Dextrose, Karbolyn or Vitargo after Insulin?

[gotgame]

What makes hcbd significantly better? I can't imagine it being THAT much better then a lower osmolarity dextrose solution. I am not that familiar with hcbd but a simple dextrose solution empties pretty darn fast. And even if let's say hcbd is a bit faster does it warrant a higher price? Maybe just drink dextrose a few minutes sooner. If they are equal in price then sure good with the faster one.

 

[NY Muscle]

What makes hcbd significantly better? I can't imagine it being THAT much better then a lower osmolarity dextrose solution. I am not that familiar with hcbd but a simple dextrose solution empties pretty darn fast. And even if let's say hcbd is a bit faster does it warrant a higher price? Maybe just drink dextrose a few minutes sooner. If they are equal in price then sure good with the faster one.

I don't like carbs or drinking them but with HBCD's I can consume 75-100gms in 1500ml of water and still eat right after. It is so easy on the stomach. If you can reach out to Mike Arnold he had an awesome explanation of the full benefits, I read it a few days ago after reading hundreds of pages on his insulin protocol. I just don't know which post or page it is in.

 

[gotgame]

I don't like carbs or drinking them but with HBCD's I can consume 75-100gms in 1500ml of water and still eat right after. It is so easy on the stomach. If you can reach out to Mike Arnold he had an awesome explanation of the full benefits, I read it a few days ago after reading hundreds of pages on his insulin protocol. I just don't know which post or page it is in.

Thanks bro. I am absolutely no expert in hcbd. If the science is on point I'll definitely look into it more.

 

[Bio-hazard]

Ok so here is my question/confusion....

With Dextrose you simply took 10g per 1iu (roughly).

With HBCD would I do the same? Does the Carb ratio come out to the same with Humalog? (I prefer the fast acting slin)

So say I take 5iu. Do I do 50g of HBCD 20min post injection as I would do with dextrose?

The question I'm getting at is, if I switch to HBCD, does the normal protocol change? For now, I'm just talking about carbs.

Anyone got answers or suggestions to my above?

 

[Growman]

Anyone got answers or suggestions to my above?

It just depends on the person. Some guys need 10g carbs per 1iu slin, some guys can get by with less. if you used 10g carbs from dextrose and that worked then if you switch to HBCD I would do the same thing.

Just because it is a superior carb doesnt mean you need less. I would start at 10 and if no hypo feeling maybe try a little less. I do 10 (carbs) to be safe

And yes its the same with humalog as humilin r, the peak times are just different. So if you require 10g of carbs per 1iu you will need to get them in during a shorter window with humalog than with humilin r. Humalog hits faster and exits the system faster.

 

[finxster]

Ok so here is my question/confusion....

With Dextrose you simply took 10g per 1iu (roughly).

With HBCD would I do the same? Does the Carb ratio come out to the same with Humalog? (I prefer the fast acting slin)

So say I take 5iu. Do I do 50g of HBCD 20min post injection as I would do with dextrose?

The question I'm getting at is, if I switch to HBCD, does the normal protocol change? For now, I'm just talking about carbs.

Powder gatorade has never let me down...I prefer fruit punch...used slin on and off with it for about 5 years. Used Grape Juice before that, but it caused some stomach issues. I like to use R prewo though, with a preshake, intrashake, and post shake.

 

[snowpatrol]

Any HBCD carb source for me (I switch between glycofuse and karbolyn, whatever I can find cheapest)

 

[Growman]

Powder gatorade has never let me down...I prefer fruit punch...used slin on and off with it for about 5 years. Used Grape Juice before that, but it caused some stomach issues. I like to use R prewo though, with a preshake, intrashake, and post shake.

I like to use R pre workout also. Never tried log but some guys say it hits hard. Plus with R you can get more nutrients in under the curve as its active longer.

 

[roastdawg]

And yes its the same with humalog as humilin r, the peak times are just different. So if you require 10g of carbs per 1iu you will need to get them in during a shorter window with humalog than with humilin r. Humalog hits faster and exits the system faster.

