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Classic Bodybuilding, building the classic physique

Butters

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I already mentioned it in my previous post, but you do realize that Chris can not get any bigger, only refine what he has due to his weight limit? He's not an open bodybuilder trying to get to 300lbs.


do we know how much time they have between weigh ins and stepping onstage?
 

Kaladryn

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i highly doubt that anyone who is going to spend basically every waking moment of their life dedicated to an objective is going to hold back on the gas for any reason... especially when it relates to their income. especially when they know that their competition is not holding back on the gas

same goes for those who say that levrone only used gear for the last few weeks before the O

same goes for those who say that Ronnie became pro as a natural
I agree with your first point but what happens with some of these guys is they don't need to use more, they are capped by weight class and aesthetic proportions so they just don't need to use more.

As for Levrone, it wasn't that he just used gear the last few weeks, it's that he went off everything between shows sometimes and became shockingly small then would blow up super rapidly when training for the show (much like a lot of the 70s bodybuilders did). He was obviously on the whole time he was training for the show and supposedly like high dose anadrol during prep (3-5/day if I remember right).

And Ronnie being natural as a pro is a misunderstanding of what Flex Wheeler said when he stated that "Ronnie was just doing all the regular stuff, we told him he and do all this additional stuff to compete at this level." This "stuff" was GH, slin, and site enhancement (primarily the latter I believe).
 

airman

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One Pro who was natural (for sure) was Jose Raymond. As most already know, he turned down his pro card 3 times, because he knew it would be the end of his career as there was only open bodybuilding and he was far too small for that. Only in 2007 when the IFBB introduced the 210lbs class, he accepted his (4th) procard. He made is pro debut in 2009 at the New York Pro. And this is the story he always tells:

"At the 2007 Nationals, I weighed in at 176 pounds and for the New York Pro debut I was 184 pounds, still natural and finished eighth. I looked good but everybody dwarfed me. It just really opened my eyes to the thought that if I’m going to play this game, then I have to play by the rules that everyone else is following. I struggled with it for a while, thinking should I or shouldn’t I? And then I just knew, I felt in my heart that if I did a little bit of gear, I could make improvements and be one of the best.

I was 34, had been competing for 16 years and experienced a full bodybuilding education. I had won every show there was to win, completely natural— now imagine if I add a little something? I just rationalized, “Why not give it a shot and see what happens.” And so after placing eighth at the New York Pro, less than three months later I was 14 pounds heavier at 198 pounds and second at the Atlanta Pro— which qualified me to compete in the Olympia showdown, which then had a 202-pound limit and I finished sixth.
"

So putting on 14lbs in less then 3 months (stage weight), especially on such a small frame, makes it truly believable to me that he was natural at his pro debut.
 

TheOtherOne55

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There's too much talk on this thread of Classic guys "not having the genes to get big."
I just don't believe that.

EVERY SINGLE CLASSIC competitor right now would've been a regular open BB competitor 15 years ago.
The genes arent was causes them to stay under 210 or so....it's having a choice.
IG has made the aesthetics games fuckin HUGE ...which just pushes this narrative that you can't be out of shape EVER during the year. Nonsense.

Being a legit BB means living 1/2 of your year uncomfortably. You are not 6% any more and you are eating around the clock to build muscle. Sorry, but the average 22 year old competitor when given that option would rather take the easy way and just chill.
Adding muscle is uncomfortable and when given that option, guys will 80% of the time choose against that option. People don't want to be freaks anymore.

There are classic guys taking 1g of tren and eating like birds. Thats a fact.
 

thethinker48

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imagine believing a pro about their doses


life must be difficult being that naive

You're right, must be totally naive

Not like the guy was 225 in highschool deadlifting 500 lbs for reps, or like mentioned has pretty much maxed out his capacity for stage weight, or has an autoimmune condition that flares up from physical stress
 

Butters

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You're right, must be totally naive

Not like the guy was 225 in highschool deadlifting 500 lbs for reps, or like mentioned has pretty much maxed out his capacity for stage weight, or has an autoimmune condition that flares up from physical stress


i know kids who are 15 and are already juicing decently hard.

i sold the gear to their fathers thinking the fathers would be the ones using it... turns out they are giving it to their sons in hopes of making them standouts in highschool sports.

ethics aside, it is what it is. just because they are very young doesn't mean they aren't on drugs already.

yeah, Chris has an autoimmune disease... but i wouldnt be surprised if he was blasting higher doses of milder drugs like test, and avoiding tren, winstrol, halotestin, etc. to work around his condition.
 

