DNS 193 podcast: Actual Pro Cycles & How They Retain Muscle

[165StateChamp]

I think a lot of guys are honest as amateurs then once they get their pro cards or place well in pro shows they start minimizing…I even have friends who are pros now who I have shared hotel rooms with/stayed at their houses who are telling me their doses dropped after adding 20 lbs of muscle in an offseason and their waist expanded. And they were not running crazy doses previously

And for whatever reason the site enhancement topic is very sensitive…if a guy uses mediphorm lightly he might say he uses none. If he uses a ton of it, it’s just one cc in weak parts.

End of the day, I don’t really care what anyone is doing because it doesn’t affect my use. I have personal limits that I consider ‘safe’ and I don’t plan to exceed them. It does kinda chap my ass a little bit though when friends don’t want to keep it 100 on something so minor but hey, it’s a strange industry.

On the Dusty topic, I have on good record from a former training partner of Dusty that he used SEO for a month and thought he added size from it. And he used to site inject his arms heavily until 2021. In this thread his response implies (to me at least) that he didn’t use any SEO and minimally site injected gear. Anyone with any experience can look at Dusty’s arms and see they have been injected heavily just based on the inflammation.

https://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/index.php?threads/dusty-hanshaws-arms.166350/post-2899141

Moral of the story with this long ass post - there is a public story, a story you get when you’re close and then the story you get when you are close and guys think they have something to lose. None of it really matters at the end of the day. My personal stance - I don’t discuss specifics publicly but I’m completely honest with my friends.

 

[pistonpump]

You aren't maintain a huge bb physique on less then a gram of hormone a week that's for sure. If the juice got u to a size way over your generic potential then it's going to need to be maintained with hormones why would 1g help a guy stay over say 270? No way I'm not buying it maybe if he just gets fat and stays that weight but to keep the muscle a certain amount of hormone is needed imo

 

[MR. BMJ]

You aren't maintain a huge bb physique on less then a gram of hormone a week that's for sure. If the juice got u to a size way over your generic potential then it's going to need to be maintained with hormones why would 1g help a guy stay over say 270? No way I'm not buying it maybe if he just gets fat and stays that weight but to keep the muscle a certain amount of hormone is needed imo

That's what he has stated in the past. He losses 'some' size, gains 'some' fat and softens up, but his weight overall, for the most part, stays the same. He states his strength stays fairly the same as well. The goal is to be bigger than you were the year prior at the same time, not what you were when gassed up with higher doses. That way every year you show improvements. Nobody is going to look the same as they were when using higher amounts, but dropping back down to 2-400'ish test per week can still slow down the downward progression until health/labs are back in line for another push.

 

[luki7788]

the truth is that no one (no one who makes big progress from year to year) who is at the beginning of his bodybuilding career comes down from the blast for a few years - then when he has gained all the necessary muscle mass he can allow himself to go on longer cruises and lose size in offseason to blow up again during prep

I was confirmed in this belief by meeting Dr. Ashim - in the Middle East, doctors really have great knowledge and opportunities to keep bodybuilders healthy for many years. In Europe or the USA there are also great doctors but there no one is interested in bodybuilders and there is no knowledge of athletes on PEDs whose bodies work completely differently than normal people
For them, getting someone back to health after 16 weeks of contest preparation is a matter of 2-3 weeks and you're ready for another blast

how do you think winklar or brandon have been on stage for so many years? how come Suchorucko doesn't take any breaks, it just grows all the time between successive competitions...? it's not a miracle, it's medicine

 

[KingOfSushi]

the truth is that no one (no one who makes big progress from year to year) who is at the beginning of his bodybuilding career comes down from the blast for a few years - then when he has gained all the necessary muscle mass he can allow himself to go on longer cruises and lose size in offseason to blow up again during prep

I was confirmed in this belief by meeting Dr. Ashim - in the Middle East, doctors really have great knowledge and opportunities to keep bodybuilders healthy for many years. In Europe or the USA there are also great doctors but there no one is interested in bodybuilders and there is no knowledge of athletes on PEDs whose bodies work completely differently than normal people
For them, getting someone back to health after 16 weeks of contest preparation is a matter of 2-3 weeks and you're ready for another blast

how do you think winklar or brandon have been on stage for so many years? how come Suchorucko doesn't take any breaks, it just grows all the time between successive competitions...? it's not a miracle, it's medicine

This is the same doctor that quickly restored your liver health, correct?

