Carbing up - water, sodium, and carb manipulation - too full or slightly flat?

[AWN2004]

I know this topic has been beaten to death on various boards but I thought I would kind of open one back up after listening to a couple people talk about this.

Two people I heard describe the same way of approaching this were Mark Dugdale and Dorian Yates. What they were talking about isn't anything people have not done in the past but after reading something Magnum posted, its starting to sink in a little bit.

Both of the guys talked about loading heavily on the first day of carb up followed by a moderate day and then almost back to the contest diet the last. You're not really training those last days so the glycogen stores are not going anywhere. All of this I knew about but then it was something that Dorian said and then something I remembered Magnum saying that made me think that maybe these guys were on to something. Dorian was asked a question during a recent seminar about how he got that grainy look he was noted for having. He responded that it was a combo of dense muscle mass from years of heavy training and then being very lean. It's what he said next that made me think. Dorian stated he purposely came in slightly flat which lead to a much greater degree of separation. Magnum mentioned almost the exact same type of scenario where one guy comes in super full and thinks hes in shape and the other slightly flatter guy will appear much harder on stage. Looking back at Dugdale at times, his legs in particular, are very hard but with a very high degree of separation.

I guess many, including myself, are used to seeing or using a method where you are ramping up carbs for several days followed by this strange quasi no water/sodium stage which pretty much makes loading carbs into the muscle impossible. The water intake was kept high according to Dorian along with a decent amount of sodium. It just makes sense to me more so now that had pictures to match with the methods. This just proves I'm slow as I should have been paying more attention in the first place.

I'm just qurious to see what some people think about this in terms of making sure, even if slightly flat, you are full to a point thats not blurring muscle defenition even if its not as full as you would like to be. Does that make sense? I'm hoping maybe Mag or Shelby will talk about this a little.

 

[Shelby]

Caucasians usually have to choose either full or hard... it's not often you see a white dude that is both.
Generally speaking I think white guys look better hard than full.

I'm 100% sure that didn't answer your question, but I'm also 100% sure that I don't understand exactly what your question is

 

[b-boy]

I personally have always thought my body did best with a shitload the last 24 hours, I got just enough fullness and pump to make my muscles push against my skin but in no way near spillover. so slightly flat has always did best for me.

 

[AWN2004]

Caucasians usually have to choose either full or hard... it's not often you see a white dude that is both.
Generally speaking I think white guys look better hard than full.

I'm 100% sure that didn't answer your question, but I'm also 100% sure that I don't understand exactly what your question is

Yeah man I rambled. I guess what I meant to say was this: Carb heavy the first day and then back it down instead of up like a traditional carb load and come in slightly flatter. I know everyone is different but maybe thats a better way of doing things. At least for me it seems. Just seeing if people have done it this way and what were the results.

 

[Shelby]

Yeah man I rambled. I guess what I meant to say was this: Carb heavy the first day and then back it down instead of up like a traditional carb load and come in slightly flatter. I know everyone is different but maybe thats a better way of doing things. At least for me it seems. Just seeing if people have done it this way and what were the results.

Yes, lots of individual differences and also depends on how lean someone is.

I think what b-boy mentioned would be best for someone that wasn't exactly as lean as they should be going into the final week.

Me personally I think I look better harder and a bit flat vs. fuller but this has more to do with water and sodium manipulations than carb loading.

 

[mental1]

I think this makes sense to me as well. I used a similar type of approach for nationals. I think we will do things a little different this next time---but it will be similar to what your talking about AWN2004. I don't think you need ALOT of carbs...just the right amount! ;-)

 

[Max32]

I will say this, the worst thing you can do is cut water/use a diuretic while still eating/loading....the end result will be less subq AND intramuscular water, flat look, with a bigger waist...but hell, at least your face is sucked in, LOL

Me personally, I will be keeping everything pretty much just the way it is going into jrs, and not change anything drastic, especially with water...if I look full, grainy, vascular at 3 wks out with striations in my glutes and on little carbs relatively speaking, why carb load all that much? My new mantra is if it ain't broke don't fix it...overthinking the last wk is the single biggest reason bbuilders have such an issue peaking and complaining..."oh I looked better 2 days out, or 2 days later..." I am guilty of this myself

 

[b-boy]

Yes, lots of individual differences and also depends on how lean someone is.

I think what b-boy mentioned would be best for someone that wasn't exactly as lean as they should be going into the final week.

Me personally I think I look better harder and a bit flat vs. fuller but this has more to do with water and sodium manipulations than carb loading.

actually with a shitload the leaner you are the better it is (really with anything that is the case) when someone isn't very lean then most people try and compensate with diuretics (not a good idea).

 

[Shelby]

actually with a shitload the leaner you are the better it is (really with anything that is the case) .

Yes but all I was saying is that if you're not lean enough, then don't carb load... use a mild shitload, if anything.