Butters

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One Pro who was natural (for sure) was Jose Raymond.


again, i call bullshit.


why would any guy put themselves through the stress of dieting hard as hell, losing muscle just so they can compete against geared up guys while remaining natural?

when they could just pin a gram of test a week and it would make everything SO MUCH easier and not much more expensive at all.

makes absolutely no sense. it's a waste of time... and time is the most valuable thing to a bodybuilder because of how short the career tends to be


am i the only one in this thread with a curious mind? lol.. seems like some of you guys will believe everything you are told.
 

TheOtherOne55

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Butters, apologies for my bluntness but you're coming off insanely ignorant.
Not EVERYONE is taking 3 grams and failing to think that shows that you probably don't compete nor know any competitors.

You ask why guys WOULDN'T just blast 3 grams...well, health obviously. And if you're paid attention to ANY number of threads on here, at a certain dose the side effects just get too shitty to deal with. You're right, there are guys running 2g test + 1g tren and more and can handle it all. Others run 600mg test and look and feel terrible. There is variability. No one here believes everything pros tell them, but they also understand that high dosing doesn't work for everyone.

Also, Jose Raymond was competing at like 140-170 for years and that was during the time where there was no 212 division. Meaning if you turned pro as a welterweight it was a waste of time. You'll never compete again. So he turned down cards and eventually DID use gear...but he competed many years as a natural.

You also stated classic guys don't have the "genes" to get massive. Yep, that comment right there means you don't get it. LOL
 

thethinker48

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i know kids who are 15 and are already juicing decently hard.

i sold the gear to their fathers thinking the fathers would be the ones using it... turns out they are giving it to their sons in hopes of making them standouts in highschool sports.

ethics aside, it is what it is. just because they are very young doesn't mean they aren't on drugs already.

yeah, Chris has an autoimmune disease... but i wouldnt be surprised if he was blasting higher doses of milder drugs like test, and avoiding tren, winstrol, halotestin, etc. to work around his condition.

In an attempt to make a snarky comment, you failed to understand the point of my post

Chris is a 1 in a million genetic freak who NOW uses those doses, doesn't mean he didn't use more in the past, and doesn't mean others are perfect angels running those doses either

That was the point I was making, and it's up to you to believe what you want, and me to believe what I want

The guy I know who uses more is hair of a competitor compared to Bumstead, that has nothing to do with drugs, and everything to do with his mom and dad

When guys talk in absolutes: "All guys do xxx"; one cannot take anything they say seriously, there are never no absolutes
 

Kaladryn

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i highly doubt that anyone who is going to spend basically every waking moment of their life dedicated to an objective is going to hold back on the gas for any reason... especially when it relates to their income. especially when they know that their competition is not holding back on the gas

same goes for those who say that levrone only used gear for the last few weeks before the O

same goes for those who say that Ronnie became pro as a natural
Bodybuilding success is all about determining what is "enough." More isn't better. This is true of everything from what I can tell...
 

Butters

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Butters, apologies for my bluntness but you're coming off insanely ignorant.
Not EVERYONE is taking 3 grams and failing to think that shows that you probably don't compete nor know any competitors.

You ask why guys WOULDN'T just blast 3 grams...well, health obviously. And if you're paid attention to ANY number of threads on here, at a certain dose the side effects just get too shitty to deal with. You're right, there are guys running 2g test + 1g tren and more and can handle it all. Others run 600mg test and look and feel terrible. There is variability. No one here believes everything pros tell them, but they also understand that high dosing doesn't work for everyone.

Also, Jose Raymond was competing at like 140-170 for years and that was during the time where there was no 212 division. Meaning if you turned pro as a welterweight it was a waste of time. You'll never compete again. So he turned down cards and eventually DID use gear...but he competed many years as a natural.

You also stated classic guys don't have the "genes" to get massive. Yep, that comment right there means you don't get it. LOL

i literally never asked why anyone wouldn't be taking 3g of gear lol.. if you're going to make a point, you should be able to do so without putting words in my mouth.

