Steroids and the effects on heart

[EspenMuskelbunt1]

Hi guys! Want some information from smart and knowledgeable people here.
Today I was at a cardiologist, for a check-up at the heart. I am a participant for a science and research project around Steroids/PED's for Oslo University Hospital. Last time I was for a check-up, was 4 years ago, and today we saw that my heart is exactly the same, have not changed at all.
Normal pumping capacity and function (ejection fraction between 50-55) and normal left ventricular hypertrophy/ 12mm wall thickness which is around the same as people who do endurance sports (Skiing, bike, running etc), athlete's heart.

I had a disagrement with the cardiologist, because he said that steroids and growth hormone directely enlarged the heart, because that also is a muscle. But I said thats not necessary true, IF we control blood pressure and heart rate while on steroids. So yes, it can indirectly, but not directly I told him.
And the answer was in my results, because I have been on steroids last 4 years, growth hormone for over 2 years, but I control my blood pressure and heart rate and I was not suprised my heart did not changed, but he believed it was because genetics
So my question, is there any way steroids/GH enlarge the heart, if we make sure we have great blood pressure and heart rate?

 

[Hyperemia]

I accept that there is risk with using PEDs and that I may be doing harm in ways to the heart and other organs that I am unaware of. All we can do is minimize damage / risk but I am of the opinion that there’s no free rides in pursuing bodybuilding fueled by super physiological doses of PEDs, even when controlling BP / HR.

 

[bbxtreme]

Testosterone in range is cardio friendly. But when you start talking about supra-physiological levels all that goes out the window. It has been shown to cause heart enlargement when used at high amounts.

Can we “try” to mitigate those risk by keeping BP in check, inflammation down and controlling RHR and lifestyle factors around it? Sure.

But let’s not kid ourselves- our body is like an engine. It we take a stock engine and put a super charger on it that engine will break down quicker. You can try to slow that down with high performance parts and maintenance. But it will pre-maturely wear. Our body is no different.

Testosterone and the Heart - PMC

Testosterone (T) has a number of important effects on the cardiovascular system. In men, T levels begin to decrease after age 40, and this decrease has been associated with an increase in all-cause mortality and cardiovascular (CV) risk. Low T ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The role of androgens in pressure overload myocardial hypertrophy - PMC

Pressure overload hypertrophy of the left ventricle is a common result of many cardiovascular diseases. Androgens show anabolic effects in skeletal muscles, but also in myocardial hypertrophy. We carefully reviewed literature regarding possible ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Google Scholar

scholar.google.com

 

[mexbeast]

Over the years i have read so many studies showing steroids do enlarge the heart.

 

[primobolan]

Just had mine checked. Over 30 years in the game. Everything is normal. No left ventricular hypertrophy. I don't abuse GH and my cruise (true TRT) is always equal to the same length of a blast. Vials of GH year round because its now affordable is going to bite a lot of people in the ass in the years to come imo.

 

[Stewie]

Take a peek-a-boo at AR45 (androgen receptor-45) splice variants in cardiomyocytes. See if they're considered a negative regulator of full-lenght androgen receptors that limit hypertrophy of the heart. Cardiac hypertrophy isn't specific to growth factors, alone. While you're fulfilling the queries of AR45. Take a gander at hypoxia-inducible factors (HIFs), particularly HIF-1α and HIF-2α. See what their relationship is with cardiac hypertrophy. Think undiagnosed/uncontrolled sleep apnea when your poking around in that arena. A-many of unsuspecting wrecked physiological reactions contribute to CH.

 

[Stewie]

*you're poking around...

 

[EspenMuskelbunt1]

Take a peek-a-boo at AR45 (androgen receptor-45) splice variants in cardiomyocytes. See if they're considered a negative regulator of full-lenght androgen receptors that limit hypertrophy of the heart. Cardiac hypertrophy isn't specific to growth factors, alone. While you're fulfilling the queries of AR45. Take a gander at hypoxia-inducible factors (HIFs), particularly HIF-1α and HIF-2α. See what their relationship is with cardiac hypertrophy. Think undiagnosed/uncontrolled sleep apnea when your poking around in that arena. A-many of unsuspecting wrecked physiological reactions contribute to CH.

Thanks for reply!

