Cardiotoxicity in rabbits after long-term nandrolone decanoate administration

[gotgame]

Well, in my case my EF got back up to 55%. I asked the cardiologist if the echo was normal and just looking at that echo if he didn't know about my previous trouble would he think that it had always been normal and he said yes. So it appears that it recovered to normal after getting off the steroids for about 1 year.

Not sure if you know it or not but I got back on the steroids after the scan showed it was normal and then had a blood clot about 5 yrs later in my right main coronary and suffered a bad heart attack. I had them do a DNA test on me for clotting and found I have factor 2. We had no idea it was in the family. So the combo of the steroids and that disorder seem to have just about done me in. Here is a link to the thread:
http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...heart-attack-age-38-follow-up-phils-post.html

So now my EF is about 20-25%, last measured about 4+ yrs ago. I am going back in for another echo in March and am hoping my EF has gone up some because my heart rhythm has gotten much better and I suffer less episodes of tachycardia. My defibrillator has only had to go off once, but it saved my life. My EF was below 20% but then an echo about 2 years later showed it up between 20-25%.

correct, EF and motion can improve often due to the heart finding ways to compensate ( might be through natural stem cells among other things) but commonly the fibrosis is still there. You cant see the fibrosis on an echo. Its sorta like findings ways to work around an injury in the gym, someone observing you ( echo) might not notice your injuried but you are.

clot in right main? Im assuming you mean LEFT main. Or do you mean an ostial right lesion? By factor 2 do you mean your deficient or you have a mutation in? Left main lesions can often kill you immediately without notice.

 

[maldorf]

correct, EF and motion can improve often due to the heart finding ways to compensate ( might be through natural stem cells among other things) but commonly the fibrosis is still there. You cant see the fibrosis on an echo. Its sorta like findings ways to work around an injury in the gym, someone observing you ( echo) might not notice your injuried but you are.

clot in right main? Im assuming you mean LEFT main. Or do you mean an ostial right lesion? By factor 2 do you mean your deficient or you have a mutation in? Left main lesions can often kill you immediately without notice.

By factor 2 I mean a genetic disorder, prothrombin mutation. The clot was blocking 100% of the flow through my right main coronary artery. I watched them clear it out. The whole thing was a blood clot, there wasn't any appreciable plaque buildup and he was able to clear it by just aspiration. No stents were placed, he said the arteries were wide open and he had no stents big enough that would fit anyhow. He had the nurses searching. Im glad I don't have one, didn't really need it. It is a great thing that the clot didn't happen in my left main. Right side only supplies mostly the right ventricle and septum if I am thinking correctly and that's mainly pulmonary which isn't as demanding.

 

[raw33man]

I have came to this conclusion that steroids have side effects

 

[gotgame]

By factor 2 I mean a genetic disorder, prothrombin mutation. The clot was blocking 100% of the flow through my right main coronary artery. I watched them clear it out. The whole thing was a blood clot, there wasn't any appreciable plaque buildup and he was able to clear it by just aspiration. No stents were placed, he said the arteries were wide open and he had no stents big enough that would fit anyhow. He had the nurses searching. Im glad I don't have one, didn't really need it. It is a great thing that the clot didn't happen in my left main. Right side only supplies mostly the right ventricle and septum if I am thinking correctly and that's mainly pulmonary which isn't as demanding.

Well factor 2 issues can both be genetic but one is a deficiency and one is a weird mutation that i forget the number that goes with it but can lead to thrombus formation. Im guessing yours was the latter. That coupled with the potential for AAS to be prothrombogenic obviously wasnt a good combo.

The only reason I questioned right main is thats not a term that is used. Theres a proximal right coronary artery or if its almost immediately at the take off its an ostial lesion but theres only really a left main ( and sometimes not even a left main) not a right main. Im sure you just meant just proximal RCA thrombus. Which is ofcourse MUCH better then left main as you probably wouldnt have made it to hospital with a left main.

Do you know if you are co-dominate? That would have been very beneficial for you in that circumstance.

This is another reason why guys need to keep estrogen under control while on cycle. Not saying yours wasnt but having elevated levels will increase production of clotting factors. its also a reason i recommend many guys to be taking ASA daily ( among other health benefits). While of course it doesnt work directly on clotting it certainly can help with some stuff starting it out.

