Cardiotoxicity in rabbits after long-term nandrolone decanoate administration

[b_cornelius]

And in another study, top scientists gave 6 dogs Finaplix.

Four of the dogs started humping each other in the butt,
One dog bit a research assistant,
And one dog was just a strong dog
The End.

Sounds like a funny story, but so go the interpretations of many loose-end studies. Maybe referencing would make it more factual? Or is that truthful? What's the difference?

 

[maldorf]

All I can say is that I developed cardiomyopathy bad enough I had a ef of 30. I went off all steroids and after being clean for 11 months my echo was normal and ef up to 60.

 

[Stewie]

The human equivalent dose from rabbit to human would be as follows on 10mgND/kg:

·Rabbit=12R

·Human=37H


*90.718kg=200Lbs man*

10mg/ND(12R/37H)=3.2432432432>•90.718kg=294.22054054mg or rounded too 294mg of nandrolone decanoate for a 200Lb man.

 

[Ehren]

The human equivalent dose from rabbit to human would be as follows on 10mgND/kg:

·Rabbit=12R

·Human=37H


*90.718kg=200Lbs man*

10mg/ND(12R/37H)=3.2432432432>•90.718kg=294.22054054mg or rounded too 294mg of nandrolone decanoate for a 200Lb man.

So, 588mg per week...that's even scarier considering some of the doses people run.

 

[b_cornelius]

I'd just hope that there is some sort of sincere effort to get to the bottom of this someday.

Every once in a great while somebody drops some simple study particularly implicating Nandrolone in some sort of Angio-terrorism. Then a few bodybuilders go ape$h!t on Nandrolone.

There are few credible studies done on such steroids, and we can't draw conclusions on these very very few.

I am not sure about the politics of such studies, nor can everybody be sure of the quality.

Furthermore, if NANDROLONE is the culprit of such terror, is this something that can be rectified? What sort of mechanisms are different than testosterone? Is this particular to Nandrolone itself? Or does this also extend to other Nortestosterone derivatives?

So one other simple study had similar conclusions, now like ten years later we have a bit more of confirmation. Seems like we're making real progress here. heeh...

 

[gotgame]

I posted this many years ago about nandrolone ( probably 2006ish) on AF as so many people were saying how safe it was and not sure if some people posted it independently or ran with what I said but i personally feel people are singling out nandrolone without good cause.

Well ok not that that it doesnt do that its just that many studies are done on that hence people say its the DECA. Not that simple..its the AAS. Other studies done on other compounds had similar cardio effects its just that nandrolone is approved for human use so many studies have easier access to it.

Let me say this again yes nandrolone its cardiotoxic. Yes Tren, EQ, higher then HRT dose test, drol, etc etc ETC are all very likely cardiotoxic through a few different mechs but the one I keep feeling is fairly preventable is activation of the RAS. Hence my frequent recommendation of taking either losartan or an ACEi with cycle to both control BP and interupt the RAS. By decreasing the afterload you will also decrease the stimulus for fucked up hypertrophy but thats just an added bonus.

Keep dose LOW. Know what you are actually taking. Be mindful of contamination ( heavy metals activating myocardial fibrosis). Keep BP in check and take either and ARB or ACEi.

While theres more literature on deca i do feel that almost all will cause it with things like tren likely being much much worse. And yes Ive actually seen the myocardial fibrosis which was AAS induced and not related to an MI.

 

[devenidas]

Npp takes my resting heart rate from 75 to around 102 so that shit can't be good

600-700mg I believe, kinda scary lol

I hate reading things like this

I really really REALLY hate reading this about NPP lol

 

[nothuman]

I posted this many years ago about nandrolone ( probably 2006ish) on AF as so many people were saying how safe it was and not sure if some people posted it independently or ran with what I said but i personally feel people are singling out nandrolone without good cause.

Well ok not that that it doesnt do that its just that many studies are done on that hence people say its the DECA. Not that simple..its the AAS. Other studies done on other compounds had similar cardio effects its just that nandrolone is approved for human use so many studies have easier access to it.

Let me say this again yes nandrolone its cardiotoxic. Yes Tren, EQ, higher then HRT dose test, drol, etc etc ETC are all very likely cardiotoxic through a few different mechs but the one I keep feeling is fairly preventable is activation of the RAS. Hence my frequent recommendation of taking either losartan or an ACEi with cycle to both control BP and interupt the RAS. By decreasing the afterload you will also decrease the stimulus for fucked up hypertrophy but thats just an added bonus.

Keep dose LOW. Know what you are actually taking. Be mindful of contamination ( heavy metals activating myocardial fibrosis). Keep BP in check and take either and ARB or ACEi.

While theres more literature on deca i do feel that almost all will cause it with things like tren likely being much much worse. And yes Ive actually seen the myocardial fibrosis which was AAS induced and not related to an MI.