 

[specter]

Hi guys! Want some information from smart and knowledgeable people here.
Today I was at a cardiologist, for a check-up at the heart. I am a participant for a science and research project around Steroids/PED's for Oslo University Hospital. Last time I was for a check-up, was 4 years ago, and today we saw that my heart is exactly the same, have not changed at all.
Normal pumping capacity and function (ejection fraction between 50-55) and normal left ventricular hypertrophy/ 12mm wall thickness which is around the same as people who do endurance sports (Skiing, bike, running etc), athlete's heart.

I had a disagrement with the cardiologist, because he said that steroids and growth hormone directely enlarged the heart, because that also is a muscle. But I said thats not necessary true, IF we control blood pressure and heart rate while on steroids. So yes, it can indirectly, but not directly I told him.
And the answer was in my results, because I have been on steroids last 4 years, growth hormone for over 2 years, but I control my blood pressure and heart rate and I was not suprised my heart did not changed, but he believed it was because genetics
So my question, is there any way steroids/GH enlarge the heart, if we make sure we have great blood pressure and heart rate?

Sounds like the same study im a part of here in Denmark, its being funded by Novo Nordisk and i know one of the Doctors behind the study, they started in Denmark with a 1 phase where they run all the tests on a 100 people and then they weed out the tests that gives them least knowledge and data and then they do a phase 2 where they pull in 1000 subjects men and women. I think its being done as a joined study by both Denmark, Norway and Sweden to look at the "damage" being done by steroid use. One guy i know who took part in the study he was told his plauqe score on the heart was like a 72 year old man..

 

[specter]

Hi guys! Want some information from smart and knowledgeable people here.
Today I was at a cardiologist, for a check-up at the heart. I am a participant for a science and research project around Steroids/PED's for Oslo University Hospital. Last time I was for a check-up, was 4 years ago, and today we saw that my heart is exactly the same, have not changed at all.
Normal pumping capacity and function (ejection fraction between 50-55) and normal left ventricular hypertrophy/ 12mm wall thickness which is around the same as people who do endurance sports (Skiing, bike, running etc), athlete's heart.

I had a disagrement with the cardiologist, because he said that steroids and growth hormone directely enlarged the heart, because that also is a muscle. But I said thats not necessary true, IF we control blood pressure and heart rate while on steroids. So yes, it can indirectly, but not directly I told him.
And the answer was in my results, because I have been on steroids last 4 years, growth hormone for over 2 years, but I control my blood pressure and heart rate and I was not suprised my heart did not changed, but he believed it was because genetics
So my question, is there any way steroids/GH enlarge the heart, if we make sure we have great blood pressure and heart rate?

15 years here on/off roids, plenty of high doses, long runs etc
Doctor told med i have close to 0 plauqe, my heart was only very slightly enlarged like its not even close to being anything dangerous or anything they would look at, also i had 0 LVH and heart was pumping like it should.. if i hadent told him about my abuse he would never had guessed i used roids. In the beginning of my AAS journey i read alot from Dante and he keept hitting on the whole "check your bloodpressure and keep it in check" so first thing i did was buy a bloodpressure machine and start looking at what could be used to keep bloodpressure in check other then the usual do cardio and loose weight.

 

[USA11]

Testosterone in range is cardio friendly. But when you start talking about supra-physiological levels all that goes out the window. It has been shown to cause heart enlargement when used at high amounts.

Can we “try” to mitigate those risk by keeping BP in check, inflammation down and controlling RHR and lifestyle factors around it? Sure.

But let’s not kid ourselves- our body is like an engine. It we take a stock engine and put a super charger on it that engine will break down quicker. You can try to slow that down with high performance parts and maintenance. But it will pre-maturely wear. Our body is no different.

Testosterone and the Heart - PMC

Testosterone (T) has a number of important effects on the cardiovascular system. In men, T levels begin to decrease after age 40, and this decrease has been associated with an increase in all-cause mortality and cardiovascular (CV) risk. Low T ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The role of androgens in pressure overload myocardial hypertrophy - PMC

Pressure overload hypertrophy of the left ventricle is a common result of many cardiovascular diseases. Androgens show anabolic effects in skeletal muscles, but also in myocardial hypertrophy. We carefully reviewed literature regarding possible ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Google Scholar

scholar.google.com

This nailed it . Eventually in the long wrong steroids do cause damage to the heart

 

[Big Dave Smith]

Testosterone in range is cardio friendly. But when you start talking about supra-physiological levels all that goes out the window. It has been shown to cause heart enlargement when used at high amounts.

