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Cutting SUCKS, someone help

Big A

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BALDNAZI
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Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Brooklyn NY
Posts: 60
Cutting SUCKS, someone help
I think I have had it with trying to get cut.Every damn time I do it,I lose a ton of good muscle and size.I have tried low dose T3,high dose T3, and no matter what I burn muscle fast.It seems the moment I cut carbs down,drop the insulin,add T3, its Bye Bye to all the gains from bulking.Its like, why do I always waste so much cash on bulking,to just lose it all trying to get cut???

The funny thing is I still stay fat on the trouble spots,like lower abs but my upper body will shrink dramatically.I may be over stating it,but still what the hell is the secret? I have tried clen with T3,I use high doses of prop and an anabolic,even thrown in some dbol to try and keep size,but to no avail.The size still comes off.Im at the point where I say "fuck it" and shoot the slin again,eat like a beast,real high doses of gear and never take my shirt off at the beach again.Just a tank top and shorts to display the mass. But damn,abs and size would be nice,HELP!!!!

"Der Sieg Wird Unser Sein"



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04-28-2002 10:54 PM



Got Juice
Member

Registered: Jan 2002
Location:
Posts: 30
i dont know bro, i have the same damn problem. i have been dieting for exactly 4 weeks right now. to tell you the truth i only look a little bit leaner. 4 damn weeks of dieting i was planning on being a lot leaner, but i just feel smaller. im 19 and was about 210, now im about 200. i havent got my bf checked but i wish i would have in the beginning. also i have been pretty strict, low carb diet is what im on. but occasionally i get discouraged and eat some ceral and crackers to make the tummy feel better!

i dont know man, it fuckin sucsk thats all i can say, hopefully i can stick with it for another 4 weeks and be where i want to be, which is about 8% i would guess im at about 11% now, maybe i was around 14% when i started, thats just a rough estimate.

Later,
Todd



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04-29-2002 11:01 AM



Ry Roid
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Registered: Jan 2002
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Posts: 211
One thing is I wouldn't totally drop out the carbs now the insulin. Try tapering down the carbs gradually then don't do 0 carbs like most rather .5grams per lb bodywt. Do this for 3 days on than 1 day high carbs of 2gram per lb bodywt. Drop and raise the Pro and Fat accordingly and keep calories round same.

RY


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04-29-2002 11:34 AM



w8's
Junior Member

Registered: Apr 2002
Location:
Posts: 15
i personally start at a 40/40/20 ratio and at a set cal range and play with my ratios from there. slowly droping carbs when i am not losing anymore. 5 weeks ago i was 16% i am now 9% with no muscle loss acording to the calipers. i am also doing two sessions of cardio per day. i have 11 weeks to get down to 3%. damm i wish i didn't have a jar a day natural peanut butter habbit this winter!!!! i would be in shape already.



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04-30-2002 04:53 AM



Mr. Magoo
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Registered: Apr 2002
Location:
Posts: 46
look at animabolics and swoles diet they work great for fat loss and muscle size, or do some dnp



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04-30-2002 05:05 AM



Mr. Magoo
Member

Registered: Apr 2002
Location:
Posts: 46
look at animabolics and swoles diet they work great for fat loss and muscle size, or do some dnp



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04-30-2002 05:05 AM



artemis
Junior Member

Registered: Mar 2002
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 3
I agree that animalbolics works great for fat loss with any/much muscle loss, I used it to drop 14% a couple of years ago. Don't know if it is a competition diet, but if fat loss is your goal it works nicely.



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04-30-2002 06:50 PM



Bishop
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Registered: Feb 2002
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Posts: 36
where can i see an example of that diet? I heard someone talking about it not to long ago but can't find much on it as far as a "how to guide".