I said why would anyone who is sacrificing a great deal in order to compete not do something as simple as take a gram of test a week to make things dramatically easier.

and i didn't say that Jose Raymond didn't turn pro naturally, i just said that i dont believe it - because why would anyone compete in an untested bodybuilding league where everyone else is on juice, without juicing themselves?




In an attempt to make a snarky comment, you failed to understand the point of my post

Chris is a 1 in a million genetic freak who NOW uses those doses, doesn't mean he didn't use more in the past, and doesn't mean others are perfect angels running those doses either

That was the point I was making, and it's up to you to believe what you want, and me to believe what I want

The guy I know who uses more is hair of a competitor compared to Bumstead, that has nothing to do with drugs, and everything to do with his mom and dad

When guys talk in absolutes: "All guys do xxx"; one cannot take anything they say seriously, there are never no absolutes


i never said "all guys do xxx", i don't think i've spoken in any absolutes in this thread. i just said that i dont believe a top tier pro competing in the highest level of their class would ever be using small dosages, because i dont think their competition would be.


because after all...

This is the truth:

If your diet, training, health and rest are completely up to scratch, the more steroids you take, the bigger you will get. It's as simple as that.

Pros have got their diet, training (health for the most part) and rest up to a standard that works for them perfectly, but they are only the size they are due to the drugs they take. Don't beleive the crap from anyone, that they are not, even from the 'in the know' people that are on this board. Those very same people for the most part have used/use extremely higher dosages than what they preach. Why do they preach the low dosages? - various personal agendas.


sure, Big A is referring to 212 and open competitors, but i would imagine the principle still stands
 

thethinker48

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i literally never asked why anyone wouldn't be taking 3g of gear lol.. if you're going to make a point, you should be able to do so without putting words in my mouth.

I said why would anyone who is sacrificing a great deal in order to compete not do something as simple as take a gram of test a week to make things dramatically easier.

and i didn't say that Jose Raymond didn't turn pro naturally, i just said that i dont believe it - because why would anyone compete in an untested bodybuilding league where everyone else is on juice, without juicing themselves?







i never said "all guys do xxx", i don't think i've spoken in any absolutes in this thread. i just said that i dont believe a top tier pro competing in the highest level of their class would ever be using small dosages, because i dont think their competition would be.


because after all...




sure, Big A is referring to 212 and open competitors, but i would imagine the principle still stands

Every argument that has been brought forth on this topic, you've dismissed with your own reasoning

Young and built? I know kids on steroids
Autoimmune? Must be blasting non harsh drugs
Great Genetics? Competes against top level

I get your point, and it's a valid one. But you fail to understand the opposing view

I don't want to turn this thread into a 10 page argument back, and forth for hubris sake. Only time I go back and forth with someone on here is to gain a better understanding of their point, not to be right or gain social approval

You've made your point which is perfectly valid; I just don't think it's anymore invalid to assume that a guy with elite genetics who has already built most of the muscle he needs can use lower amounts in a division where shape, and structure reigns supreme to preserve his health, and longevity

I'll end it here
 

Butters

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Every argument that has been brought forth on this topic, you've dismissed with your own reasoning

Young and built? I know kids on steroids
Autoimmune? Must be blasting non harsh drugs
Great Genetics? Competes against top level

I get your point, and it's a valid one. But you fail to understand the opposing view

I don't want to turn this thread into a 10 page argument back, and forth for hubris sake. Only time I go back and forth with someone on here is to gain a better understanding of their point, not to be right or gain social approval

You've made your point which is perfectly valid; I just don't think it's anymore invalid to assume that a guy with elite genetics who has already built most of the muscle he needs can use lower amounts in a division where shape, and structure reigns supreme to preserve his health, and longevity

I'll end it here


agreed.

im not saying that i am right and anyone else is wrong.

im just saying that i dont believe the things people say about pros - or what they say about themselves.

im naturally a very skeptical guy, so anything i say should be taken with a grain of salt.



and at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what i think
 

N.L....M.....

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They used to brother ... today ? Hell no

Around 1 - 1,5 g , today guys exceed that only with their test dosage
I don’t believe guys really used minimal drugs at a pro level back in the day. I’ve heard some honest ones talk about using grams upon grams of deca and tons of dbol, primo, and para. I honestly just think more guys are more honest now and we have more options. Old guys do what old guys do and that exaggerate and romanticize “back in the day” to seem better than the generations after them. I think as time went on guys had better understanding of how to grow, diet and train. Guys looked more appealing and streamlined because they were smaller. Balding, acne, etc is genetic. Also now we have access to more competitors throughout the year not just on stage or guest posing and just touched up pictures in magazines. Back in the day it was cream of the crop that we saw in their best condition. It’s really just rose colored glasses and nostalgia when people talk about the golden years.
 