Can we “try” to mitigate those risk by keeping BP in check, inflammation down and controlling RHR and lifestyle factors around it? Sure.

But let’s not kid ourselves- our body is like an engine. It we take a stock engine and put a super charger on it that engine will break down quicker. You can try to slow that down with high performance parts and maintenance. But it will pre-maturely wear. Our body is no different.

Testosterone and the Heart - PMC

Testosterone (T) has a number of important effects on the cardiovascular system. In men, T levels begin to decrease after age 40, and this decrease has been associated with an increase in all-cause mortality and cardiovascular (CV) risk. Low T ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The role of androgens in pressure overload myocardial hypertrophy - PMC

Pressure overload hypertrophy of the left ventricle is a common result of many cardiovascular diseases. Androgens show anabolic effects in skeletal muscles, but also in myocardial hypertrophy. We carefully reviewed literature regarding possible ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Google Scholar

scholar.google.com

The issue with these studies, and most arguments, is that 99% are correlations with no causation.

So much time invested in associations, but almost no “why?”.

If blood pressure and heart rate are controlled, LVH and overall cardiomegaly are most likely reduced to a negligible effect.

The issue is that most people spend no time, or not enough time focusing on this. Most people start off as casual users, learn more in 3-5 years of using, but cause some (or a lot) of damage before they wise up.

Someone on a first cycle who immediately nips these situations is likely to reduce risks by an enormous percentage.

 

[PRorER]

Testosterone in range is cardio friendly. But when you start talking about supra-physiological levels all that goes out the window. It has been shown to cause heart enlargement when used at high amounts.

These are great studies to use as starters in this discussion but two things stood out to me. First being there’s no info regarding family history, if someone had a hereditary history of any heart related disease would that accelerate the likelihood of an adverse event even if BP and HR are kept within normal ranges? The second being the use of hypogonadal men with higher BMIs. Would a high BMI in a person with more muscle mass result in any changes in heart decline? Obviously these are questions we may never know but would be beneficial in the bodybuilding world. Definitely very interested to see the results of the study when they are published

 

[nothuman]

The issue with these studies, and most arguments, is that 99% are correlations with no causation.

So much time invested in associations, but almost no “why?”.

If blood pressure and heart rate are controlled, LVH and overall cardiomegaly are most likely reduced to a negligible effect.

The issue is that most people spend no time, or not enough time focusing on this. Most people start off as casual users, learn more in 3-5 years of using, but cause some (or a lot) of damage before they wise up.

Someone on a first cycle who immediately nips these situations is likely to reduce risks by an enormous percentage.

It would be much more interesting if they did the same studies but had half the the steroid users manage their blood pressure throughout, making sure their systolic was below 120 at all times, and the other half not doing this. It would be considered “unethical”, but it would certainly be a lot more intriguing to see the results of that over a 2-10 year period.

 

[Big Dave Smith]

While this is a joke, it’s why correlations do no not equal causations.

Nuances matter, so even if the correlation is accurate, the “why” could destroy the association.

Women had no testicular cancer till about 2020. Why are they suffering with such high incidences of testicular cancer since 2020?

 

[bbxtreme]

The issue with these studies, and most arguments, is that 99% are correlations with no causation.

So much time invested in associations, but almost no “why?”.

If blood pressure and heart rate are controlled, LVH and overall cardiomegaly are most likely reduced to a negligible effect.

The issue is that most people spend no time, or not enough time focusing on this. Most people start off as casual users, learn more in 3-5 years of using, but cause some (or a lot) of damage before they wise up.

Someone on a first cycle who immediately nips these situations is likely to reduce risks by an enormous percentage.

These are great studies to use as starters in this discussion but two things stood out to me. First being there’s no info regarding family history, if someone had a hereditary history of any heart related disease would that accelerate the likelihood of an adverse event even if BP and HR are kept within normal ranges? The second being the use of hypogonadal men with higher BMIs. Would a high BMI in a person with more muscle mass result in any changes in heart decline? Obviously these are questions we may never know but would be beneficial in the bodybuilding world. Definitely very interested to see the results of the study when they are published

I agree the studies are flawed in that regard for sure. Unfortunately this is what most doctors will cling to when you try to have this discussion with them as I have tried with many of them.

