DNS 193 podcast: Actual Pro Cycles & How They Retain Muscle

[massnup]

Emeric Delczeg is a guy who is bad at explaining things clearly and plainly but he said something about Ronnie just using a little test as an amateur before he really hit the gas. At least that's how I read it, but like I said, he is notoriously poor at communication so he may have meant something else entirely lol. But let's say that's the story, most would say he was natural even despite some minor juicing. But it's not minor to me lol, those first few milligrams would be what had the most impact overall. Just my opinion. Does it matter, is it worth thinking about and discussing? Well apparently it is to me because I've discussed it for decades lol, I would actually pay to know the exact details just for my own curiosity being an obsessive bodybuilding "fan." Most definitely I would say this curiosity has absolutely nothing to do with trying to explain my own bodybuiöding failures, to have some type of "excuse." Nothing at all, I'm a guy who believes in the primacy of genetics more than the absolute majority.

I mentioned an "effective" range of PED use. Even many here who call out the "lies" believe there's a vast difference in response to PEDs where some guys get away with way less than others. My perspective isn't quite that. I think we can actually generalise quite a bit. We can see average PED use ranges within bodybuilding. We can see average PED use ranges and use of classes of drugs (meaning not just steroids but classes like growth hormone and insulin) and their effect on average weight of the competitors over time. That's why we can call BS with pretty high certainty on certain cited dosages. Like it's highly unlikely someone is below a certain milligram level or that someone on a certain development level has omitted a class of drugs alltogether (like insulin). We can say competitor X didn't use just 2 ccs of test at his peak for example. Despite genetic differences there are still more similarities. I'd think most would agree with this but apparently they don't. Like Milos can say to someone, like mentioned in this thread, if you want to do well on a national level you will have to play with certain substances as a rule, but then he will also say some pros have done well as naturals (he's given a few examples apart from Ronnie). In these cases I don't know what's going on, if these guys really believe it or what. Regarding PED responses Milos used to say insulin would give about 30lbs of stage weight on average and how the sudden increase in weight of the average competitor was all due to this one drug.

Variability yes, but if you look at the PDR it won't say for headache some may need 10mg of aspirin whereas others need a gram. There's an effective range that applies to humans in general.

The other day I was on IG and there was some clip where an advanced bb said he used just 400mg of test. Steve Kucklo said the guy was full of shit. Steve is a guy who was said to have alien genetics and there were arguments here on promuscle back in the day about whether he was natural or close to it as a teen and a couple of prominent guys we all know said he was clean. And Steve most likely does have abnormal genetics. But even he called bullshit on this other guy who I assume he doesn't even know.

Steve Kuclo trained DC style for quite a few years also if that makes any difference tho.

 

[juggy38]

I am biased. Full tilt. But I’ve been following dusty since posts on Intense muscle. (I’m old). In all that time, I never saw him post anything related to “pushing” the dose, or…”trying high dose tren!” In his posts or logs.

He says he has shitty genetics…..he might have a poor “body builder shape”. But the man is a god damn human forklift. Barbell rows with 4 plates….RDL rep day with 5 plates….

I think dusty has great genetics for adding size, trains like a lunatic, and ate his ass off for years. Yea, maybe he’s been past 2g a little more
Than he lets on, but I think the gist is….you don’t need 2.5g to compete in men’s physique.

 

[Elvia1023]

Emeric Delczeg is a guy who is bad at explaining things clearly and plainly but he said something about Ronnie just using a little test as an amateur before he really hit the gas. At least that's how I read it, but like I said, he is notoriously poor at communication so he may have meant something else entirely lol. But let's say that's the story, most would say he was natural even despite some minor juicing. But it's not minor to me lol, those first few milligrams would be what had the most impact overall. Just my opinion. Does it matter, is it worth thinking about and discussing? Well apparently it is to me because I've discussed it for decades lol, I would actually pay to know the exact details just for my own curiosity being an obsessive bodybuilding "fan." Most definitely I would say this curiosity has absolutely nothing to do with trying to explain my own bodybuiöding failures, to have some type of "excuse." Nothing at all, I'm a guy who believes in the primacy of genetics more than the absolute majority.

I mentioned an "effective" range of PED use. Even many here who call out the "lies" believe there's a vast difference in response to PEDs where some guys get away with way less than others. My perspective isn't quite that. I think we can actually generalise quite a bit. We can see average PED use ranges within bodybuilding. We can see average PED use ranges and use of classes of drugs (meaning not just steroids but classes like growth hormone and insulin) and their effect on average weight of the competitors over time. That's why we can call BS with pretty high certainty on certain cited dosages. Like it's highly unlikely someone is below a certain milligram level or that someone on a certain development level has omitted a class of drugs alltogether (like insulin). We can say competitor X didn't use just 2 ccs of test at his peak for example. Despite genetic differences there are still more similarities. I'd think most would agree with this but apparently they don't. Like Milos can say to someone, like mentioned in this thread, if you want to do well on a national level you will have to play with certain substances as a rule, but then he will also say some pros have done well as naturals (he's given a few examples apart from Ronnie). In these cases I don't know what's going on, if these guys really believe it or what. Regarding PED responses Milos used to say insulin would give about 30lbs of stage weight on average and how the sudden increase in weight of the average competitor was all due to this one drug.