There was a guy maybe a yr or two ago that had a massive PE on the boards. he was on cycle and his estrogen was ridiculously high despite being on "letro" from a research company. It obviously was fake or way underdosed. About two weeks after he posted those numbers he PM'd me saying was was admitted to hospital with SOB and had large PE. He was on coumadin for a while after that. Its one of the reasons id say it might be more dangerous to have bunk ancillaires then bunk gear.

With you having the factor 2 mutation do they have you taking anything to help with that?

 

[gotgame]

I have came to this conclusion that steroids have side effects

sure they do but you may or may not be surprised about how many guys only really know about the superficial issues. they have no idea about some of this thats why i try to spend the time to discuss the issues, how they may or may not be prevented.

At the very least its informed use. Someone wants to smoke and they know about all the risk...well then oK! but if someone wants to smoke and only knows that it may stain their teeth then i wouldnt called that informed.


Im certainly not saying "dont use" which is what some people jump on these threads and wanna shut it down being like well if your concerned about health issues then just dont use. I think thats a very poor approach and we should be discussing these issues so guys can make informed decisions and use more responsibly.

There are some threads here which seem to get shut down when there are concerns about health related issues and i really wish some things would be more transparent for the younger guys making decisions. When people mention things like high levels of heavy metals from powders used in UG gear it gets brushed under the rug ( threads closed) which prevents people from being informed. Or threads were mentioned about GH folding structure and antibodies and toxins and people were told if you are concerned just use HG which really isnt the approach which should be taken. I am thrilled to see the direction of the HGH testing thread and putting it all out in the open and quite possibly the testing of other things in the future. It may hurt business for some but its better to be honest and open and let people make their own choices.

 

[raw33man]

One thing I have learnt is that NOT MANY will learn from other's mistakes or these studies unless something bad happens to them... dudes be like oh my god fuck Deca, that's just for a day, after 2 weeks they jump on a gram of Deca lol

 

[maldorf]

Well factor 2 issues can both be genetic but one is a deficiency and one is a weird mutation that i forget the number that goes with it but can lead to thrombus formation. Im guessing yours was the latter. That coupled with the potential for AAS to be prothrombogenic obviously wasnt a good combo.

The only reason I questioned right main is thats not a term that is used. Theres a proximal right coronary artery or if its almost immediately at the take off its an ostial lesion but theres only really a left main ( and sometimes not even a left main) not a right main. Im sure you just meant just proximal RCA thrombus. Which is ofcourse MUCH better then left main as you probably wouldnt have made it to hospital with a left main.

Do you know if you are co-dominate? That would have been very beneficial for you in that circumstance.

This is another reason why guys need to keep estrogen under control while on cycle. Not saying yours wasnt but having elevated levels will increase production of clotting factors. its also a reason i recommend many guys to be taking ASA daily ( among other health benefits). While of course it doesnt work directly on clotting it certainly can help with some stuff starting it out.

There was a guy maybe a yr or two ago that had a massive PE on the boards. he was on cycle and his estrogen was ridiculously high despite being on "letro" from a research company. It obviously was fake or way underdosed. About two weeks after he posted those numbers he PM'd me saying was was admitted to hospital with SOB and had large PE. He was on coumadin for a while after that. Its one of the reasons id say it might be more dangerous to have bunk ancillaires then bunk gear.

With you having the factor 2 mutation do they have you taking anything to help with that?

Im not sure if it was right at the ostea or not, but I know by watching the xray that it did look like it was right there where it comes off the trunk.

The doctors did not mention me being co-dominate at the time. I imagine now that the left side has started to perhaps take over some perhaps? I think I was close to death, as my blood pressure was down around 60/40 or so. They had me in the Trendelenburg position and pumped full of dopamine to raise BP/get blood flow to my brain. I was in cardiac ECU for 5 days before they moved me to a regular room with the wireless monitor.

Since the heart attack I have been taking Coumadin and no other events now of course, especially since I no longer take an steroids other than 100mg/wk test through my doc. I also see my Hematologist about once every three months for a phlebotomy.

Yes, mine is a mutation and there is a number associated with that but I cant remember. Prior to this we had no idea it was in the family and both my mother and father have healthy hearts at ages 76 and 78. I had them both tested and it was my mother that carries the trait. I had my oldest daughter tested and she has it. I am going to test my younger one this year. It really appears to me that the mutation is a bit like some gunpowder and they you need a spark to set it off. That spark for me was the steroids and heavy lifting.

