that steroids are safe if used with sane doses, etc... We're more educated on the risks and health factors. There is even still a lack of education in the medical community depending on who you speak with.
Maybe a compromise would be something like "prescription" strength steroid and OTC "strength"?

Hmm...Looking forward to following this discussion.

Mack
 
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I hope this post stays around for some good discussion. IMO one word comes to mind when we talk about enhancement....MONEY! There are big bucks in the enhancement game. From the people (Dr's and pharma Co's) that prescribe or perform enhancement proceedures and drugs to the companies that manufacture to aid or supply. We can then add the elite coaches and trainers to the money list. Teams and individuals will pay big money to gain the edge through enhanceing their performance, even if by hiring the best coach/trainer out there. Bring government into this and we have taxes on these enhanceing proceedures and medicines. So we look at the legalities involved. Sure there will always be black market and this "cheats" all those in the food chain of their rightful cut, so they scream foul! The system as we know it plays on the fact that we all want an edge somewhere, somehow. Hell the sporting goods industry wants it's sponsored athletes to be the world's best because it sell product and they make more profits from these sales, They really do not care how this is done as long as the athlete does not get caught. So it all boils down MONEY. Money will buy the best enhancement available, so is it no surprise who comes out of the olympics and other high profile events with the most medals?? Is it by chance? I think not. Is it Fair? No way! Will it continue?....................YOU BET YOUR ASS!
 
There is no doubt that performance enhancement in all it's forms is big business. Almost every single ad on TV markets their product to you as if "look at how much better you'll be if you use our product!"

I used to think AAS were the epitome of performance enhancement and taking risks for performance and cosmetic benefit at the extreme. Now I'm not so sure. Why just look at the recent "Carving" thread posted by Kaiser. Is that less extreme than AAS? What about liposuction? A nose job... it goes on and on.

Even Men's Health (not exactly a bastion of bodybuilding documentary) had an article recently about declining testosterone and the desire of American males to look for HRT. Look at these excerpts (pay particular close attention to the last paragraph):

"All this could Make testosterone therapy a more likely part of your life as you age. Demand is already booming. Last year, according to IMS, a pharmaceutical information company, U.S. doctors wrote more than 2.5 million testosterone prescriptions, and the market was worth more than $500 million to pharmaceutical companies. That's double what it was 5 years ago."

"The case for considering testosterone therapy became even more compelling this past summer, when researchers at the University of California at San Diego released results from their long-term study of men over 50. Participants whose testosterone levels tested low in the early 1980s but who were otherwise healthy had a 33 percent higher risk of death over the following 2 decades. Another study, from the University of Washington, looked at men over 40 who already had health problems, and found that low testosterone dramatically increased their risk of death."

"So which are you? And what should you do? A good doctor is the place to start, but even doctors have no certain answers, and your government has guaranteed doctors won't get answers for decades to come. So when it comes to doing the right thing about testosterone, the truth is that you're pretty much on your own."(1)

This is a main stream magazine telling people that a doctor is a good place to start? And then they're on their own?

And now, courtesy of Raw Deal, they've guaranteed that not only will you be on your own but now further underground, the more dangerous counterfeits will hit the black market. It would be more ridiculous if I didn't feel that more people were going to suffer infections and problems from unclean hormones that, rest assured, they will use.

I guess you could say, "Well if you take the risk, sometimes you have to pay the price." That would fly if it weren't for one thing: there should not have to be any risk in the first place.

Let's just hope the medical community picks up where Raw Deal left everyone off. But I'm not holding my breath.

(1) Mens Health, Testosterone Under Attack, article by Richard Connif
 
Well if we lok at the other side of RAW DEAL, did it or will it force more people to take matters into their own hands? Is it only to create a new demand for some of the Hormones produced by pharm companies? So are they about to create their own market (PHARM CO's) for TRT/HRT? Will this now force more males into the medical system from which millions and millions of dollars will flow? Was raw deal a result of pressure form the big pharm companies losing out on billions in revenue from the hormone market and the federal govt's attempt to get control over the chinese market flooding the US with it's less expensive product? I am sure the answer to mmore than one of these questions is yes. It has or is creating a dangerous stuation as you pointed out though. With this being pushed that much farther underground it does compromise the integrity of the products' safety and thus placing the end user at greaster risk. But if the real risk of having low test levels is realy that high, what measure will people take to get hold of some and at what price. If this does in fact place more people in the care of a doctor then this is a good thing. Only if the gov't is preparred to acknowledge our right to a happier, healthier and longer life. Somehow I just don't think so.
 
ouch.. here is the funny thing.. a while ago on one of the channels they had a show about [plastic surgery.. at the end of the show they stated that plastic surgery was "basically safe" and showed the stats.. what shocked me was the actual amount of deaths each year from plastic surgery.. but, it was considered safe.. yet, the "deaths" are virtually non existant when looking at gear related deaths.. yet, somehow in teh media gear is considered unsafe.. why?
well, it is because many in congress partake in cosmetic surgery.. many drink.. many take numerous prescription drugs.. many smoke.. ect ect.. so they are not going to vote against their "vice"..