So 10g carbs per iu for you is total carbs? The ask because different people say different things here. One well known protocol calls for three shakes with 10g carb per iu each so it comes out to 30g an iu overall. Unless I'm misinterpreting.



roast

 

[NY Muscle]

So 10g carbs per iu for you is total carbs? The ask because different people say different things here. One well known protocol calls for three shakes with 10g carb per iu each so it comes out to 30g an iu overall. Unless I'm misinterpreting.



roast

Yes that's Mike Arnold's protocol and it's THE protocol but some of us just don't want a ton of carbs based on our body type and metabolism and goals. I only like one big shake and not 3 medium shakes that Mike calls for.

But 10 grams of carbs per iu of slin is standard and I like to vary from 7-10. Based on each persons sensitivity I think Mike would agree to those numbers.

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[roastdawg]

Yes that's Mike Arnold's protocol and it's THE protocol but some of us just don't want a ton of carbs based on our body type and metabolism and goals. I only like one big shake and not 3 medium shakes that Mike calls for.

But 10 grams of carbs per iu of slin is standard and I like to vary from 7-10. Based on each persons sensitivity I think Mike would agree to those numbers.

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When you say you like one large shake vs the three small recommended by Mike I'm still a little confused. My take on the three shake protocol is three shakes with 7-10g an iu each. Your protocol is one large shake but aren't you saying it's the same 7-10g an? So it's 1/3rd the carbs of the three shake protocol correct? Sorry just trying to make sure I'm understanding both method correctly.

roast

 

[snowpatrol]

I don't think mike's protocol has ever called for a total of 30grams of carbs per IU of insulin, he would have something like 30g carbs in each of three shakes for 9ius...total of 90g carbs (10:1 ratio) for example

Similarly I prefer to just have one 'shake' and I think humalog is superior for preWO insulin use (my preferred method...)

1. pin 10ius humalog immediately preWO
2. drink (sip) intraWO shake containing EAAs + ~100g HBCD over the course of the next 50-75 minutes while lifting
3. go about your day as usual...eat a real meal when you can, no rush

 

[NY Muscle]

When you say you like one large shake vs the three small recommended by Mike I'm still a little confused. My take on the three shake protocol is three shakes with 7-10g an iu each. Your protocol is one large shake but aren't you saying it's the same 7-10g an? So it's 1/3rd the carbs of the three shake protocol correct? Sorry just trying to make sure I'm understanding both method correctly.

roast

Now that I recall his protocol is 15iu then three 60gram carb shakes. 180gms total so 12gms of carbs per iu of slin. He likes to have people start high to play it safe until they learn their body and insulin. I've even seen him talk about people doing 6gms/iu.

He also talks about being able to play with the numbers so you can keep it to 10gms per iu or under.


Now as far as mine. I decide how many carbs I'm comfortable with then work my insulin dose off that not the other way around. 75 to 85 grams is my sweet spot. So I would do around 10ius of slin.

I so have questions that I don't have answers to such as what's better... to have more grams of carbs per iu or less. Trying to understand the pros and cons of both scenario.


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[roastdawg]

I don't think mike's protocol has ever called for a total of 30grams of carbs per IU of insulin, he would have something like 30g carbs in each of three shakes for 9ius...total of 90g carbs (10:1 ratio) for example

Similarly I prefer to just have one 'shake' and I think humalog is superior for preWO insulin use (my preferred method...)

1. pin 10ius humalog immediately preWO
2. drink (sip) intraWO shake containing EAAs + ~100g HBCD over the course of the next 50-75 minutes while lifting
3. go about your day as usual...eat a real meal when you can, no rush

Awesome, clears up a lot for me. When you fast eat a real man when you can does that mean you can get away with no meal during the window the slin is active or is that not advised? I do if and normally train fasted unless using slin so I dont normally have a meal until 4-5 hrs post workout. Thanks

roast

 

[Heath82]

Really you should match the amount of insulin with the number of carbs u take peri workout, with 10g per iu as a baseline... Then add supplements like mike has (eaas, glycerine, beta alanine, citrullene malate, glutamine, creatine) with ur shake(s).

 

[Growman]

So 10g carbs per iu for you is total carbs? The ask because different people say different things here. One well known protocol calls for three shakes with 10g carb per iu each so it comes out to 30g an iu overall. Unless I'm misinterpreting.



roast

Keep it simple. If you do 10iu of slin you need 100grams of carbs (total) over the time the slin is active. Preferably at the peaks....

