Dextrose, Karbolyn or Vitargo after Insulin?

[snowpatrol]

For me, the acute reason is the lack of bloating compared to when I used dextrose - the only reason I thought to try it though was when I began using mountaindog programming & reading/following john's intra-workout nutrition crusade...so in conjunction with the lack of bloating, my training recovery, particularly has gone through the roof (with and without exo slin) probably not just due to the switch to HBCD but adding first hydrolized caseinate and now EAAs instead

 

[gotgame]

I stumbled across Mike Arnold talking a out HBCD. This is some good shit!:

"The foundation of thisprogram rests on the specific type of macros used. Without them, every single other component/aspectof this program is negatively affected and in some cases rendered ineffectivealtogether. High molecular weightcarbohydrates, such as branched chain cyclic dextrins, have been shown to besuperior to any other form of carbohydrate in multiple ways, such as: 1) A much faster rate of digestion andassimilation. 2) Improved glycogen compensation. 3) Enhanced insulin release. 4) The ability to pull other nutrients intocirculation at a more rapid rate (vacuum effect). 5) The inability to cause intestinal waterretention, unlike other forms of carbohydrates, such as dextrose &maltodextrin. The result is zerobloating, no indigestion, and a tighter midsection. 6) The ability to initiate an osmotic affectat the cellular level, in which the balance of water is shifted in favor of themuscle cell & bloodstream and away from the subcutaneous region (the resultis a fuller, drier physique). 7) Less likely to add bodyfat. Using other forms of carbohydrates will bringinferior results and therefore, it is not advised that the individual usesubstitutions for this part of the program."

?? NYmuscle i respect both you and Mike Arnold. I am a bit confused by some of that.

1. Its has faster gastric clearance but i dont think it would have faster digestion because it has to be broken down into glucose first through different enzymatic steps. This is certainly a benefit of hbcd in certain situations but i dont see how its has "faster assimilation". Remember we are also talking about in the presence of high insulin levels from the humalog, this will also decrease gastric emptying times both everything

2.improved glycogen compensation? Yea id buy that. more prolonged digestion rates and lower but more prolonged insulin leaves would probably results in that. Again we are taking insulin so i doubt this will result in any additional glycogen saturation in the "enhanced" athlete taking insulin over dextrose

3. enhanced insulin release? Compared to what? It should results in a lower insulin spike then dextrose. THis is quite good for someone not looking to gain fat and to use it as a post workout shake. But this is not important in someone taking insulin at like 10ius of humalog and i think the insulin effect is probably different then what you just stated.

4. Not sure what that means.

5. yes that is true. Osmolarity shifts will cause that.

6. ?? uhhh how would that be possible. Isnt hbcd just broken down to glucose?? I just looked at the structure and its just a cyclic ring of glucose molecules for the most part.

7. This is true. But this is when your not considering the use with humalog. Again i think this would be a decent supplement to add to a post workout shake ur intraworkout drink for someone not using humalog.




My impressions are HBCD are a good choice for intraworkout shakes, post workout shakes or definitely for athletes but so far isnt making much sense to use with humalog unless dextrose bloats you too much then sure it will help with that.


EDIT: Let me add after looking at this for the last few minutes i really think i will pick some up to add to my workout drink. It could be beneficial and im not trying to spike my insulin so much and yes i do experience some minor bloat from dextrose over 60-80 grams

 

[NY Muscle]

I like HBCD because how easy it is on the stomach all the other benefits Mike lists are cool buy I was a fan before I knew of little details Mike outlines.

One thing though...I did research a while back and HBCDs do not illicit a big insulin spike but since we are using slin it doesn't matter.

Would love to get Mike Arnold in on this discussion.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk 2

 

[gotgame]

I like HBCD because how easy it is on the stomach all the other benefits Mike lists are cool buy I was a fan before I knew of little details Mike outlines.

One thing though...I did research a while back and HBCDs do not illicit a big insulin spike but since we are using slin it doesn't matter.

Would love to get Mike Arnold in on this discussion.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk 2

Yea i will be honest sometimes I have a shake full of dextrose and some protein and im full for a while. I can see how some people who take humalog could find that being a bit annoying to say the least.

Yea i dont imagine they would result in a big insulin spike. Thats part of the reason I want to use it! The way which i think it is beneficial is it being a complex-ish type carb but not too complex and allowing for more prolonged glucose uptake which is good for athletes and longer insulin release. Not sure what Mike Arnold meant when he said" enhanced insulin release".

Not sure if does everything i see people claim. In my opinion its quite simply a branched glucose molecule that results in less bloating and more sustained glucose levels, its benefits are based around that...nothing more nothing less.