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05-01-2002 03:46 AM



Jethro Tull
Member

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Montana
Posts: 75
NAZI...I DO SOMETHING SIMILAR TO WHAT RY SUGGESTS.......
FIRST LET ME TELL YOU THAT I AGREE WITH YOUR SENTIMENTS THAT DIETING SUCKS. STICK IT OUT...THE FIRST MONTH I ALWAYS LOOK SHITTY...WORSE THAN I DID BEFORE I STARTED THE DIET. SEEMS LIKE I LOOK AS FAT..BUT SMALLER! NOT COOL...IT MUST BE ALL THE MARBELED FAT IN THE MUSCLE OR SOMETHING...ONE THING I KNOW IS THAT I AM SMALLER. I'LL EVEN ASK MY GIRL AND SHE FLAT OUT TELLS ME THE TRUTH...'YEP, YOU ARE NOT IMAGINING IT, YOU ARE SMALLER AND SOFTER'...DAMB HONESTY! HAHAAHA.....SHE SAYS, "YOU LOOK BETTER BIGGER". THAT IS PRETTY MUCH HER SENTIMENT UNTIL I KEEP WITH IT AND START TO SHOW THE RESULTS OF PATIENCE. YOU MUST STICK IT OUT! I KNOW SOME FOLKS SAY NINE WEEKS IS ALL YOU NEED BUT I GO 12 TO 14 WEEKS. ALSO....THAT 3-4 DAYS OF LOW CARBS FOLLOWED BY ONE HIGHER CARB DAY SEEMS TO WORK WELL FOR ME [RY MENTIONED IT...] CHANCES ARE YOU'LL BLOW IT IF YOU DON'T WRITE ALL THE CALS, FAT, PRO, CARBS YOU ARE EATING. NAZI, IF I WERE TO ASK YOU RIGHT NOW...'HOW MANY CALORIES DID YOU EAT YESTERDAY'? WOULD YOU BE ABLE TO TELL ME EXACTLY? IF NOT THAT'S GOOD...NOW YOU KNOW WHAT TO DO. WRITE IT DOWN. THE BEST WAY FOR ME IS TO PICK SOME FOODS I KNOW I'LL EAT AND ONLY, ONLY, ONLY...EAT THOSE FOODS. FOR EXAMPLE IF YOU HATE TUNA..BUT KNOW YOU'LL EAT THOSE BIG 3.50$ CANS OF PREMIUM CHICKEN BREAST...WELL BUY THREE OF THOSE EACH DAY AND GET THREE LITTLE CANS OF GREEN BEANS TO EAT WITH THEM. READ THE CANS AND MAKE SURE THAT THREE OF YOUR MEALS ARE CHICKEN AND GREEN BEANS...READ THE CANS AND WRITE DOWN THE INFO...MAYBE YOUR OTHER THREE MEALS ARE MYOPLEX SHAKES. MAKE SURE YOU ARE CONSISTENT WITH IT EACH DAY. WALK 45MIN ON THE TREADMILL FIRST THING IN THE AM ON AN EMPTY STOMACH. [GET SOME JAMMIN TUNES OR YOU'LL BE BORED AS HELL] I AM DO ANOTHER SESSION AT NIGHT AFTER MY LAST MEAL. BE PATIENT STALLION...SOMETHING ELSE I AM NOTICING....IT GETS EASIER EACH TIME I DIET...MY FAT LEGS ARE GETTING MORE VEINS THAT SHOW EACH TIME I DIET. SO THAT'S COOL! YOU CAN DO IT!



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05-01-2002 04:20 AM



BALDNAZI
Member

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Brooklyn NY
Posts: 60
WHAT ABOUT T3 PLUS SLIN
Thanks for all the responses guys.I have done RY's method and it worked.I looked real good last year,and I thank him for the help. I can handle the diet part,its just the size problem.A couple weeks ago I stopped bulking,I weighed 260.My biggest ever,sure I was fat but my upper body was relatively lean,veiny and just jacked.According to everyone,I was huge..My legs were ok,alittle soft but my gut was there.The ROID GUT.

After a couple weeks of cutting down carbs and using t3,i weigh about 250.But it seems like Jethro said,I feel Im way smaller while my abs are nowhere.And Im soft. CRAP. I want to keep the size so what about this. Is there a way to add insulin into a cutting cycle without it effecting bodyfat? I will be taking high doses of prop,fina,EQ,dbol.I have T3 and clen.I figure the t3 and clen will help counteract the insulins effects on fat. I always cut the slin out,and maybe the key is to keep it in,but in a different way?I seem to respond to low doses of T3,but if I take 100mcg,its too much.I just burn muscle, fat everything.So Ravers high doses are out of the question. Any ideas Jethro,Ry ,anybody?

"Der Sieg Wird Unser Sein"



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05-01-2002 05:18 AM



Got Juice
Member

Registered: Jan 2002
Location:
Posts: 30
RY quick question for you.
hey man, thats exactly what i have been contemplating doing. i was like man, 4 weeks of no carbs is killing me and honestly i wasnt happy with the results. so i was thinking of lowering the fat intake and upping the carbs, which is exactly what you recommended.

quick question. im weighing roughly 200, what ratio would you say i should stick with on my .5gram per lb of body weight?

should i keep fat really low? firgure 100 carbs is 400 cals.
then around 300 protein, 1200 cals.

so total i have 1600 cals in protein and carbs, so roughly 20-30g of fat sound about right?