When having a discussion with someone it’s always good to know what they will base their argument on.

What we come back to again as always in this sport is that we must rely heavily on experience as there is nobody putting millions into true research that needs to be done on these topics that covers all parameters.

As I said in my initial post as it’s my belief and why I take as much as I do- I believe most of this can be mitigated by controlling CRP, inflammation, BP and health markers. But I am also not delusional enough to think that I can blast gear and not have potential risk down the road, nor should any of us not be aware of that risk. Everything has a cost in life.

 

[Mute]

Testosterone in range is cardio friendly. But when you start talking about supra-physiological levels all that goes out the window. It has been shown to cause heart enlargement when used at high amounts.

Can we “try” to mitigate those risk by keeping BP in check, inflammation down and controlling RHR and lifestyle factors around it? Sure.

But let’s not kid ourselves- our body is like an engine. It we take a stock engine and put a super charger on it that engine will break down quicker. You can try to slow that down with high performance parts and maintenance. But it will pre-maturely wear. Our body is no different.

Testosterone and the Heart - PMC

Testosterone (T) has a number of important effects on the cardiovascular system. In men, T levels begin to decrease after age 40, and this decrease has been associated with an increase in all-cause mortality and cardiovascular (CV) risk. Low T ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The role of androgens in pressure overload myocardial hypertrophy - PMC

Pressure overload hypertrophy of the left ventricle is a common result of many cardiovascular diseases. Androgens show anabolic effects in skeletal muscles, but also in myocardial hypertrophy. We carefully reviewed literature regarding possible ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Google Scholar

scholar.google.com

Basic yet extreme analogy that really Simplifies how the body works and how easily we can derail ourselves if not taking the proper precautions.

 

[Big Dave Smith]

I agree the studies are flawed in that regard for sure. Unfortunately this is what most doctors will cling to when you try to have this discussion with them as I have tried with many of them.

When having a discussion with someone it’s always good to know what they will base their argument on.

What we come back to again as always in this sport is that we must rely heavily on experience as there is nobody putting millions into true research that needs to be done on these topics that covers all parameters.

As I said in my initial post as it’s my belief and why I take as much as I do- I believe most of this can be mitigated by controlling CRP, inflammation, BP and health markers. But I am also not delusional enough to think that I can blast gear and not have potential risk down the road, nor should any of us not be aware of that risk. Everything has a cost in life.

A huge flaw is when people lean on “the science”, but it’s not really “the science”. They’re leaning on biased interpretations, often based upon a lack of critical thinking skills. People associate “the science” with some loosely collected data interpreted by someone else, who often isn’t qualified (or questioned) to form any conclusions at all.

OR if a conclusion is reached, such as “testosterone is associated with LVH”, they immediately assumed testosterone is the cause and LVH is the outcome… but if we know “testosterone increases blood pressure and heart rate by increasing blood viscosity, stimulation of the nervous system, altered fluid dynamics by impacting aldosterone and electrolytes, etc”, then the cause is actually blood pressure.

If more decisions were made based upon causation, that’d be more accurate science.

 

[PRorER]

A huge flaw is when people lean on “the science”, but it’s not really “the science”. They’re leaning on biased interpretations, often based upon a lack of critical thinking skills. People associate “the science” with some loosely collected data interpreted by someone else, who often isn’t qualified (or questioned) to form any conclusions at all.

OR if a conclusion is reached, such as “testosterone is associated with LVH”, they immediately assumed testosterone is the cause and LVH is the outcome… but if we know “testosterone increases blood pressure and heart rate by increasing blood viscosity, stimulation of the nervous system, altered fluid dynamics by impacting aldosterone and electrolytes, etc”, then the cause is actually blood pressure.

If more decisions were made based upon causation, that’d be more accurate science.

Just goes to show that critical thinking and interpretation is important when viewing these and any study. Just because it’s in in scientific literature doesn’t mean there’s no bias, flaws, etc

 

[bbxtreme]

Just goes to show that critical thinking and interpretation is important when viewing these and any study. Just because it’s in in scientific literature doesn’t mean there’s no bias, flaws, etc

Sadly many studies are done to confirm a bias belief or to sell more of X drug. It doesn’t make for an objective study.

In this case the doctor and researcher would argue the testosterone was the “root cause” of the elevated BP, inflammation and processes that “truly” led to the LVH.

If only the human body was that black and white.