 

[gotgame]

I generally try stay out of the marketing side of things but i just looked at the label of prime nutrition intra-MD. I think overall its probably a good product but the marketing is slightly misleading. What they didnt tell you is you are only talking about a few minutes difference in clearance if the carbohydrate content is the same as that is more important then osmolarity. While some of what is said is "true" its not like your drinking mrs butterworth syrup post workout, maybe before you were just adding 50grams dextrose to 32oz of water

the entire first paragraph under the HBCD part of the label is a bit of marketing as it wont make THAT much of a difference. And keep in mind once you mix it with anything other then water and something like peptopro then you are gonna miss out on any of the small benefits. Im sure all of you on here already know that though.

I plan on adding it to water and drinking it while i workout.

I am not in anyway bashing that product so please dont start PMing me with nonsense, im simply saying things are a bit exaggerated on the label or maybe im just perceiving it that way. Overall i do think it is a good product.

 

[dnab87]

I personally follow Meadows pre workout meal of cream of rice then use Mike Arnolds insulin protcol for humalog. Along with adding all the goodies to my intra shake and pre workout shake. I also do 1 "large shake" in the same container you have.

1-1.25 hour post workout ill then have a whole meal 4oz chicken 4oz steak 6oz sweet potato brocoli and a huge salad.

 

[Growman]

I personally follow Meadows pre workout meal of cream of rice then use Mike Arnolds insulin protcol for humalog. Along with adding all the goodies to my intra shake and pre workout shake. I also do 1 "large shake" in the same container you have.

1-1.25 hour post workout ill then have a whole meal 4oz chicken 4oz steak 6oz sweet potato brocoli and a huge salad.

Yeah if i havent eaten in a few hours ill eat some cream of rice so i have carbs in me before the slin. All this slin talk i might jump back on it sooner rather than later.

 

[gulfcoast]

I think some people over complicate this shit and yes, some marketing is involved with these newer products.

 

[Mike Arnold]

Yes that's Mike Arnold's protocol and it's THE protocol but some of us just don't want a ton of carbs based on our body type and metabolism and goals. I only like one big shake and not 3 medium shakes that Mike calls for.

But 10 grams of carbs per iu of slin is standard and I like to vary from 7-10. Based on each persons sensitivity I think Mike would agree to those numbers.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk 2

My opinions have changed over the years. Keep in mind, that protocol, while effective, was written years ago and for that reason, it is somewhat outdated. HBCD's weren't even out back then.

One thing that has changed is the 3 shakes thing. The entire point of having 3 shakes was to ensure that nutrients are in circulation throughout the entire training window (which ranges from the start of training until a couple hours afterward).

However, now I just recommend mixing up one big shake and drinking 1/3rd of it at the start of training, 1/3rd half-way through, and the last 1/3rd right after training is finished. It accomplishes the same goal, but you don't have to deal with 3 different shake containers, or making new shakes during training, which is a pain in the ass.

Of course, you can also just sip on the entire shake throughout training, but some guys don't drink it very evenly, so by timing it like that you make sure nutrients are flowing in optimal quantities the entire time.

 

[Mike Arnold]

So 10g carbs per iu for you is total carbs? The ask because different people say different things here. One well known protocol calls for three shakes with 10g carb per iu each so it comes out to 30g an iu overall. Unless I'm misinterpreting.



roast

You should NOT base your carb intake on your insulin dose, which is what guys did for years and is the WRONG way to look at it. Consuming the smallest amount of carbs required to cover your insulin dose is a good way to KILL your gains. Now, pre-contest is a different story, as fat loss is the priority, but when it comes to off-season mass-building, consuming only enough carbs to cover your insulin dose is going to be horribly insufficient in almost all cases.

Think about it. The average off-season bodybuilder will consume between 400-800 grams of carbs per day, and with 1/3rd to 1/2 of his daily carbs consumed during the training window (the training window ranges from the start of training until a few hours afterward). That is a lot of carbs--between 133 to 500 grams.

Not a single bodybuilder who requires 400-800 grams of carbs per day is going to be able to maximize recovery and growth by consuming only 50-75 grams of carbs during the training window. Yet, I see guys doing it all the time--because they are trying to match their carb intake to their insulin dose. They don't want to consume one more gram than is necessary to cover their 10 IU, or 15 IU, or whatever it is. That is idiotic. Why consume an insufficient amount of carbs just because you chose to use 10 IU, or 15 IU of insulin?

So, rather than basing your carb intake on your insulin dose, you should base your insulin dose on your carb intake. Of course, this doesn't necessarily mean you should take as much insulin as you possibly can without going hypo, but it does mean your carb intake should be optimized first, after which you are free to determine your insulin dose.

Lots of guys will use 10-15 IU of Humulin R pre-training, but with optimal carb intake being so board, using some predetermined ratio is completely freaking senseless!!!!

The only time you should use a predetermined ratio is when fat loss is the priority and you have progressed far enough in your diet to where your carb intake is low. For example, if someone is dieting hard and only eating 150 grams of carb per day, they might only be consuming 50-100 grams of carbs during the training window. Therefore, they will need to make sure their slin dose is not too high for their carb intake. This is the only time ratios come into play.