Thanks for the help bro,

Todd



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05-01-2002 10:48 AM



w8ts
Member

Registered: Jan 2002
Location:
Posts: 34
you will probably think I'm stupid but
the best supplement I have found for cutting and keeping size is test enanthate. I have the same problem as you when I try to cut up. The last time I took test I got freaken shreaded. I was eating like crazy Mon - Sat and on Sun I would eat very low carbs almost none. The fat just melted off. I didn't even do any cardio.



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05-01-2002 11:55 AM



bigmag
Junior Member

Registered: May 2002
Location: here and there
Posts: 17
you could try to add some winny or EQ while cutting.....I know that they won't help burn fat but I've been on them while cutting and they helped alot with maintaining muscle.


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Only the strong survive!!


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05-02-2002 01:34 AM



Apache
Junior Member

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: USA
Posts: 15
Animalobolics
Animals original post on Animalobolics
Study perfi,rmed by Taylor and colleagues.' Following ingestion of a test meal consisting of cereal, skim milk, scrambled eggs, French toast, apple juice, and a milk shake [200 g (60% or 800 calories) carbohydrate, 45 g (21% fat or 405 calories), 80 g (19% or 320 calories) protein; 1,914 kcall] [The total calories and the breakdown of the intake is wrong because my scanner screwed it up and I don't have the original] by healthy subjects, muscle glycogen concentration did not start to rise until 1-2 hours after eating, and the increase was not statistically significant until 3 hours after eating. Seven hours following the meal, plasma insulin levels were still elevated threefold. Four hours following the meal, muscle glycogen began to fall, suggesting a flux of excess carbon out of the muscle and into storage as triglycerides (fat).
Another argument for Animalobolics! I had been looking for this entry into my comp for 2 years and though I don't have the entire study, that last line is significant. This was a mixed meal containing fat. This is not what you want to do after a workout. Look how long it took glycogen levels in the muscle to rise. 1-2 hours and it wasn't important until 3 hours. You need no fat and simple carbs with protein after a workout.
Seven hours following the meal, plasma insulin levels were still elevated threefold. Let's see, you want to eat small meals all day, still? The point is that eating mixed meals gets your insulin up and keeps it up for a long time. Hell, by 7 hours many would have eaten 2 more times and that would push your insulin up even higher and longer. Remember, if insulin is present, fat burning is negative!
The magical last line!!! Four hours following the meal, muscle glycogen began to fall, suggesting a flux of excess carbon out of the muscle and into storage as triglycerides (fat). Ahahahaha! Your insulin is still sky high and you haven't eaten anything, and carbon is leaking out of the muscles to be turned into fat! The muscles have all the carbs they need and when they are full of glycogen any excess glucose is going to be stored as fat! Read it, again. This is a main point of Animalobolics and why you only have carbs after your workout. Why? Because you carbed up AFTER the workout when it is most important and any further influx of carbs is going to leak out of a fully carbed up muscle and go to fat.
Again, I will give you the basics and most of you can figure out the rest. Base calorie should be figured out at 10-12 x your wt in lbs. All caloric intake is worked out by going backwards from your post workout meal. For that meal you take in 1g carbs for every 1k bodyweight. Now, you also take 1g whey or soy protein for every 2.5g of carbs that you just figured out. Do this immediately and 1-2 hours later. Subtract those numbers from your total caloric intake to see how much else you can eat for your other meals.
200lb man x 12 = 2400 calories.
200/2.2 = 90K
90K = 90g carbs after workout.
90/2.5 = 36g protein.
90g carbohydrates = 360cal
36g protein = 145 cal protein.
Total immediate intake is 505calories.
If you don't that regimen 1-2 hours later you will then have 1010calories.
2400 base - workout meals = 1390 calories left to eat for the next 24 hours. (Almost 3 Bigmacs) and if you can't make it through the day on those calories I don't know what to tell you) I'll tell you that with all that protein it is hard to eat after those 2 postworkout meals.
ALL YOUR SUBSEQUENT MEALS ARE GOING TO BE NO GLYCEMIC MEALS! Except for 2-3 doses of 200calories worth of fruit for a total of 400-500calories in carbs to keep your liver converting T4-T3. 200 in the morning 100cal or so at lunch and 100-200 at 2hrs before your next workout.
1390 - 500 calories leaves you with 890. If you are taking 1g protein per lb which I find very hard to do, that is 200g protein and 800 calories. You already have taken in 72g protein for 288 calories. From morning until your next workout you then need to get 128 g protein or 512 more calories in protein. That leaves you with only 378 calories in fat which is 42g. Just make sure you eat whey protein and eggs in the morning, then you can eat chicken or tuna salad (no bread) or taco salads (no shell) for lunch and you will be set. After the 2nd post-workout meals try to eat somewhat of a regular small meal to slow absorption and give you a release of protein while you sleep.