What have you seen from people using nandrolone as far as heart rate is concerned?

 

[maldorf]

What have you seen from people using nandrolone as far as heart rate is concerned?

Back when I developed cardiomyopathy from taking steroids my resting heart rate in the morning was 120 bpm. That is what made me go to the doctor. It slowly must have crept up there because I didn't seem to notice it getting higher until it hit that point.

 

[gotgame]

What have you seen from people using nandrolone as far as heart rate is concerned?

Honestly its not something I normally ask or a correlation that ive seen on the boards. A lot of guys run stims, t3 etc so ive never linked the two. When i see cardiac CTAs on guys I beta block them first with about 100mg metoprolol and when cardiac MRI is done some peoples HR goes up just based on being in the magnet in a close space, i happen to like it when their HR is higher as for MRI it makes the scan go faster.

Remember in real life ive only seen 2 cases of legit cardiac fibrosis from AAS and a handful more on the boards after reviewing their images. its been reported a few times in the literature but id imagine it would be a lot more if some of the guys here were scanned.

The issue though in diagnosis is its difficult to call it unless the coronaries are also clean which many guys here probably arent, as more commonly you see the delayed enhancement post MI fibrosis.

Uhhhh ok i just went on a tangent... damnit GG!

 

[gotgame]

Back when I developed cardiomyopathy from taking steroids my resting heart rate in the morning was 120 bpm. That is what made me go to the doctor. It slowly must have crept up there because I didn't seem to notice it getting higher until it hit that point.

What was your EF when you had it checked around that time? It may have been creeping up to try to keep your CO steady.

 

[nothuman]

Back when I developed cardiomyopathy from taking steroids my resting heart rate in the morning was 120 bpm. That is what made me go to the doctor. It slowly must have crept up there because I didn't seem to notice it getting higher until it hit that point.

Was this before your heart attack? (whose ass you seem to be kicking right now btw!)

 

[Ulamalop]

Penicillin kills rabbits...seems like kind of a dumb choice of animal to use to study things relating to humans.

 

[maldorf]

Was this before your heart attack? (whose ass you seem to be kicking right now btw!)

Yes, it was about 4 years before my clot/heart attack. I had developed idiopathic cardiomyopathy, that's when they cant say for sure what caused it. After going off all steroids for about 11 months or so my function was back to normal and had a normal echocardiogram. At its worst my ejection fraction was down around 30% and the doc said my walls were akinetic, meaning they were really stiff and not moving much. Then I got stupid and went back on again and about 4 years later suffered that blot clot that was a 100% blockage of my right main coronary artery. The docs were surprised I lived, said the blood levels of whatever it is they check to see if you had a heart attack were higher than they have ever seen anyone live through.

I remember our member on here named Chris that had the same thing happen to him, but then later on I think he had more heart trouble and passed on. Im glad to be alive. Thanks for the compliment. If I had gone on insisting on living the same lifestyle after my heart attack I would have died many years ago.

 

[maldorf]

Penicillin kills rabbits...seems like kind of a dumb choice of animal to use to study things relating to humans.

It is better than the alternative of testing right away on humans. I guess they could test on people sitting on death row!?

 

[maldorf]

What was your EF when you had it checked around that time? It may have been creeping up to try to keep your CO steady.

Well, prior to having that crazy high resting heart rate I had never had an echo because I was a normal healthy male aged about 33 years old. When I had the fast heart rate I had my first one and EF was about 30%. Went off all the steroids but kept lifting. My EF got back up to 55% or so after 11 months. It is pretty obvious to me what had caused my problems, but at the time I was so addicted to bodybuilding/steroids that I told myself I probably just had a virus or something. I went back on once the scan came back normal. Mistake.

 

[gotgame]

Well, prior to having that crazy high resting heart rate I had never had an echo because I was a normal healthy male aged about 33 years old. When I had the fast heart rate I had my first one and EF was about 30%. Went off all the steroids but kept lifting. My EF got back up to 55% or so after 11 months. It is pretty obvious to me what had caused my problems, but at the time I was so addicted to bodybuilding/steroids that I told myself I probably just had a virus or something. I went back on once the scan came back normal. Mistake.

Its also very challenging to diagnosis AAS induced cardiomyopathy because its not something most doctors will ever ask about, not something most patients will talk about, and most doctors will never see it diagnosed because of the patient population and lack of knowing what to look like.

The two cases i diagnosed in the wild was simply because i dont look like the normal person coming into the room to talk and they can tell that I spend a lot of time in the gym ( scrubs dont fit my lats and shoulders well at all). So those two guys were more open to discussing it with me. Once i knew that I was able to make the correct diagnosis. They both got follow ups for two years and both still have the fibrosis but their EF did moderately improve.