In the off-season, when trying to grow, ratios have no place, as basically everyone will be consuming way more than enough carbs to cover their slin dose. As another example, if someone is consuming 300 grams of carbs during the off-season training window and using Humulin R, they could chose to use 10 IU, 20 IU, 30 IU, etc (Note: there are numerous factors which determine optimal dose). Regardless of which dose they select, their carb intake will still be high enough to cover it (assuming they are spreading their carbs out throughout the entire window, like they should be).

This means ratios could be all over the place from one person to the next. You could have 3 guys, all of whom consume 300 grams of carbs during the training window, but one guy might use 10 IU of slin, another 20 IU, and another 30 IU. Their ratios would be 30:1, 15:1, and 10:1, respectively, but all of them would still be consuming the correct amount of carbs to maximize recovery and growth. The only variable is how much slin they chose to use, which again, was completely independent of their carb intake.

This shows why ratios don't mean shit. The bodybuilder's carb intake is predetermined. Just because he uses a certain insulin dose, it doesn't mean he should start changing his carb intake because his carb intake was determined based on his metabolic needs, while his slin dose was based on a variety of factors, such as insulin sensitivity, level of comfort, etc.

Of course, all this is assuming that the bodybuilder never uses more insulin than his carb intake can handle. To that I respond by saying--an off-season bodybuilder should NEVER NEED to use more insulin that what his carb intake can handle. Off-season carb intake is already so high that using an insulin dose beyond that would be completely unnecessary.




Note: All of this is based on the use of regular human insulin (Humulin R/Novolin R) immediately pre-training. RHI stays active the entire training window, so all the carbs a bodybuilder eats during that time (which includes his peri-workout nutrition and his post-workout whole-food meal) will be available to the insulin.

If using fast-acting insulin pre-training, everything changes, as its peak activity is only a couple hours--maybe 3. While Humlin will release over 5-6 hours, giving the bodybuilder plenty of time to consume his 1/3rd to 1/2 of his daily carbs, but this is not the case with fast-acting insulins. A bodybuilder would need to consume all his carbs within the short time it is active, and very few bodybuilders should be eating that many carbs within just a couple hour period. The bodybuilder would be so bloated during training from all the carbs, he couldn't even train properly. For this reason, fast-acting insulin doses are typically much lower--about 50% of a Humulin R/ Novolin r dose.

 

[Mike Arnold]

?? NYmuscle i respect both you and Mike Arnold. I am a bit confused by some of that.

1. Its has faster gastric clearance but i dont think it would have faster digestion because it has to be broken down into glucose first through different enzymatic steps. This is certainly a benefit of hbcd in certain situations but i dont see how its has "faster assimilation". Remember we are also talking about in the presence of high insulin levels from the humalog, this will also decrease gastric emptying times both everything
You're right--I wasn't very clear on that. When I said "digestion" and "assimilation", it really wasn't explained very well. By digestion I was referring to the speed at which the carb exits the stomach, when in reality the word "digestion" refers to the entire digestive process. Assimilation does begin more quickly with high molecular weight carbs because they reach the small intestine faster, but their total intestinal absorption rate can vary depending on the degree of complexity. Before I go any further, let me further clarify the benefits of HBCD's and all high molecular weight carbs.

The primary benefit of high molecular weight carbs is that they clear the stomach very rapidly. This prevents bloating, gas, diversion of blood away from working muscles, etc.

As far as absorption from the small intestine goes, absorption rates can vary depending on what type of high molecular weight carb is being consumed. Some are assimilated (i.e. absorbed by the small intestine) much faster than others. There are complex and simple high molecular weight carbs, and they can vary quite a bit in terms of complexity. While I like HBCD's (a type of high molecular weight carb) a lot, I personally do not necessarily think they are the "best". I believe a combination of highly complex and simple high molecular weight carbs are ideal. This provides a more sustained absorption of carbs into the bloodstream from the small intestine. HBCD's are a "'simple" high molecular weight carb.



2.improved glycogen compensation? Yea id buy that. more prolonged digestion rates and lower but more prolonged insulin leaves would probably results in that. Again we are taking insulin so i doubt this will result in any additional glycogen saturation in the "enhanced" athlete taking insulin over dextrose
I clarified this above.

In regards to the second part of your comment, you are wrong. Regardless of whether a bodybuilder uses insulin or not, carb type will have a definite influence on the rate of glycogen restoration.


3. enhanced insulin release? Compared to what? It should results in a lower insulin spike then dextrose. THis is quite good for someone not looking to gain fat and to use it as a post workout shake. But this is not important in someone taking insulin at like 10ius of humalog and i think the insulin effect is probably different then what you just stated.
Good question--compared to what? When I made that comment, I was referring to some of the older, low molecular weight, complex carb powders. These days, with there being so many different kinds of high molecular weight carbs on the market, and with these carbs varying significantly in terms of absorption rate from the small intestine, this comment is meaningless without context.