Variability yes, but if you look at the PDR it won't say for headache some may need 10mg of aspirin whereas others need a gram. There's an effective range that applies to humans in general.

The other day I was on IG and there was some clip where an advanced bb said he used just 400mg of test. Steve Kucklo said the guy was full of shit. Steve is a guy who was said to have alien genetics and there were arguments here on promuscle back in the day about whether he was natural or close to it as a teen and a couple of prominent guys we all know said he was clean. And Steve most likely does have abnormal genetics. But even he called bullshit on this other guy who I assume he doesn't even know.

I was surprised myself when Emeric stated that because he is always on the extreme low side when it comes to BB's and doses. He did say Ronnie was using test and he didn't turn pro naturally but as you stated perhaps he just mixed up his wording. Some guys equate elite genetics with low doses and whilst they could use low doses it doesn't mean they do just because they have elite genetics.

I would bet Ronnie wasn't completely natural when he turned pro. He was a police officer and it's in the US you really think they are going to say it publicly so they had to carry on the lie. I have seen Ronnie say he was drug free at his peak when he was winning the O every year when asked on camera. That doesn't mean I don't think people can't look incredible on no drugs I just don't believe Ronnie's story.

I do believe Kai Greene was natural but it's impossible to know for sure. Maybe he wasn't but he could have been looking at him. He was small he just has incredible genetics so it wouldn't surprise me if he was natural because it's been said many times. Kai is a perfect example of both sides in many ways because he has the most insane genetics for bodybuilding and he could be one of the rare ones that turned pro natural. However, it's fairly common knowledge in BB that he also took insane doses later on in his career. Obviously it's BB so who knows because you can't really trust anyone which is a shame. I am not one of these guys that don't think great things are possible without drugs. The human spectrum is vast from intelligence to athleticism so obviously muscle building as well. Some guys will believe anything they hear though and there are still loads who think Mike O'Hearn is natural.

 

[juggy38]

And @Shelby….I’m tickled shitless that Dante, you and dusty are in the conversation of same a thread. I’m dating myself.

 

[Elvia1023]

Steve Kuclo trained DC style for quite a few years also if that makes any difference tho.

Why would that make any difference. Obviously a great training system but it's training. If you train really hard and lift heavy weight consistently for years it's going to make a massive difference but it's either possible or impossible. It's like when Mike O'Hearn says I have lifted hard and heavy and my diet has been perfect for 3 decades and that's why I look the way I do. Obviously all that hard work makes him look that good but without drugs it wouldn't be possible. Training is everything and makes a huge impact but just because you train like a beast it doesn't make the impossible possible. Get the strongest pro at the O and get him to do the next prep on no drugs and he will come last at the show. There are loads of real natural bodybuilders who are lifting huge weights and they look like natural bodybuilders for a reason.

 

[TheOtherOne55]

Steve Kuclo trained DC style for quite a few years also if that makes any difference tho.

Justin and Steve never trained in the DC training we know (3 way split). By DC, they just mean Dante wrote their training. And that’s straight from Justin’s mouth. Steve has always been more of a volume guy.

 

[FK86]

I have seen Ronnie say he was drug free at his peak when he was winning the O every year when asked on camera. That doesn't mean I don't think people can't look incredible on no drugs I just don't believe Ronnie's story.

Ronnie isn’t able to connect the dots on a lot of things. He says everything he used was prescribed by a doctor. Chad Nicholls nickname is The Diet Doc. I truly believe Ronnie is so dense he thinks what Chad gave him was legal and therefore "ok" and not the same as what everyone else was doing. It’s the same with his diet. Ronnie says he never cheated on his diet. A more accurate statement is that he never ate outside of his meal plan, which consisted of cheat meals and junk food whenever Chad wanted him to eat it.

 

[Fleezy]

Ronnie is so dense

'moral of the story is..... ...... ..why complain?'

 

[claymore]

I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again…believing what any pro bodybuilder tells you “his cycle” is or was is like believing the money you put in the collection plate at church every Sunday is going to GOD

 

[DOLFAN]

Plenty of reasons why…some guys are scared of needles, worried about the health effects and legal ramifications or they just might not feel they need it.

If you’re walking around at single digit body fat eating whatever you want as a natural like Ronnie was (even just based off his high school/college pics), the precontest phase is easy as long as he stuck to diet. The progress he made just off a structured bb diet and training program was probably massive. Needing steroids probably didn’t even cross his mind. He won the overall at the Mr. Texas his first show and then was 3rd at Nationals his second show. Why add help when things are that easy?

The Mr. Texas was not his first show and the Nationals was not his second show.

 

[KillerStack]

I am biased. Full tilt. But I’ve been following dusty since posts on Intense muscle. (I’m old). In all that time, I never saw him post anything related to “pushing” the dose, or…”trying high dose tren!” In his posts or logs.

I may be butchering the story but I recall, I think Dante, saying Dusty was doing some heavy drugs very early on because he was listening to bad advices but reeled it in. Then he put on a crapload of muscle with sensible doses

 

[165StateChamp]

The Mr. Texas was not his first show and the Nationals was not his second show.