 

[MR. BMJ]

Maybe not everybody follows Dusty like I do, but here is something to keep in mind. He diets for 20-24 weeks for a contest, that's 5-6 months out of the year. At some point quickly after, he drops down to trt to clear his system (he noted it in the video I posted in the OP). I believe he does at least 2 months like this based off his labs. If he diets for 6 months out of the year for a contest, then takes 2 months to dial health back in (give or take), this only left him with maybe 4 months, maybe more depending on the exact date of the contest the following year, to grow. He's stated on other podcasts that he may only have time to push the gas for maybe 1 extra cycle in the off-season before he needs to get ready for his prep another 20-24 weeks out from the next show. Maybe 2 'cycles' for the longer breaks of 1.5 years between contests. Just something to think about.

-2008 - Border States (1st). Then he took one of his longest breaks from competing until 2010.

-2010- He did the Jr. Nationals and won, then later in July, he did the USA's and got 5th.

-Nov 2011 - NPC Nationals.

-1 year later, 2012 NPC Nationals again in November

-Took 1.5 years off and did both the USA (end of July) and North Americans (end of August). Won his pro card at NA's.

-Took year off and did Pheonix pro Oct 2015.

-Took about 18 months off and did both Vancouver pro (7/9/2017) and Chicago pro (7/14/17).

-Took 10 months off and did the California Pro show, then the Vancouver in July.

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

Not even to me...reporting in to coach early in year.....

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

Later in year reporting in getting ready ..... (it is what it is)....

 

[luki7788]

This is the same doctor that quickly restored your liver health, correct?

Yes

 

[Swifto]

Not even to me...reporting in to coach early in year.....

View attachment 179621

Good to see you stopping by.

 

[Swifto]

We know that there is a broad spectrum of response to training, eating, dieting, sleep, recovery, taking PEDs, but still people dont want to believe lower PED doses work for some.

Why?

Because it makes their own drug "use" (abuse) look bad.

There is no way he got to that size on 1-1.5g as I have to take 5g mentality. It makes them look like they dont have their training and nutrition program down to a T, but that cant be so as thats their fault, so it must be the drugs. It has to be. It cant be genetic response.

 

[Fleezy]

We know that there is a broad spectrum of response to training, eating, dieting, sleep, recovery, taking PEDs, but still people dont want to believe lower PED doses work for some.

Why?

Because it makes their own drug "use" (abuse) look bad.

There is no way he got to that size on 1-1.5g as I have to take 5g mentality. It makes them look like they dont have their training and nutrition program down to a T, but that cant be so as thats their fault, so it must be the drugs. It has to be. It cant be genetic response.

It’s not so much that.. at all

It’s when you see someone who clearly takes bodybuilding very seriously, but doesn’t place well in shows

They aren’t going to use drugs that will very likely improve their ability to do well? They are going to keep themselves from going beyond some arbitrary amount?

It’s this sort of mentality that causes people to believe nonsense stuff - like Ronnie turning pro naturally.

 

[165StateChamp]

It’s not so much that.. at all

It’s when you see someone who clearly takes bodybuilding very seriously, but doesn’t place well in shows

They aren’t going to use drugs that will very likely improve their ability to do well? They are going to keep themselves from going beyond some arbitrary amount?

It’s this sort of mentality that causes people to believe nonsense stuff - like Ronnie turning pro naturally.

Ronnie turned pro his second year competing, did it as a hobby, and turned pro at a supposed drug tested show. He then gained 80 lbs over his pro career. Him turning pro natural really seems that nonsensical to you?

 

[Fleezy]

Ronnie turned pro his second year competing, did it as a hobby, and turned pro at a supposed drug tested show. He then gained 80 lbs over his pro career. Him turning pro natural really seems that nonsensical to you?

Well, you know very well how hard the precontest phase is.. dieting on low calories, cardio, all while trying to hold onto that lean tissue that was so difficult to build up

Would be much more difficult as a natural, of course…

throwing something as minuscule as half a gram of test a week into the equation would make a massive difference in achieving these ends

If anyone could turn pro naturally, it would be Ronnie.. but the question is ‘why?’ - when it would be so much easier with just a little gear

it just doesn’t add up.. and the guy is on record saying some silly things - like having negative body fat %

 

[165StateChamp]

Well, you know very well how hard the precontest phase is.. dieting on low calories, cardio, all while trying to hold onto that lean tissue that was so difficult to build up

Would be much more difficult as a natural, of course…

throwing something as minuscule as half a gram of test a week into the equation would make a massive difference in achieving these ends

If anyone could turn pro naturally, it would be Ronnie.. but the question is ‘why?’ - when it would be so much easier with just a little gear

it just doesn’t add up.. and the guy is on record saying some silly things - like having negative body fat %

Plenty of reasons why…some guys are scared of needles, worried about the health effects and legal ramifications or they just might not feel they need it.