Besides, for guys who use insulin, this does not really matter.


4. Not sure what that means.
I'll explain. High molecular weight carbs have a low osmolality. Osmolality is related to the osmolality of the blood, which is about mOsm/kg in humans. a solution that has a lower osmolality than blood is referred to as hypotonic. the more hypotonic a solution is, the faster is passes through the stomach into the small intestine.

Now, if you add supplements to the solution (carb drink) which have a high degree of solubility (ultra-micronized creatine, leucine, etc) they will be pulled into the small intestine with the rest of the solution. That is what I was referring to when i used the term "vacuum effect".



5. yes that is true. Osmolarity shifts will cause that.

6. ?? uhhh how would that be possible. Isnt hbcd just broken down to glucose?? I just looked at the structure and its just a cyclic ring of glucose molecules for the most part.
Any time we consume a carb and glucose is brought into the muscle cell, it is going to draw water in with it, having an osmotic effect. However, my comment was based on the observation of contest ready bodybuilders undergoing carb loading with different kinds of carbohydrates.

All bodybuilders have found that different types of carbs seem to result in different levels of muscle fullness and sub-q water retention. This is why some carbs are chosen over other for pre-contest carb loading. For example, consuming a bunch of dextrose tends to cause a lot of sub-q water retention, while carbs such as Karbolyn or Vitargo don't (HBCD's would also be included on this list). This is why competitors were using carbs like this even back during Ronnie's reign--because they tended to make the competitor fuller and drier compared to some other types of carbs.

Even off-season bodybuilders have experienced this innumerable times. I remember when guys used to consume an EAS product called Phosphagen. Each serving contained 30 grams of dextrose, and EAS would recommend consuming 5 servings per day for the first week. Boy oh boy--talk about water retention. That shit was turning guys into whales within days. We saw a similar effect with Cell-Tech, especially the guys taking 2 servings per day. Within 1 week the bodybuilder would be holding so much sub-q water it was ridiculous.

Now, obviously, these guys were also experiencing extreme muscle fullness because they were introducing large amounts of creatine into the system, but without the creatine in the mix, the only thing they would have experienced was a whole lot of water retention. Anyone who disputes this can try the following experiment.

Consume dextrose all week as your sole carb source--the same amount of carbs you would normally eat. Aside from becoming borderline diabetic, you will not only lose muscle fullness, but you will be bloated to all hell. On the other hand, try the same experiment with brown rice and you experience improved muscle fullness with much less water retention.

It's the same with high molecular weight carbs compared to the old-school dextrose. High molecular weight carbs tend to make you fuller and drier.




7. This is true. But this is when your not considering the use with humalog. Again i think this would be a decent supplement to add to a post workout shake ur intraworkout drink for someone not using humalog.

Obviously, insulin is going to blunt fat loss, but you're comment is not completely accurate. There are two factors to consider when it comes to fat accumulation under these circumstances. These are the dose and type of insulin used relative to the amount of carbohydrate consumed.

High molecular weight carbs are still less likely to cause fat gain. Whether or not this advantage is eliminated or not will depend on the above.

Now, if you are implying that carb type doesn't matter in insulin users, and that HBCD's are not any more effective for insulin users than something like dextrose, then you are way off base. I hope you're not implying that, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.



My impressions are HBCD are a good choice for intraworkout shakes, post workout shakes or definitely for athletes but so far isnt making much sense to use with humalog unless dextrose bloats you too much then sure it will help with that.


EDIT: Let me add after looking at this for the last few minutes i really think i will pick some up to add to my workout drink. It could be beneficial and im not trying to spike my insulin so much and yes i do experience some minor bloat from dextrose over 60-80 grams

........

 

[Mike Arnold]

I like HBCD because how easy it is on the stomach all the other benefits Mike lists are cool buy I was a fan before I knew of little details Mike outlines.

One thing though...I did research a while back and HBCDs do not illicit a big insulin spike but since we are using slin it doesn't matter.

Would love to get Mike Arnold in on this discussion.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk 2

It depends on what you are comparing them to. Also, when I made that comment a while back, I assumed all high molecular weight carbs were equal in terms of insulin response--they're not. They can vary substantially in terms of insulin release. HBCD's are what I would call moderately insulinogenic. They still provide a pretty big insulin spike compared to many other types of carbs, but it is much less insulinogenic than something like dextrose. Of course, this doesn't matter when using insulin. Or, more accurately, I should say it doesn't matter as much.

 

[NY Muscle]

Awesome responses Mike, thanks for coming to this thread and thanks for creating your pre-workout Humalog protocol, I am really enjoying it.

I have read hundreds of pages on slin use recently so got a very very good grasp, just have a few question I can't really get definite answers too and I know some other guys have questions like these. If you have the time would love to read your replies:


When using Metformin it used on non workout/non insulin days? If so how many times a day and with/before/after a meal? 500mg a pop?