 

[maldorf]

One thing I have learnt is that NOT MANY will learn from other's mistakes or these studies unless something bad happens to them... dudes be like oh my god fuck Deca, that's just for a day, after 2 weeks they jump on a gram of Deca lol

I was that way, and count myself lucky that I didn't end up like some others have.

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

Maldorf Ive seen you go around and around and around with this over the last few years....blaming your heart attack on cruising between cycles, and other things. Im not getting on you for this but the data is right in front of you....

1)You have a prothombin disorder for one
2) and this is the very important one.....You were on boards 7 years ago reporting that your hematocrit was 63 and your hemoglobin was 21-22!!! And were asking for advice. That was after one day of blood testing. What was it at other times? 68 hematocrit? 70 hematocrit? What was it after lifting and cardio sessions where you were extremely dehydrated? You are supposed to have a heart attack and blood clot when you have extremely high hematocrit! The data was right in front of you and you didnt take the time to cure the problem. So i dont get why you keep going back and forth with this and telling people cruising is what did it or this or that is what did it. What did it is you have the prothombin disorder coupled with you yourself let your hematocrit get well into the 60's=massive red blood cell accumalation=blood clot. 20 cyclists died of this exact thing years ago ages 16-35 back when they were using EPO and they had blood clot-heart attacks JUST LIKE YOU by letting their hematocrit get too high (some of them dying in their sleep)...so ive never gotten your posts on this board about this unfortunate episode that has befallen you. If it was me I would be so mad at myself for first of all getting cardiomyopathy and going back to juicing and then after getting cardiomyopathy allowing my blood to turn into peanut butter for a lengthy amount of time without thinking "im in serious danger"....the warning shouldnt be "cruising".or.."people who use testosterone etc"....what happened to you is the result of you not taking the bull by the horns and doing something about what your bloodwork data was screaming out to you...to do something about. Im not trying to be a dick here but ive seen you make posts about this time and time again....and the reason for your heart attack is right there in front of you in your very own posts 7-8 years ago about your extremely high hematocrit and hemoglobin.

People who walk around with hematocrits in the 60's for years and years who might get dehydrated at times.....yet try to find options to keep using high amounts of juice (as you were posting about)....I expect them to have heart attacks.

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

I mean this is just a fraction of the cyclists who died from EPO usage who let their hematocrits get into the 60's in the early 2000's


Denis Zanette (Italy)

Died January 11 2003, aged 32

Zanette, right, collapsed after visiting the dentist. Instantly linked to the use of the blood-booster EPO, which led to an outcry in Italy and demands for stricter drug controls.

Marco Ceriani (Italy)

Died May 5, aged 16

An elite amateur, Ceriani experienced a heart attack during a race, was admitted to hospital in a coma, and failed to recover consciousness.

Fabrice Salanson (France)

Died June 3, aged 23

Died of a heart attack in his sleep. Was found by his room mate in their team hotel. Had been about to compete in the Tour of Germany.

Marco Rusconi (Italy)

Died November 14, aged 24

Rusconi was leaving the party of a friend last November when he collapsed and died in a shopping centre car park.

Jose Maria Jimenez (Spain)

Died December 6, aged 32

Died from a heart attack in a psychiatric hospital in Madrid. Had retired two years previously but consistently claimed a comeback was imminent.

Michel Zanoli (Netherlands)

Died December 29, aged 35

Zanoli, who retired in 1997, was 35 when he suffered a fatal heart attack.

Johan Sermon (Belgium)

Died February 15 2004, aged 21

Suffered an apparent heart failure in his sleep. Had reportedly gone to bed early to prepare for an eight-hour training ride.

 

[maldorf]

Maldorf Ive seen you go around and around and around with this over the last few years....blaming your heart attack on cruising between cycles, and other things. Im not getting on you for this but the data is right in front of you....