 

[AWN2004]

actually with a shitload the leaner you are the better it is (really with anything that is the case) when someone isn't very lean then most people try and compensate with diuretics (not a good idea).

That is something I never understood. You can't fix something in 24 hours that should have been done over the course of several weeks.

I understand the concept of shitloading but it's something I would never try unless I had an expert (Skip or someone like that) helping me. Being ready early is the key to any prep. The leaner you are earlier in the prep, the easier shit is going to be at the end. I'd like to strive for that eventualy. I'm fairly carb sensitive which is why the mentioned methods by Dorian and company seem logical for myself.

 

[b-boy]

Yes but all I was saying is that if you're not lean enough, then don't carb load... use a mild shitload, if anything.

gotcha, and yes i totally agree

 

[chris250]

Everyone is different...Everybody is different...Every person looks different at different stages..What one person do, wont work for someone else, and no results will ever be the same...

What you do for one show wont work for another show, because you will have dieted differently...and your body will be different from the last show, (more muscle, less muscle, leaner, not as lean ,ect, ect) So you can never do the same thing twice and expect the same results...So what Im I getting at...??? Some people will look better with more fullness, and some people look better with less fullness, maybe even slightly flat or actully pretty damn flat...Some people can just do there normal diet, not cut water, keep the carbs low, cut the water out saturday morning come in looking killer and blow people away...Other people will deplete, cut water, do this, do that, and come in looking like crap and wonder what the hell happen ???

What do I think is best ??? I personally think that the best thing to do, isnt a whole lot...Just do your normal diet, maybe carb up some on Wends (like you said AWN2004) slightly cut back the carbs Thurs and Friday (maybe even go low carb on friday) maybe cut down water on friday, cut it out saturday morning and hope for the best ...LOL !!! Just keep it simple (or KISS) ...Honeslty if you do that, you will probably look better, cause you are slightly flat, and the lines are going to be super deep, and you wont be holding alot of water, but full enough to feel your muscles when you pose and look full enough on stage to look big and ripped, but not bloated...Simple is always your best bet to come in looking your best...Every show is a learning experiance to grow on and to look better at your next show...

chris

 

[chris250]

Yes but all I was saying is that if you're not lean enough, then don't carb load... use a mild shitload, if anything.

If your not lean enough skip the show and do one a month later or so...LOL !!! Or dont be upset when you dont win !!! LOL !!!

 

[PHIL HERNON]

YES!

If your not lean enough skip the show and do one a month later or so...LOL !!! Or dont be upset when you dont win !!! LOL !!!

Note to everyone.......good advice.

 

[Magnum]

Maybe I need to clarify or maybe not, but I don't want anyone here to think that I believe people should step on stage in any where near a flat condition. Like I said there is a very fine line that you tread and even if you would spill a little it might not even be noticable, but I like to err on the side of caution and not have my guys over do it as far as food goes. Since I do not do a carb up this advise does not actually pertain to me too much anyway.

Too each his own, everyone has their way of doing things, but I also will give my honest opinion too. IMO shitloading is way too much of a gamble. You will not see any of the pros sit down and eat a bunch of junk before a show thinking that it is going to produce a miracle. Don't get me wrong, a piece of pizza or a burger and fries after the prejudging is not going to do any damage, but have personally seen guys eat a bunch of junk food before a show and look terrible on stage from it.

Think about it, nowadays most people miss their peak on stage. You can almost bet money on that fact. Diuretics, carb up, carb down, sodium up and down, drink 3 gallons of water, take laxitives ect. These guys are beating themselves before they even get on stage and that sucks. Most people look better 2 weeks out, but they never learn and they never will even when the answer is right in front of them.

 

[emeric delczeg]

I know this topic has been beaten to death on various boards but I thought I would kind of open one back up after listening to a couple people talk about this.

Two people I heard describe the same way of approaching this were Mark Dugdale and Dorian Yates. What they were talking about isn't anything people have not done in the past but after reading something Magnum posted, its starting to sink in a little bit.

Both of the guys talked about loading heavily on the first day of carb up followed by a moderate day and then almost back to the contest diet the last. You're not really training those last days so the glycogen stores are not going anywhere. All of this I knew about but then it was something that Dorian said and then something I remembered Magnum saying that made me think that maybe these guys were on to something. Dorian was asked a question during a recent seminar about how he got that grainy look he was noted for having. He responded that it was a combo of dense muscle mass from years of heavy training and then being very lean. It's what he said next that made me think. Dorian stated he purposely came in slightly flat which lead to a much greater degree of separation. Magnum mentioned almost the exact same type of scenario where one guy comes in super full and thinks hes in shape and the other slightly flatter guy will appear much harder on stage. Looking back at Dugdale at times, his legs in particular, are very hard but with a very high degree of separation.

I guess many, including myself, are used to seeing or using a method where you are ramping up carbs for several days followed by this strange quasi no water/sodium stage which pretty much makes loading carbs into the muscle impossible. The water intake was kept high according to Dorian along with a decent amount of sodium. It just makes sense to me more so now that had pictures to match with the methods. This just proves I'm slow as I should have been paying more attention in the first place.