Damn, MuscleMemory site is usually on point. @Shelby I’m disappointed in that site owner now lol.

*He won the Mr. Texas and placed third at Nationals in his first year competing.

 

[specter]

Genetics and drug response, there is an old trial out there, they gave 14 young healthy men 500mg test e and drew blood 14 days after the shot, lowest blood concentration 1500 highest blood koncentration 3000, thats double up, if thats not a big factor i dont know what is.

 

[VaginaBoob89]

I think the gist is….you don’t need 2.5g to compete in men’s physique.

Well... what I'd take away from this thread is rather different. "some people" will need 2.5g to turn pro in men's physique, some people will need a 500mg test starter cycle and nothing else. Some people, even in the modern era of men's physique, will be able to do it naturally. There was that Chinese American guy on the Mr. O Physique stage who was allegedly natural and i kinda believe him. I think Dusty in particular is full of shit (especially WRT to the SEO and site injections) but that doesn't mean there aren't freaks out there.

I mean some people can do amazingly complex partial differential equations when they are 17 in public high school and finish their PHDs in mathetmatics at age 25; others still can't grasp the basics of algebra. You can attribute it to differences in motivation and work ethic, but even those have strong genetic components. Some people graduate high school obese at 350lbs 5'10, some people graduate at 125lbs. Genetic variability is pretty big with a lot of human characteristics.

But as Luki would be quick to point out, a lot of pros are 'moralfagging' about doses trying to convince you they are the genetically elite and trying to dissuade anyone from pushing the doses to live the kind of life they want to live. This is paternalistic and in bad faith. Sure, go ahead and tell people you use low doses or even lie say that you use lower doses than you really use, but it's very condescending and stupid to yell at anyone who wants to push things harder to get where they want to be. There's so many pros who make this equivalency of "high doses=bad and evil person" which is just silly and retarded. Just like there's huge variability in other human characteristics, response and side effects from different drugs also vary greatly. You all have heard stories of people who smoke 2 packs of cigarettes per day and get drunk regularly but still live to 90. Steroids are overall a lot less dangerous than alcohol or cigarettes, and some people can probably push 400mg tren year round and mostly feel fine and not really damage their health that much. I really doubt many of the people on really high doses are also walking around feeling like walking death all the time; probably precisely because they didn't have as many side effects as other people did caused them to go to higher doses in the first place.

 

[Shelby]

Damn, MuscleMemory site is usually on point. @Shelby I’m disappointed in that site owner now lol.

*He won the Mr. Texas and placed third at Nationals in his first year competing.

A lot of shows aren't on his radar, especially earlier / smaller shows

 

[MR. BMJ]

Dusty addressing this (down below). Also.....BIG RON stated he may drop in to the message board forums. Maybe he'll stop in here? Lets go @ron Partlow or @Rep300 !!!

Dusty also gave props to the site saying how much he loved posting here back in the day.

Recent episode of It's Just Bodybuilding episode 232 today (go give them some love with hitting the like button guys!):

0:00 teaser clip
0:20 Intro
3:10 Can Enhanced Bodybuilding Be Done Safely?
16:00 Dusty Lied??
30:10 One exercise for each body part
40:45 how would exercises change when aiming for pro card
42:40 How Much Protein?
51:30 Bob Waterhouse
52:45 Overrated/Underrated...
53:45 Cold Plunge
54:35 Nebula Gym Machines
59:00 Mark Bell Slingshot

 

[b-boy]

Dusty addressing this (down below). Also.....BIG RON stated he may drop in to the message board forums. Maybe he'll stop in here? Lets go @ron Partlow or @Rep300 !!!

Dusty also gave props to the site saying how much he loved posting here back in the day.

Recent episode of It's Just Bodybuilding episode 232 today (go give them some love with hitting the like button guys!):

0:00 teaser clip
0:20 Intro
3:10 Can Enhanced Bodybuilding Be Done Safely?
16:00 Dusty Lied??
30:10 One exercise for each body part
40:45 how would exercises change when aiming for pro card
42:40 How Much Protein?
51:30 Bob Waterhouse
52:45 Overrated/Underrated...
53:45 Cold Plunge
54:35 Nebula Gym Machines
59:00 Mark Bell Slingshot

Good listen

I didn't listen to the first podcast that this thread is about....why? Because I don't give two fucks what Dusty Hanshaw takes, I don't give two fucks what Carlos Thomas Jr. takes... It doesn't concern me, I know what I take and what I can handle, I found out through trial and error, I cruise on MY cruise dose and I blast on MY blast dose. When I was younger and didn't know Jack shit about Bodybuilding then yes I was fascinated with what the big boyz take, now I know it doesn't matter, I know what Brad is able to take and that all I need to know.

 

[Bebbo99]

I think the miss understanding is that dusty ran longer preps and would go 2g+ for the preps and his bulks were so shot he essentially just ran them as a cruise then blasted his preps which is opposite to what most pros do/talk about.

So when he mentions his off season dosing it's true because he grew more in preps than off seasons.