1)You have a prothombin disorder for one
2) and this is the very important one.....You were on boards 7 years ago reporting that your hematocrit was 63 and your hemoglobin was 21-22!!! And were asking for advice. That was after one day of blood testing. What was it at other times? 68 hematocrit? 70 hematocrit? What was it after lifting and cardio sessions where you were extremely dehydrated? You are supposed to have a heart attack and blood clot when you have extremely high hematocrit! The data was right in front of you and you didnt take the time to cure the problem. So i dont get why you keep going back and forth with this and telling people cruising is what did it or this or that is what did it. What did it is you have the prothombin disorder coupled with you yourself let your hematocrit get well into the 60's=massive red blood cell accumalation=blood clot. 20 cyclists died of this exact thing years ago ages 16-35 back when they were using EPO and they had blood clot-heart attacks JUST LIKE YOU by letting their hematocrit get too high (some of them dying in their sleep)...so ive never gotten your posts on this board about this unfortunate episode that has befallen you. If it was me I would be so mad at myself for first of all getting cardiomyopathy and going back to juicing and then after getting cardiomyopathy allowing my blood to turn into peanut butter for a lengthy amount of time without thinking "im in serious danger"....the warning shouldnt be "cruising".or.."people who use testosterone etc"....what happened to you is the result of you not taking the bull by the horns and doing something about what your bloodwork data was screaming out to you...to do something about. Im not trying to be a dick here but ive seen you make posts about this time and time again....and the reason for your heart attack is right there in front of you in your very own posts 7-8 years ago about your extremely high hematocrit and hemoglobin.

People who walk around with hematocrits in the 60's for years and years who might get dehydrated at times.....yet try to find options to keep using high amounts of juice (as you were posting about)....I expect them to have heart attacks.

My hemoglobin at the time of the clot was actual normal, around 15 or so. It wasn't the hematocrit/hemoglobin that got me but it certainly was a problem. I had done a phlebotomy to get it down. So with that being where it was I don't think that was an issue in this circumstance.

So the problem must have been a combo of the steroids and clotting disorder. Now as far as my behavior goes, there are many others on this site that have and are doing things similar to what I did and some did not live to tell the tale. I come here to in part make an example of myself so that others going down my path think twice about it. Now the clotting disorder I have isn't very common, about 3% of the white population, there may be others on here that have it and don't know it. In fact, going by probability there are some others on here that do have it. We have had a number of members die on here from blood clots, not sure if they had clotting disorders or not. Here is the disorder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prothrombin_G20210A How do you know that you don't have it? Have you been tested? Unless you aren't white you have a 3% chance of having it.

So it wasn't the hemoglobin in my case. Things are much more complicated. I wish it were so simple.

Cruising can be a huge problem too, since most guys cruise on at least 250 mg/wk which is at least 2x what true HRT is. When a person does that the hematocrit never has a chance to go back down after a cycle and in fact rises. I watched my hematocrit rise on a cruise of 250 test. In fact even today as I take just 100 mg/wk HRT through my doctor my hemoglobin rises enough that I need to get a phlebotomy at least once every 3 months. I had my bone marrow tested, etc and the Oncologist/Hematologist could find nothing wrong with me. For many guys it is normal for the hemoglobin to do this on HRT doses, it is well known in the medical community.

So when guys cruise it is putting them in danger. Measuring the hemoglobin once every 3 months would be a good way to keep an eye on. It wasn't until I started cruising that I had high hematocrit. Back when I used to go off completely between cycles I never had an issue.

So tell me, what was the main purpose of your post because I really cant tell for certain?

 

[gotgame]

Im not sure if it was right at the ostea or not, but I know by watching the xray that it did look like it was right there where it comes off the trunk.

The doctors did not mention me being co-dominate at the time. I imagine now that the left side has started to perhaps take over some perhaps? I think I was close to death, as my blood pressure was down around 60/40 or so. They had me in the Trendelenburg position and pumped full of dopamine to raise BP/get blood flow to my brain. I was in cardiac ECU for 5 days before they moved me to a regular room with the wireless monitor.

Since the heart attack I have been taking Coumadin and no other events now of course, especially since I no longer take an steroids other than 100mg/wk test through my doc. I also see my Hematologist about once every three months for a phlebotomy.

Yes, mine is a mutation and there is a number associated with that but I cant remember. Prior to this we had no idea it was in the family and both my mother and father have healthy hearts at ages 76 and 78. I had them both tested and it was my mother that carries the trait. I had my oldest daughter tested and she has it. I am going to test my younger one this year. It really appears to me that the mutation is a bit like some gunpowder and they you need a spark to set it off. That spark for me was the steroids and heavy lifting.