in the early 1990's, the dea said that they did not deem anabolics a threat to the general public and did not see any reason to make them a scheduled drug.. yet congress did anyway.. now.. their feelings ahve changed?.. why?.. the drug did not change.. surely they dont buy into the media hype... i would hope they are smarted then that..:confused:

the LANCET .. a medical journel in the uk and highly esteemed ranked 20 drugs last year in their journal in regards to health issues, socio-economic impact on the community and crime.. steroids were 16th.. 16th out of 20 in regards to their impact on health and crime/socio-impact.. yet we here in the states act as though it is crack cocaine.. a reasonable mind cannot grasp the stupidity..:confused: we base our laws on morality.. we deem steroids as cheating.. and therefore we make them illegal.. not only make it illegal to use in sports but, somehow make the leap of logic to make it illegal to the general public.. if you try and make sense of it your head will explode..:(
 
the LANCET .. a medical journel in the uk and highly esteemed ranked 20 drugs last year in their journal in regards to health issues, socio-economic impact on the community and crime.. steroids were 16th.. 16th out of 20 in regards to their impact on health and crime/socio-impact.. yet we here in the states act as though it is crack cocaine.. a reasonable mind cannot grasp the stupidity..:confused: we base our laws on morality.. we deem steroids as cheating.. and therefore we make them illegal.. not only make it illegal to use in sports but, somehow make the leap of logic to make it illegal to the general public.. if you try and make sense of it your head will explode..:(

Wow Lats. That is really some statistic!

I was thinking about what OldFella said about pharma companies pushing to shut down UG's, etc... OTH also made mention of this. Its interesting and I wonder if it is necessarily a bad thing. Let's say pharma pushed to have more steroids sold for HRT purposes. You would have a physician monitor you. More research would be provided that is probably pro-steroid as its backed by big pharma bucks. Big Pharma would want to educate more and more doctors on its use and safety. Would it be more acceptable in society? Physicians would be promoting its use more.
Now these are all assumptions, and I don't know if any of it holds water, but I think its interesting. Would sort of suck for the 20 somethings, initially, but would we see more scripts being handed out as big pharma pushed sales?
 
Wow Lats. That is really some statistic!

I was thinking about what OldFella said about pharma companies pushing to shut down UG's, etc... OTH also made mention of this. Its interesting and I wonder if it is necessarily a bad thing. Let's say pharma pushed to have more steroids sold for HRT purposes. You would have a physician monitor you. More research would be provided that is probably pro-steroid as its backed by big pharma bucks. Big Pharma would want to educate more and more doctors on its use and safety. Would it be more acceptable in society? Physicians would be promoting its use more.
Now these are all assumptions, and I don't know if any of it holds water, but I think its interesting. Would sort of suck for the 20 somethings, initially, but would we see more scripts being handed out as big pharma pushed sales?
Yes, this is where the gov't gets it's hand in the pie, it's called regulation. So the FDA lays down the guidelines for use and the doctors follow the rules. The pharm Co's sell more product and the gov't makes more taxes. it all fits neatly in a nice picture. Time will tell! The 20ish crowd will feed the black market, the lawyers will defend these people when they get caught.....etc, etc. MONEY, MONEY, MONEY!
 
I gotcha now OldFella. Making the product more expensive too no doubt and wiping out all the little guys...
 
mackster, i said months ago that the arrests and busts where pharma driven.. i also believe that the pharma companies see the profits that can be made.. that in turn will open up more hrt clinics.. then the issue becomes two fold.. 1) the regulations may ease up a bit about gear.. that is good.. but..2) the gov has its hands in the amount that can be prescribed and the duration and it will be regulated ad nauseum.. the only silver lining would then be the possible easing up of penalities ect.. again, it is all conjecture..:cool:
 
mackster, i said months ago that the arrests and busts where pharma driven.. i also believe that the pharma companies see the profits that can be made.. that in turn will open up more hrt clinics.. then the issue becomes two fold.. 1) the regulations may ease up a bit about gear.. that is good.. but..2) the gov has its hands in the amount that can be prescribed and the duration and it will be regulated ad nauseum.. the only silver lining would then be the possible easing up of penalities ect.. again, it is all conjecture..:cool:

Hey Lats. So do you think pharma would get together and lobby against Gov't to ease regulations on dosing? Providing their own studies of course. lol.
 
Hey Lats. So do you think pharma would get together and lobby against Gov't to ease regulations on dosing? Providing their own studies of course. lol.
The only lobbying the Big Pharm industry does is through bank accounts! And maybe behind closed doors at the oval office with briefcases full of money................I think they call those campaign donations;) :D
 

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