Some guys can get away with 6-7g carbs per iu. But its spread over the acitve time. You dont have 3 shakes each with 100g carbs

 

[Growman]

Awesome, clears up a lot for me. When you fast eat a real man when you can does that mean you can get away with no meal during the window the slin is active or is that not advised? I do if and normally train fasted unless using slin so I dont normally have a meal until 4-5 hrs post workout. Thanks

roast

You can even swap out the last shake for a meal. If you drink 2/3 of your shake and you are already home and have chicken and rice prepared you dont need to choke down the shake and eat the meal. As long as you get in enough total carbs.

And i always suggest you eat a meal within 1-2 hours prior to taking the slin. If you are fasted it can creep up quick and by the time you start drinking your shake you could already be going a little hypo (happened to me once) If your blood sugar is not too low when you take the slin you will not be likely to go hypo fast.

 

[snowpatrol]

Awesome, clears up a lot for me. When you fast eat a real man when you can does that mean you can get away with no meal during the window the slin is active or is that not advised? I do if and normally train fasted unless using slin so I dont normally have a meal until 4-5 hrs post workout. Thanks

roast

You can even swap out the last shake for a meal. If you drink 2/3 of your shake and you are already home and have chicken and rice prepared you dont need to choke down the shake and eat the meal. As long as you get in enough total carbs.

And i always suggest you eat a meal within 1-2 hours prior to taking the slin. If you are fasted it can creep up quick and by the time you start drinking your shake you could already be going a little hypo (happened to me once) If your blood sugar is not too low when you take the slin you will not be likely to go hypo fast.

Yeah - don't wait 4-5hrs to eat, I meant if you had consumed ~10g of carbs per iu of humalog in a 1-2hr window, you'd be covered / safe for another hour while you drove home or to work & got some real food (though I would still have some glucose tabs on hand as a safety precaution...)

I'm boggled at guys who go more than 3hrs between meals in the first place...even in the offseason when I'm closer to 5000 calories I'm hungry every 100-150minutes max

 

[gotgame]

It seems like it could be useful for someone who gets bloating from dextrose containing shakes or it could definitely be useful for an athlete during a sports game or during a workout but im still a bit confused as to why this is the carb source of choice to use with humalog?

It has a slightly faster transit time through the stomach and causes less bloat although i imagine if you matched the osmolarity with dextrose it would probably be only 5-10% faster ( minutes) but you might need more volumewith dextrose given the branching nature of hbcd. but after it clears the stomach it will result in slow blood glucose spike then dextrose because it needs to be cleaved ( sorta like glycogen)

This somewhat prolonged spike with quick gastric clearance is really good for an athlete during a game but why are you looking for this when humalog is going to hit you in 20min and peak in 90? Wouldnt you want the glucose to be timed with the insulin and then be able to get another more prolonged spike in later with your second meal and or shake?

Or maybe its because it results in less bloating for some of you and allows you go have that 2nd meal/shake later on where previously you had difficulty. I mean its not THAT expensive, i just saw it for like 12 bucks a lb but thats still 4x dextrose

 

[NY Muscle]

I stumbled across Mike Arnold talking a out HBCD. This is some good shit!:

"The foundation of thisprogram rests on the specific type of macros used. Without them, every single other component/aspectof this program is negatively affected and in some cases rendered ineffectivealtogether. High molecular weightcarbohydrates, such as branched chain cyclic dextrins, have been shown to besuperior to any other form of carbohydrate in multiple ways, such as: 1) A much faster rate of digestion andassimilation. 2) Improved glycogen compensation. 3) Enhanced insulin release. 4) The ability to pull other nutrients intocirculation at a more rapid rate (vacuum effect). 5) The inability to cause intestinal waterretention, unlike other forms of carbohydrates, such as dextrose &maltodextrin. The result is zerobloating, no indigestion, and a tighter midsection. 6) The ability to initiate an osmotic affectat the cellular level, in which the balance of water is shifted in favor of themuscle cell & bloodstream and away from the subcutaneous region (the resultis a fuller, drier physique). 7) Less likely to add bodyfat. Using other forms of carbohydrates will bringinferior results and therefore, it is not advised that the individual usesubstitutions for this part of the program."