Will your insurance cover lovenox or any of the other newer stuff? I personally would not want to use coumadin but lovenox out of pocket is pricey. Its just being on coumadin as you know sucks. For you coumadin will probably work better because it takes out factor 2 ( among lots of other factors) and lov only takes out 10a but it still might be enough for you.

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

My hemoglobin at the time of the clot was actual normal, around 15 or so. It wasn't the hematocrit/hemoglobin that got me but it certainly was a problem. I had done a phlebotomy to get it down. 1)So with that being where it was I don't think that was an issue in this circumstance.

So the problem must have been a combo of the steroids and clotting disorder. Now as far as my behavior goes, there are many others on this site that have and are doing things similar to what I did and some did not live to tell the tale. I come here to in part make an example of myself so that others going down my path think twice about it. Now the clotting disorder I have isn't very common, about 3% of the white population, there may be others on here that have it and don't know it. In fact, going by probability there are some others on here that do have it. We have had a number of members die on here from blood clots, not sure if they had clotting disorders or not. Here is the disorder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prothrombin_G20210A How do you know that you don't have it? Have you been tested? Unless you aren't white you have a 3% chance of having it.

So it wasn't the hemoglobin in my case. Things are much more complicated. I wish it were so simple.

2 Cruising can be a huge problem too, since most guys cruise on at least 250 mg/wk which is at least 2x what true HRT is. When a person does that the hematocrit never has a chance to go back down after a cycle and in fact rises. I watched my hematocrit rise on a cruise of 250 test. In fact even today as I take just 100 mg/wk HRT through my doctor my hemoglobin rises enough that I need to get a phlebotomy at least once every 3 months. I had my bone marrow tested, etc and the Oncologist/Hematologist could find nothing wrong with me. For many guys it is normal for the hemoglobin to do this on HRT doses, it is well known in the medical community.

3
So when guys cruise it is putting them in danger. Measuring the hemoglobin once every 3 months would be a good way to keep an eye on. It wasn't until I started cruising that I had high hematocrit. Back when I used to go off completely between cycles I never had an issue.

4So tell me, what was the main purpose of your post because I really cant tell for certain?

1)How do you know you didnt have a clot from all that time previously that you had sky high hematocrit...that decided to break lose and create the heart attack. <---this wouldnt be even close to the first time someone who had sky high hematocrit for years ended up having a blood clot later on who had been donating at that very time

2) and that is part of getting regular bloodwork. But you cant pertain everything that has happened to you genetically and the mistakes you have made across the board to everyone. If bloodwork proves out someone has 42-52 hematocrit oncycle or on TRT, I wouldnt worry about a blood clot with them

3) yea but you are cleaning out and were probably doing what everyone is doing...doing blood testing when they are cleaned out instead of when they were on

4) If hypothetically my liver enzymes are thru the roof on cycles and im asking advice to people how to get my liver enzymes down so i can keep on juicing.....when the main problem is that for me genetically (all hypothetically) my liver enzymes go thru the roof on juice....and i ended up having liver failure....is it right for me to tell everyone how bad juice is or is it right to tell everyone "i had distinct warnings of high liver enzymes for years" and i f*&ked up and didnt do a thing about it?.....because I am leaning toward the latter. Im not pro abuse, Im not pro natural....but im absolutely 100% pro bloodwork....and you didnt listen to your bloodwork...if my hematocrit was 63, I wouldnt be able to sleep...i would have so much anxiety....i would be drinking a gallon of water every day/baby aspirin/ and be right in my doctors office demanding a script to get a phlebotomy aspap and regular phlebotomies. Do I believe you would have had a heart attack if you never let your hematocrit get over 52....yes I do believe that you wouldnt have had a heart attack...it was a blood clot, a massive one...derived from massive red blood cell accumalation. Im just not a big fan of blaming the juice when the blame should be on "the responsiblity of ones health" while using the juice...and i say that in a widespread way...the guys on this board who did nothing about having 160 over 110 blood pressure for years and then up in kidney failure...but then come on this board and say "freaking juice did this to me!"....no your irresponsibility in not taking your health into your hands and getting your blood pressure normalized did that to you. thats just how i feel about the subject...and that comes from a guy who has been on TRT for 8 years now (with a couple totally off periods in there)