My Abolics Diet (~200lbs)

Outline: Protein Carbs Fat Cals
2 Post-workout shakes each at 36 90 0 505
Fruit 0 125 0 500
Remaining Protein 128 0 0 512
Remaining Fat 0 0 42 378
Total: 200 305 42 2400

Meal Food Protein Carbs Fat
Breakfast
~10am 3 egg whites and 2 whole eggs 26 0 12
Protein shake 18 1 0
16oz OJ 0 51 0
'
Lunch
~noon 1 can Tuna 30 0 0
1 Orange 0 17 0

Pre-Workout 16oz OJ 0 51 0
~1:30

Post-Workout #1
~immeadiately after Shake 36 90 0

Post-Workout #2
~1-2hrs later Shake 36 90 0

Dinner 4oz Ground Sirloin 32 0 17
~9:00pm 1oz cheddar 7 0 9
1/2 Potato n/a n/a n/a

Total: 185 300 38
You guys need to understand that the fruit is vital for this diet to work. If you guys can stand mixing a little honey w/ lemon in water that is much better becuase honey is like 95% fructose. The reason for eating this fruit or honey is that fructose is 4x better at getting converted to liver glycogen than glucose is. This is mandatory to keep your liver converting T3 and T4. The reason for eating the potato before bed is to make sure the protein eaten is absorbed slowly over the entire night.



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05-02-2002 02:27 AM



Ry Roid
Moderator

Registered: Jan 2002
Location:
Posts: 211
Re: RY quick question for you.
hey man, thats exactly what i have been contemplating doing. i was like man, 4 weeks of no carbs is killing me and honestly i wasnt happy with the results. so i was thinking of lowering the fat intake and upping the carbs, which is exactly what you recommended.

**As the carbs go up the protein and fat go down but, keep calories the same.

quick question. im weighing roughly 200, what ratio would you say i should stick with on my .5gram per lb of body weight?

**For low carb days 100gram carbs, 300grams Pro, 150grams Fat and for high carb days 400gram carbs, 500grams pro, 80-100grams fat. I like to keep a little more fat in my diet than most.

should i keep fat really low? firgure 100 carbs is 400 cals.
then around 300 protein, 1200 cals.

**NOt a fan of SUPER LOW FAT diets.

so total i have 1600 cals in protein and carbs, so roughly 20-30g of fat sound about right?

**MORE!!
Thanks for the help bro,

Todd [/B][/QUOTE]


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You can determine a man's worth by the amount of criticism that comes out of his mouth.

-Niche


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05-02-2002 07:32 AM



physiqueartist
Member

Registered: Mar 2002
Location: wisconsin
Posts: 43
jsut adding my 2cc worth. I just got finished dieting for a compt. I followed a low carb high protein mod fat diet.

My protein sources came from chicken-turkey and I would alternate either a ground sirloin or regular sirloin steak.

Carbs I ate yams and brown rice.

Veggies: Just ate Broccolli

Fats: I got from flax seed oil, and olive oil with addition of peanuts on my ketosis days.

I ate every 2 1/2 hours. I weighed 192 and ate 8 meals a day at aroudn 45-50 grams of protein per meal.
I altered my carbs going 1 day low carb(75-100 grams) 1 day mod carb (150-200) 2-3 days 0 carb (actually around 50 grams) then have one cheatr meal on saturday.

I ran slin on my program I woudl do 3 ius in a.m then 2 ius every 2 hours until I was in ketosis. When in ketosis I would do 6 ius in a.m then 3 ius in afternoon and anothe r3 ius after I trained. The slin worked great, I actually put on size and weigh whiel dpeletign my carbs and going into ketosis.

Cardio I woudl do 40 min in a.m on empty stomach and 15 minutes after my training.

For weight trainign i went 4 days on 1 day off while cutting.

I also drank at least 2 gallons of water a day.

I understan how you feel, we all go through that same feeling, but trust me you will break through it and look and fell like frickin superman. Good luck cuttign we are all here to support you.



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05-02-2002 10:44 AM



Motorhed
Member

Registered: Feb 2002
Location: colorado
Posts: 53
HOLY-SHIT APACHE!!!
AWSOME POST. That would have taken me 2 weeks to type!!!
I'm trying to cut up for summer now. I'm 215# @ 9% bf. 5 weeks of dieting.....I feel FAT AND FLAT. I'm psyched to give this a try. Thanx again for the info!!!!!!! MH


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"I'm so bad baby I don't care!!"....Lemmy


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05-02-2002 09:52 PM



Bishop
Member

Registered: Feb 2002
Location:
Posts: 36
When dieting do ya'll keep your program the same the whole way through (excluding the last couple of weeks before a show) or do you cut calories or carbs as you go? I've seen in a lot of standard precomp diets that the calories are cut by 200 every 2 weeks or so (I guess to compensate for decreasing metabolisim).