From what I have read, on non workout/non slin days 500mg of Metformin with a carb meal seems standard up to 3 times a day?

Do people take it on insulin/workout days? if so same questions above.

If someone has access to Metformin should we not bother using other glucose disposal agents? (GDA). If you use the gda's as well how much when and how often? I have some good ones.

Your shake protocol calls for 500mg of Potassium, the pills I have are 595mg (99m Potasium Gluconate) so is that fine the 595 OR I need 5 pills (5x99mg).

I don't like having more than 75gms of carbs in my intra shake so I start with that then figure out my insulin needs which is about 10iu. My question is - what is better to have more carbs and less insulin or
less carbs and more insulin? If the goal is no fat gain which scenario is the best with regards to iu's and grams of carbs? is it a bad thing to have too many carbs or a bad thing to have too little (lets say you don't go hypo on lowerish carbs).


Is there anything else one can take/eat etc to maximize Insulin's benefits (while avoiding fat gain). For instance is there a benefit to use Glucose Disposal Agents on workout/slin days? if so when would we fit that into the day.

I am sure GH plays a role in an ideal insulin protocol and I am still thinking about it (haven't used it since the 90s)

Thanks Mike.

 

[Mike Arnold]

I generally try stay out of the marketing side of things but i just looked at the label of prime nutrition intra-MD. I think overall its probably a good product but the marketing is slightly misleading. What they didnt tell you is you are only talking about a few minutes difference in clearance if the carbohydrate content is the same as that is more important then osmolarity. While some of what is said is "true" its not like your drinking mrs butterworth syrup post workout, maybe before you were just adding 50grams dextrose to 32oz of water
Sorry, but your comment is unintentionally misleading. Many guys have experienced noticeable benefits by consuming HBCD's over stuff like dextrose and other non-high molecular weight carbs. Not only does recovery & growth seem to be enhanced, but there is no bloating, indigestion, or gas associated with the use of HBCD's, like there often is with other carbs. The HBCD's are also superior in terms of glycogen restoration, they provide an vacuum effect, and are less likely to divert blood from muscle, etc.

Basically, HBCD's do everything better and posses multiple benefits not found with other carbs, many of which I talked about in my previous post.

Now, while switching to HBCD's isn't going to make you gain 10 lbs of muscle overnight, it will be beneficial in all of these areas. Many bodybuilders have already attested to this fact...and the science backs it up.



the entire first paragraph under the HBCD part of the label is a bit of marketing as it wont make THAT much of a difference. And keep in mind once you mix it with anything other then water and something like peptopro then you are gonna miss out on any of the small benefits. Im sure all of you on here already know that though.
With respect , this is not accurate either. Actually, HBCD's (and all other high molecular weight carbs) "should" be mixed with either hydrolyzed protein or micronized EAA's. You aren't going to "mis out" on its benefits by doing so. Rather, you will gain more overall benefit in terms of recovery and growth, while still being able to take advantage of all the benefits previously listed.

As any insulin user knows, consuming protein/amino acids WITH carbs is critical for optimizing recovery and growth via protein and glycogen synthesis. While hydrolyzed proteins do not exit the stomach as quickly as most high molecular weight carbs, they still exit the stomach very rapidly--much faster than any other protein source.

Yes, the rate at which HBCD's exit the stomach will be slowed slightly by the addition of hydrolyzed protein, but the overall absorption rate into the small intestine is still very fast. Since we should always include both carbs and proteins in our peri-workout shake anyway, the should be to find the combination of proteins and carbs which exit the stomach the fastest. That's what this combination accomplishes.

Just because the hydrolyzed proteins may slightly slow the absorption rate into the small intestine, we don't just give up and start drinking dextrose or adding casein protein to our HBCD's. Rather, we do the best we can--and this is the best we can. (note: micronized EAA's do not slow absorption of HBCD's into the small intestine at all).


I bodybuilding we are always looking to perfect our nutrition, and when it comes to peri-workout nutrition, the single best combination of nutrients is high molecular weight carbs and hydrolyzed protein/EAA's.





I plan on adding it to water and drinking it while i workout.

I am not in anyway bashing that product so please don't start PMing me with nonsense, i'm simply saying things are a bit exaggerated on the label or maybe im just perceiving it that way. Overall i do think it is a good product.
I certainly understand that exaggeration goes on in the marketing of bodybuilding supps, but I think in this case, perhaps your have been less than impressed because you were not aware of all the benefits and two, you have never used it.

....

 

[Mike Arnold]

Awesome responses Mike, thanks for coming to this thread and thanks for creating your pre-workout Humalog protocol, I am really enjoying it.

I have read hundreds of pages on slin use recently so got a very very good grasp, just have a few question I can't really get definite answers too and I know some other guys have questions like these. If you have the time would love to read your replies:


When using Metformin it used on non workout/non insulin days? If so how many times a day and with/before/after a meal? 500mg a pop?

From what I have read, on non workout/non slin days 500mg of Metformin with a carb meal seems standard up to 3 times a day?