I really do think that we would see it much more commonly if many guys on the boards got scanned but thats not practical. You just cant walk in and get a cardiac MRI.

Im glad that discussing this makes a differnence to some guys but sadly it wont for most. They just dont really care or they dont understand. I got a few PMs about losartan- im not saying that it cures or prevents anything its just that theres a good chance it will help but thats just my own educated guess. But i dont see many downsides as most guys are a bit hypertensive on cycle anyway.

People are also thinking that its reversible like an "athletes heart". NO AAS induced cardiomyopathy is generally not nearly as reversible as an athletes heart. Can there be EF improvement and better motion, yes. but rarely does it return to normal. So now you got this issue and later on in life it may become a more signfiicant issue if you throw CV disease on top of that.

Just use responsibly, small doses with proper nutrition and busting your ass in the gym can go a long way. No reason ( unless competing for a living) to be using 1/5th of what is posted.

 

[maldorf]

Its also very challenging to diagnosis AAS induced cardiomyopathy because its not something most doctors will ever ask about, not something most patients will talk about, and most doctors will never see it diagnosed because of the patient population and lack of knowing what to look like.

The two cases i diagnosed in the wild was simply because i dont look like the normal person coming into the room to talk and they can tell that I spend a lot of time in the gym ( scrubs dont fit my lats and shoulders well at all). So those two guys were more open to discussing it with me. Once i knew that I was able to make the correct diagnosis. They both got follow ups for two years and both still have the fibrosis but their EF did moderately improve.

I really do think that we would see it much more commonly if many guys on the boards got scanned but thats not practical. You just cant walk in and get a cardiac MRI.

Im glad that discussing this makes a differnence to some guys but sadly it wont for most. They just dont really care or they dont understand. I got a few PMs about losartan- im not saying that it cures or prevents anything its just that theres a good chance it will help but thats just my own educated guess. But i dont see many downsides as most guys are a bit hypertensive on cycle anyway.

People are also thinking that its reversible like an "athletes heart". NO AAS induced cardiomyopathy is generally not nearly as reversible as an athletes heart. Can there be EF improvement and better motion, yes. but rarely does it return to normal. So now you got this issue and later on in life it may become a more signfiicant issue if you throw CV disease on top of that.

Just use responsibly, small doses with proper nutrition and busting your ass in the gym can go a long way. No reason ( unless competing for a living) to be using 1/5th of what is posted.

Well, in my case my EF got back up to 55%. I asked the cardiologist if the echo was normal and just looking at that echo if he didn't know about my previous trouble would he think that it had always been normal and he said yes. So it appears that it recovered to normal after getting off the steroids for about 1 year.

Not sure if you know it or not but I got back on the steroids after the scan showed it was normal and then had a blood clot about 5 yrs later in my right main coronary and suffered a bad heart attack. I had them do a DNA test on me for clotting and found I have factor 2. We had no idea it was in the family. So the combo of the steroids and that disorder seem to have just about done me in. Here is a link to the thread:
http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...heart-attack-age-38-follow-up-phils-post.html

So now my EF is about 20-25%, last measured about 4+ yrs ago. I am going back in for another echo in March and am hoping my EF has gone up some because my heart rhythm has gotten much better and I suffer less episodes of tachycardia. My defibrillator has only had to go off once, but it saved my life. My EF was below 20% but then an echo about 2 years later showed it up between 20-25%.

 

[DECABEATZ]

VERY INTERESTING STUDY. I NEVER REALLY LIKED DECA ANYHOW AND I KEPT MY DOSAGE NO HIGHER THEN 600MG A WEEK WHEN I DID.

 

[makaveli25]

I've been using test as a base and either deca or npp as my anabolic for the past five years now. Dose goes up and down. Highest I go with npp is 100 mg ed highest I go with deca is 900 mg. Right now I'm running 500 mg of sustanon and 600 mg of deca. I rarely come off I just drop my doses really low. I test my resting heart rate a few times a day I have the galaxy 6 and I also check my blood pressure several times a week I work at a hospital. My resting heart rate stay between 60-80. My blood pressure never goes above 140/90 and that's at my most water logged.

If I use tren my blood pressure sky rockets I get panick attscks. If use equipose I get even worse problems. Orals are out of the question I just can't tolerate them anymore. Test and masteron is a great recomp cycle but doesn't give the round full thick muscles that nandro gives. It's such a versatile compound. I never have problems with blood work. I feel like you need to pick what giv you personally the least amount of sides. If I could afford pharm grade primo I might stop using nandro but i can't.

Point is for me deca does everything I want and I don't get nasty sides like I do with everything else. For me it's healthier then running eq and trend. If I used those as much as I use deca I would of probably had serious issues by now.

I'm 31 I plan on using deca npp until I'm 35 and then I will hopefully be able to start a decent hrt (lighter cycle) program.