I'm just qurious to see what some people think about this in terms of making sure, even if slightly flat, you are full to a point thats not blurring muscle defenition even if its not as full as you would like to be. Does that make sense? I'm hoping maybe Mag or Shelby will talk about this a little.

You need to experiment 2 to 3 weeks out, the best was working for me (last day before the show) watermelon with little salt.

 

[PHIL HERNON]

YES

Maybe I need to clarify or maybe not, but I don't want anyone here to think that I believe people should step on stage in any where near a flat condition. Like I said there is a very fine line that you tread and even if you would spill a little it might not even be noticable, but I like to err on the side of caution and not have my guys over do it as far as food goes. Since I do not do a carb up this advise does not actually pertain to me too much anyway.

Too each his own, everyone has their way of doing things, but I also will give my honest opinion too. IMO shitloading is way too much of a gamble. You will not see any of the pros sit down and eat a bunch of junk before a show thinking that it is going to produce a miracle. Don't get me wrong, a piece of pizza or a burger and fries after the prejudging is not going to do any damage, but have personally seen guys eat a bunch of junk food before a show and look terrible on stage from it.

Think about it, nowadays most people miss their peak on stage. You can almost bet money on that fact. Diuretics, carb up, carb down, sodium up and down, drink 3 gallons of water, take laxitives ect. These guys are beating themselves before they even get on stage and that sucks. Most people look better 2 weeks out, but they never learn and they never will even when the answer is right in front of them.

A voice of reason.....these guys have no idea what it takes to step on a pro stage and be SPOT ON......you just cant do that and look good...these guys need to see pics of what you did to get your wife in shape.....you train Pros.....you and I know whats up.........its just humorous to see all these people talking about all of this crazy stuff..........amazing.

 

[Max32]

The crazy part to me Phil is when you see guys who have reached their peak to get their card, yet barely ever are able to match that perfect match of size, fullness, and conditioning....typically, I would venture to guess it is bc they are looking for someone to take all the guesswork out of it for them so they do not think for themselves, LOL....one exception to this rule thus far has been Heath...I mean hell, the last time Cutler really "peaked" was 2001....crazy

 

[b-boy]

Maybe I need to clarify or maybe not, but I don't want anyone here to think that I believe people should step on stage in any where near a flat condition. Like I said there is a very fine line that you tread and even if you would spill a little it might not even be noticable, but I like to err on the side of caution and not have my guys over do it as far as food goes. Since I do not do a carb up this advise does not actually pertain to me too much anyway.

Too each his own, everyone has their way of doing things, but I also will give my honest opinion too. IMO shitloading is way too much of a gamble. You will not see any of the pros sit down and eat a bunch of junk before a show thinking that it is going to produce a miracle. Don't get me wrong, a piece of pizza or a burger and fries after the prejudging is not going to do any damage, but have personally seen guys eat a bunch of junk food before a show and look terrible on stage from it.

Think about it, nowadays most people miss their peak on stage. You can almost bet money on that fact. Diuretics, carb up, carb down, sodium up and down, drink 3 gallons of water, take laxitives ect. These guys are beating themselves before they even get on stage and that sucks. Most people look better 2 weeks out, but they never learn and they never will even when the answer is right in front of them.

its not intended to produce a miracle! its intended to fill enough to make the muscle push against the skin, its not a miracle worker at all, craig titus has done it, and chad nicholls has used it on some people. Its actually a very safe and conservative approach to carb loading, you don't have enough time for your body to produce negative results, if i have a show saturday morning and start shitloading at 10pm friday night for maybe 3 meals, then 1 meal and some junk snacking before prejudging, how in the hell can you fuck that up, theres just not enough time...LOL but hey im def. no expert and def not a pro, my education is ongoing in the art of bodybuilding, its all about quenching my thirst for knowledge, thats why i work with different people yr. in and yr. out, i want to learn from everyone, my professor this year ought to be a very good one

 

[PHIL HERNON]

Well

its not intended to produce a miracle! its intended to fill enough to make the muscle push against the skin, its not a miracle worker at all, craig titus has done it, and chad nicholls has used it on some people. Its actually a very safe and conservative approach to carb loading, you don't have enough time for your body to produce negative results, if i have a show saturday morning and start shitloading at 10pm friday night for maybe 3 meals, then 1 meal and some junk snacking before prejudging, how in the hell can you fuck that up, theres just not enough time...LOL but hey im def. no expert and def not a pro, my education is ongoing in the art of bodybuilding, its all about quenching my thirst for knowledge, thats why i work with different people yr. in and yr. out, i want to learn from everyone, my professor this year ought to be a very good one

Then again, I cant argue with the package you bring.....but maybe you are a genetic FREAK!!! ANYTHING works with you..........