Do people take it on insulin/workout days? if so same questions above.

If someone has access to Metformin should we not bother using other glucose disposal agents? (GDA). If you use the gda's as well how much when and how often? I have some good ones.

Your shake protocol calls for 500mg of Potassium, the pills I have are 595mg (99m Potasium Gluconate) so is that fine the 595 OR I need 5 pills (5x99mg).

I don't like having more than 75gms of carbs in my intra shake so I start with that then figure out my insulin needs which is about 10iu. My question is - what is better to have more carbs and less insulin or
less carbs and more insulin? If the goal is no fat gain which scenario is the best with regards to iu's and grams of carbs? is it a bad thing to have too many carbs or a bad thing to have too little (lets say you don't go hypo on lowerish carbs).


Is there anything else one can take/eat etc to maximize Insulin's benefits (while avoiding fat gain). For instance is there a benefit to use Glucose Disposal Agents on workout/slin days? if so when would we fit that into the day.

I am sure GH plays a role in an ideal insulin protocol and I am still thinking about it (haven't used it since the 90s)

Thanks Mike.

Will come back to this.

 

[NY Muscle]

Will come back to this.

Thanks and take your time. I'm heading to the gym now using your awesome protocol.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk 2

 

[PitbullTank]

Thanks MA, luv reading your posts on this topic... always learn a lot...

Never tried HBCDs to compare, i guess ill get some soon and try... Been using TNs Karboload or Karbolyn with MAs 3 shake protocol... everyone i know noticed the difference in 4 weeks... the only thing I've found is that i can't do volume leg workouts with the 2 shakes in me or i puke ( i puke often after legs, with or without shakes... shakes just make it worse lol) so on leg days i just do pre and post shakes...


Someone asked earlier about adding in glycerol... from what I've read glycerol is best used with your pre training meal an hour or so before training, then you need to drink a lil more water then usual so the glycerol can "load" the extra water intramuscularly...

 

[gotgame]

........

hopefully this doesnt get all confusing with the replies but my replies will be in bold


Originally Posted by gotgame View Post
?? NYmuscle i respect both you and Mike Arnold. I am a bit confused by some of that.

1. Its has faster gastric clearance but i dont think it would have faster digestion because it has to be broken down into glucose first through different enzymatic steps. This is certainly a benefit of hbcd in certain situations but i dont see how its has "faster assimilation". Remember we are also talking about in the presence of high insulin levels from the humalog, this will also decrease gastric emptying times both everything
You're right--I wasn't very clear on that. When I said "digestion" and "assimilation", it really wasn't explained very well. By digestion I was referring to the speed at which the carb exits the stomach, when in reality the word "digestion" refers to the entire digestive process. Assimilation does begin more quickly with high molecular weight carbs because they reach the small intestine faster, but their total intestinal absorption rate can vary depending on the degree of complexity. Before I go any further, let me further clarify the benefits of HBCD's and all high molecular weight carbs.

The primary benefit of high molecular weight carbs is that they clear the stomach very rapidly. This prevents bloating, gas, diversion of blood away from working muscles, etc. Agreed, i think that is one of benfits


As far as absorption from the small intestine goes, absorption rates can vary depending on what type of high molecular weight carb is being consumed. Some are assimilated (i.e. absorbed by the small intestine) much faster than others. There are complex and simple high molecular weight carbs, and they can vary quite a bit in terms of complexity. While I like HBCD's (a type of high molecular weight carb) a lot, I personally do not necessarily think they are the "best". I believe a combination of highly complex and simple high molecular weight carbs are ideal. This provides a more sustained absorption of carbs into the bloodstream from the small intestine. HBCD's are a "'simple" high molecular weight carb. agreed



2.improved glycogen compensation? Yea id buy that. more prolonged digestion rates and lower but more prolonged insulin leaves would probably results in that. Again we are taking insulin so i doubt this will result in any additional glycogen saturation in the "enhanced" athlete taking insulin over dextrose
I clarified this above.

In regards to the second part of your comment, you are wrong. Regardless of whether a bodybuilder uses insulin or not, carb type will have a definite influence on the rate of glycogen restoration.

I was comparing a cyclic dextrin to say dextrose, glycogen restoration rates should be mostly relative on available glucose in the blood and factors that stimulate gylcogen synethesis such as insulin. Now i think there is a difference in gylocogen synthesis between carb types without insulin being used but are you telling me that 100grams of cyclic vs 100grams of dextrose plus 10 iu humalog for both will result in greater glycogen being made with the cyclic group? Not sure how that would be possible

3. enhanced insulin release? Compared to what? It should results in a lower insulin spike then dextrose. THis is quite good for someone not looking to gain fat and to use it as a post workout shake. But this is not important in someone taking insulin at like 10ius of humalog and i think the insulin effect is probably different then what you just stated.
Good question--compared to what? When I made that comment, I was referring to some of the older, low molecular weight, complex carb powders. These days, with there being so many different kinds of high molecular weight carbs on the market, and with these carbs varying significantly in terms of absorption rate from the small intestine, this comment is meaningless without context.