Butters

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I don’t believe guys really used minimal drugs at a pro level back in the day. I’ve heard some honest ones talk about using grams upon grams of deca and tons of dbol, primo, and para. I honestly just think more guys are more honest now and we have more options. Old guys do what old guys do and that exaggerate and romanticize “back in the day” to seem better than the generations after them. I think as time went on guys had better understanding of how to grow, diet and train. Guys looked more appealing and streamlined because they were smaller. Balding, acne, etc is genetic. Also now we have access to more competitors throughout the year not just on stage or guest posing and just touched up pictures in magazines. Back in the day it was cream of the crop that we saw in their best condition. It’s really just rose colored glasses and nostalgia when people talk about the golden years.


and back then, they didn't have nearly as much knowledge about the health effects of heavy juicing.. so no reason not to without the knowledge
 

N.L....M.....

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and back then, they didn't have nearly as much knowledge about the health effects of heavy juicing.. so no reason not to without the knowledge
Hell we have it now and guys still choose to do it. When Arnold said something along the lines of he’d drink horse piss to win I don’t think he was talking about some 100mg primo a week and 10mg of the magical old school dbol.
Some guys use more, some use less absolutely but when you’re at the top and you’ve got the funds I feel you’re going to do whatever it takes to win.
 

xpoc

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As a "fan" I enjoying seeing those mass monsters....kind of like how I like seeing the freaks like Lobster Boy or the two-headed snake at the state fair. But, in real life, I would much rather look like those Classic Physique guys. When I think Classic I think of Bob Paris or Brian Buchanan. The absolute KEY here, is the waistline. Not to state the obvious, but todays open class has kegs for midsections, not six-packs. Sure, they are freaking shredded...but compare what you see now to these two pics (shoulder to waist ratio is what I am keying on here):
 

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airman

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and i didn't say that Jose Raymond didn't turn pro naturally, i just said that i dont believe it - because why would anyone compete in an untested bodybuilding league where everyone else is on juice, without juicing themselves?

As far as Jose, I can understand why he tried competing naturally as a pro (and it was only for his first show). If you were winning shows for years as a natural, turn pro as a natural, wouldn't you think to yourself, "damn I'm good, let's see if I can beat these guys without using gear"

He says himself, "after getting my ass kicked, I realized that in order for me to be competitive I was going to have to even out the playing field and go to the dark side"

You can look up the shows and see the difference. You think anyone that is already doing gear, got their initial cycle gains, can just up the dose and gain 18lbs of stage weight in 3 months?!? Damn 18lbs! If I manage to gain 5lbs of stage weight blasting for a year, I'm happy like a pig in shit! Do you see the genetic difference there?

Lastly, do I believe all the pros? Hell no. Yes most of them lie through their teeth, downplaying the importance of drugs. They don't want to give drugs credit, for the work they have put in. They preach lower doses, and while some of them maintain on lower doses, they have a selective memory of what doses got them to where they are.

But like I said, there are exceptions to every rule. Some people are really blessed. There is guys that blast a gram for their first cycle, and gain nothing but some water and are lucky if they manage to put on 5lbs of actual tissue. Then there is guys that do 250mg for their first cycle and gain 20lbs of muscle. That's life and its not always fair.

Ofcourse wouldn't be a proper debate if I didn't ask; if its just about the high dosages, why don't you blast 1.5g of Test, 1.5g of Tren a bunch of orals, and get on the Olympia stage. Prove us wrong. Well maybe you don’t have the structure to be a good pro, but if its just about high drugs, you can at least easily turn pro. Go win a national overall at least. Show us what drugs it takes to get there.

When I was younger, I did sort of believe it was just about the drugs (gh15 wasn't much help in thinking otherwise lol) but the older I get, the more I realize how we are all so different, respond differently, grow differently. But most of all, I no longer care what others do, or whether they lie, or what I suspect they really do. Only care about what I'm willing to do, how I can improve, and what I'm capable if achieving. Only concern myself with myself, who cares what the next guy might be doing.
 

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