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05-02-2002 10:21 PM



Jethro Tull
Member

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Montana
Posts: 75
Nazi...I don't have any expirience with slin or t3.
only stuff I've read....sorry I am so darn lame!



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05-04-2002 12:59 AM



BALDNAZI
Member

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Brooklyn NY
Posts: 60
JETHRO.....
The reason you have no experience with it is because your a genetic freak.You don't have to take much of anything yet your in the 290's on a bulk,and with cutting your shredded.Could you imagine what you will look like when you start hitting heavy doses,plus growth,slin,t3 etc?????

With the natural gifts you have I predict great things for you.And I hope we see you in the big time one day.Not to mention your a good person,so you deserve it.

Ok enough of the gay shit,hehe.Read my post in Ry's anti e sale thread. I believe my problem is not only diet,but estrogen related.Since I have a good idea at what the diet should be and I can handle the low carb days, maybe estrogen is the final culprit.

Im thinking high doses of gear,an anti e,slin only after training,moderate t3,6-10 clen per day,low to none carb days with a couple of higher carb days,a TON of protein,and cardio in the morning 3-4 days a week, I should be a ok.

I peaked at 260,im 250 now,when Im done Ill probably be 230+ with my best look ever.We will see.

"Der Sieg Wird Unser Sein"



Bishop
Member

Registered: Feb 2002
Location:
Posts: 36

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by physiqueartist

I ran slin on my program I woudl do 3 ius in a.m then 2 ius every 2 hours until I was in ketosis. When in ketosis I would do 6 ius in a.m then 3 ius in afternoon and anothe r3 ius after I trained. The slin worked great, I actually put on size and weigh whiel dpeletign my carbs and going into ketosis.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



will glucophage do the same to help with ketosis? how long would you stay in ketosis?



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05-06-2002 03:38 AM



deadlift1965
Junior Member

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 27
shredded Wheat
Bros,

I may be of a different breed than the rest of the male population..... I am CUT. Always been. But have a REALLY hard time puttin on size. Guys at the gym call me "shredded wheat".

When I want to shred a bit more - I NEVER touch my diet. The size will just melt off me. But, I found that I can just add some running to my normal bulking workouts. Results are awesome.

IT WORKS FOR ME:
Here's my advice to get cut and keep most your size: Run 3-5 miles a day - Keep your workouts HEAVY........... Eat whatever the [email protected]##$% you want as long as your running. Try this for 3 months.

The running is tough, but youre gonna dig the results if you can hack it.



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05-06-2002 11:31 AM



Dr.S
Junior Member

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: cali
Posts: 4
The answer is oh so simple.......don't get fat..

Nazi, i went through the same problem as you (and alot of others in this post). I know realize that only a small % of guys have the genetics to extreme bulk and cut down with little or no size loss.
Over the past year or so i have had a lot of clients who did the bulk/cut thing and had the same problem as I had had. So I constructed diets where the muscle gain was slower, but the bodyfat stayed low also. I don't train many guys with great genetics, but most of them actually are now looking better and bigger than when they did the bulk/cut. High protein/flax oil and carbs in the 75-200g per day range.

think about this--- would you rather reach your goals through a couple years of steady gaining, or go back in forth in weight, while developing more stretch marks, loose skin, and a distended gut? I'm not saying you can stay at 5% bf year round, but around 8% or a little below. right now i'm in the process of dropping some weight, and once i stablize at a low bodyfat% I will increace cals just enough to gain size while maintaining low bf%....making adjustments as needed.....

I think one of the problems we have is we get advice from someone who has awesome genetics, or we look at someone like Lee Priest and think: well, if he can get really fat and diet down shredded, so can I. But most of us are dreaming, 'cause we don't have those kind of genetics.....I was always a great athlete so i figured a must have "great" genetics, and it took me a while to figure out that athleticism doesn't always correlate to great "bb'ing" genetics. So just be honest with yourself.....my advice to most of you is Just don't get fat in the first place....

Dr.S......



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05-06-2002 11:36 PM



Jethro Tull
Member

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Montana
Posts: 75
hahaha....thanks Nazi!
Good luck on your rippedness! hahaha....I am a genetic freak...freakin' small arms and a swimmers physique...hehehehe...
I just showed one of my students your handle..[The BaldNazi.....he thinks it's cool!]
 

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