Besides, for guys who use insulin, this does not really matter. thank you


4. Not sure what that means.
I'll explain. High molecular weight carbs have a low osmolality. Osmolality is related to the osmolality of the blood, which is about mOsm/kg in humans. a solution that has a lower osmolality than blood is referred to as hypotonic. the more hypotonic a solution is, the faster is passes through the stomach into the small intestine.

Now, if you add supplements to the solution (carb drink) which have a high degree of solubility (ultra-micronized creatine, leucine, etc) they will be pulled into the small intestine with the rest of the solution. That is what I was referring to when i used the term "vacuum effect".

ahh ok, you are talking about just decreasing the overall omolarity of teh stomach contents to allow for quick transport to the small bowel, i thought you were talking about uptake in the brush border so i was confused


5. yes that is true. Osmolarity shifts will cause that.

6. ?? uhhh how would that be possible. Isnt hbcd just broken down to glucose?? I just looked at the structure and its just a cyclic ring of glucose molecules for the most part.
Any time we consume a carb and glucose is brought into the muscle cell, it is going to draw water in with it, having an osmotic effect. However, my comment was based on the observation of contest ready bodybuilders undergoing carb loading with different kinds of carbohydrates.

All bodybuilders have found that different types of carbs seem to result in different levels of muscle fullness and sub-q water retention. This is why some carbs are chosen over other for pre-contest carb loading. For example, consuming a bunch of dextrose tends to cause a lot of sub-q water retention, while carbs such as Karbolyn or Vitargo don't (HBCD's would also be included on this list). This is why competitors were using carbs like this even back during Ronnie's reign--because they tended to make the competitor fuller and drier compared to some other types of carbs.

Even off-season bodybuilders have experienced this innumerable times. I remember when guys used to consume an EAS product called Phosphagen. Each serving contained 30 grams of dextrose, and EAS would recommend consuming 5 servings per day for the first week. Boy oh boy--talk about water retention. That shit was turning guys into whales within days. We saw a similar effect with Cell-Tech, especially the guys taking 2 servings per day. Within 1 week the bodybuilder would be holding so much sub-q water it was ridiculous.

Now, obviously, these guys were also experiencing extreme muscle fullness because they were introducing large amounts of creatine into the system, but without the creatine in the mix, the only thing they would have experienced was a whole lot of water retention. Anyone who disputes this can try the following experiment.

Consume dextrose all week as your sole carb source--the same amount of carbs you would normally eat. Aside from becoming borderline diabetic, you will not only lose muscle fullness, but you will be bloated to all hell. On the other hand, try the same experiment with brown rice and you experience improved muscle fullness with much less water retention.

It's the same with high molecular weight carbs compared to the old-school dextrose. High molecular weight carbs tend to make you fuller and drier.

yes i will agree with that for someone not taking insulin. the very simple explanation for that is the insulin spike. Since your glucose is taken up by a Na transporter in the small bowel and insulin causes renal resorption of Na that would be my best explanation for the bloat seen with carbs that cause an insulin spike. But how would that be any different when someone is taking humalog 2-3 x a day? Not sure cyclic dextrins vs dextrose would result in any less or more Na uptake then each other


7. This is true. But this is when your not considering the use with humalog. Again i think this would be a decent supplement to add to a post workout shake ur intraworkout drink for someone not using humalog.

Obviously, insulin is going to blunt fat loss, but you're comment is not completely accurate. There are two factors to consider when it comes to fat accumulation under these circumstances. These are the dose and type of insulin used relative to the amount of carbohydrate consumed.

High molecular weight carbs are still less likely to cause fat gain. Whether or not this advantage is eliminated or not will depend on the above.

Now, if you are implying that carb type doesn't matter in insulin users, and that HBCD's are not any more effective for insulin users than something like dextrose, then you are way off base. I hope you're not implying that, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. When an HBCD is transported to the small bowel, it is then borken down into glucose components correct? Well once this happens the local osmolarity is going to go up linearly with the number of cleavages but then its simply being broken down to glucose and being taken up although at a slower rate (overall) then something like dextrose. So if the end result is to have both glucose and amino acids available in your blood for the duration of humalog ( onset 20 min peak 90) why would cyclic dextrins which still be broken down to glucose offer any added benefit after its already broken down?? Maybe it might over a more sustained glucose supply for something like humalin but based on the timing we are talking about i dont see an added benefit



hopefully the formatting isnt off too much.

 

[gotgame]

....

Originally Posted by gotgame View Post
I generally try stay out of the marketing side of things but i just looked at the label of prime nutrition intra-MD. I think overall its probably a good product but the marketing is slightly misleading. What they didnt tell you is you are only talking about a few minutes difference in clearance if the carbohydrate content is the same as that is more important then osmolarity. While some of what is said is "true" its not like your drinking mrs butterworth syrup post workout, maybe before you were just adding 50grams dextrose to 32oz of water
Sorry, but your comment is unintentionally misleading. Many guys have experienced noticeable benefits by consuming HBCD's over stuff like dextrose and other non-high molecular weight carbs. Not only does recovery & growth seem to be enhanced, but there is no bloating, indigestion, or gas associated with the use of HBCD's, like there often is with other carbs. The HBCD's are also superior in terms of glycogen restoration, they provide an vacuum effect, and are less likely to divert blood from muscle, etc.

Basically, HBCD's do everything better and posses multiple benefits not found with other carbs, many of which I talked about in my previous post.

Now, while switching to HBCD's isn't going to make you gain 10 lbs of muscle overnight, it will be beneficial in all of these areas. Many bodybuilders have already attested to this fact...and the science backs it up.

I do think that the have some benefits such as bloating as i said before, but how much of a difference in gastric emptying times are you really talking about once you mix it with everything? A few minutes??

the entire first paragraph under the HBCD part of the label is a bit of marketing as it wont make THAT much of a difference. And keep in mind once you mix it with anything other then water and something like peptopro then you are gonna miss out on any of the small benefits. Im sure all of you on here already know that though.
With respect , this is not accurate either. Actually, HBCD's (and all other high molecular weight carbs) "should" be mixed with either hydrolyzed protein or micronized EAA's. You aren't going to "mis out" on its benefits by doing so. Rather, you will gain more overall benefit in terms of recovery and growth, while still being able to take advantage of all the benefits previously listed. Right but once you do that sure your total osmolarity is going to be slightly less then if you used a dextrose based solution but how many minutes difference do you think it makes? And then once it gets to the small bowel it has to wait to be broken down. There might be an added benefit of getting some amino acids to the small bowel quicker but even if dextrose takes longer to clear the stomach it doesnt have to be broken down as much as HBCD. Im talking about this in terms of insulin users not the average person, for MYSELF i would prefer something like HBCD as i dont like the insulin spike

As any insulin user knows, consuming protein/amino acids WITH carbs is critical for optimizing recovery and growth via protein and glycogen synthesis. While hydrolyzed proteins do not exit the stomach as quickly as most high molecular weight carbs, they still exit the stomach very rapidly--much faster than any other protein source. Yes that is true, i agree that amino or hydrolyzed proteins are good to use in the periworkout peroid, in reality it probably doesnt make a ton of difference to a non insulin user but someone using humalog would definitely benefit

Yes, the rate at which HBCD's exit the stomach will be slowed slightly by the addition of hydrolyzed protein, but the overall absorption rate into the small intestine is still very fast. Since we should always include both carbs and proteins in our peri-workout shake anyway, the should be to find the combination of proteins and carbs which exit the stomach the fastest. That's what this combination accomplishes. right but how much faster are we really talking? Ive seen a few studies showing minutes faster for 10% cyclic solutions but once you add all that in how much more do you expect?

Just because the hydrolyzed proteins may slightly slow the absorption rate into the small intestine, we don't just give up and start drinking dextrose or adding casein protein to our HBCD's. Rather, we do the best we can--and this is the best we can. (note: micronized EAA's do not slow absorption of HBCD's into the small intestine at all). do you really think a few minutes of faster clearance is worth paying more? Not as an overall as i think for someone using it because of bloat its useful but even if you get a few quicker minutes of stomach clearance to me i sorta think of it as someone speeding to get to a red light. Once it clears the stomach its just going to have to wait to be broken down, but i do see some added benefit for amino acids getting to the small bowel a little quick but its not THAT much faster


I bodybuilding we are always looking to perfect our nutrition, and when it comes to peri-workout nutrition, the single best combination of nutrients is high molecular weight carbs and hydrolyzed protein/EAA's.





I plan on adding it to water and drinking it while i workout.

I am not in anyway bashing that product so please don't start PMing me with nonsense, i'm simply saying things are a bit exaggerated on the label or maybe im just perceiving it that way. Overall i do think it is a good product.
I certainly understand that exaggeration goes on in the marketing of bodybuilding supps, but I think in this case, perhaps your have been less than impressed because you were not aware of all the benefits and two, you have never used it. We have all been around long enough to see products come and go over the years. I do think its a good product for the average user who gets bloat and definitely for an athlete during a game. I havent used it before but ill try it as for 12 bucks a lb i think i can afford it lol

 

[Bio-hazard]

Thank you for posting Mike Arnold. FOR ME.... this is all overkill as I'm not competing or even looking to add a ton more weight. Just a little, keep muscles full and stay lean. I can grow on what most guys would consider low carbs anyways so for me, doing something simple as dextrose post workout with Humalog or Novalog is ideal. However I will be picking up some Glycofuse and dosing those carbs accordingly to my IUs. (but not overkill) Thank you for all the information