If you’re walking around at single digit body fat eating whatever you want as a natural like Ronnie was (even just based off his high school/college pics), the precontest phase is easy as long as he stuck to diet. The progress he made just off a structured bb diet and training program was probably massive. Needing steroids probably didn’t even cross his mind. He won the overall at the Mr. Texas his first show and then was 3rd at Nationals his second show. Why add help when things are that easy?

 

[Fleezy]

Plenty of reasons why…some guys are scared of needles, worried about the health effects and legal ramifications or they just might not feel they need it.

If you’re walking around at single digit body fat eating whatever you want as a natural like Ronnie was (even just based off his high school/college pics), the precontest phase is easy as long as he stuck to diet. The progress he made just off a structured bb diet and training program was probably massive. Needing steroids probably didn’t even cross his mind. He won the overall at the Mr. Texas his first show and then was 3rd at Nationals his second show. Why add help when things are that easy?

Because the productive life/earning years of a bodybuilder are so short, no time to waste on uncertainty

I’m of course not saying that I know that he didn’t turn pro naturally as a matter of fact

I’m just saying that I don’t believe it

In the same way that I don’t believe some bodybuilders who claim to sip on the gear while sitting in the 3rd call-out while knowing full well that their competition is loaded to the gills

 

[165StateChamp]

Because the productive life/earning years of a bodybuilder are so short, no time to waste on uncertainty

I’m of course not saying that I know that he didn’t turn pro naturally as a matter of fact

I’m just saying that I don’t believe it

In the same way that I don’t believe some bodybuilders who claim to sip on the gear while sitting in the 3rd call-out while knowing full well that their competition is loaded to the gills

Yeah, you’re ignoring the story he’s told his whole career though.

It was a hobby. He started doing it for a free gym membership. And he had a job as a cop even for the first few years as a Mr. Olympia. He didn’t need to make his living off bodybuilding like most of the rest.

 

[Fleezy]

Yeah, you’re ignoring the story he’s told his whole career though.

It was a hobby. He started doing it for a free gym membership. And he had a job as a cop even for the first few years as a Mr. Olympia. He didn’t need to make his living off bodybuilding like most of the rest.

Right

I’m not saying that he’s absolutely telling falsehoods

I’m just saying that I don’t believe it, because there’s no logical reasons for it, and lots of reasons against it

My opinion is inconsequential

 

[Shelby]

To be as good and big as Ronnie was in his prime, it's very believable that he was natural in his early career.
Nowadays everybody and their brother hops on gear the first time they think about even going to watch a men's physique show
but back when Ronnie started it was quite a bit different, and like 165State said, he had to be persuaded to even begin bodybuilding.
If you haven't been around the block for long it would be hard to believe it, I can definitely understand that. Very Dunning-Krueger.

 

[KillerStack]

Emeric Delczeg is a guy who is bad at explaining things clearly and plainly but he said something about Ronnie just using a little test as an amateur before he really hit the gas. At least that's how I read it, but like I said, he is notoriously poor at communication so he may have meant something else entirely lol. But let's say that's the story, most would say he was natural even despite some minor juicing. But it's not minor to me lol, those first few milligrams would be what had the most impact overall. Just my opinion. Does it matter, is it worth thinking about and discussing? Well apparently it is to me because I've discussed it for decades lol, I would actually pay to know the exact details just for my own curiosity being an obsessive bodybuilding "fan." Most definitely I would say this curiosity has absolutely nothing to do with trying to explain my own bodybuiöding failures, to have some type of "excuse." Nothing at all, I'm a guy who believes in the primacy of genetics more than the absolute majority.

I mentioned an "effective" range of PED use. Even many here who call out the "lies" believe there's a vast difference in response to PEDs where some guys get away with way less than others. My perspective isn't quite that. I think we can actually generalise quite a bit. We can see average PED use ranges within bodybuilding. We can see average PED use ranges and use of classes of drugs (meaning not just steroids but classes like growth hormone and insulin) and their effect on average weight of the competitors over time. That's why we can call BS with pretty high certainty on certain cited dosages. Like it's highly unlikely someone is below a certain milligram level or that someone on a certain development level has omitted a class of drugs alltogether (like insulin). We can say competitor X didn't use just 2 ccs of test at his peak for example. Despite genetic differences there are still more similarities. I'd think most would agree with this but apparently they don't. Like Milos can say to someone, like mentioned in this thread, if you want to do well on a national level you will have to play with certain substances as a rule, but then he will also say some pros have done well as naturals (he's given a few examples apart from Ronnie). In these cases I don't know what's going on, if these guys really believe it or what. Regarding PED responses Milos used to say insulin would give about 30lbs of stage weight on average and how the sudden increase in weight of the average competitor was all due to this one drug.

Variability yes, but if you look at the PDR it won't say for headache some may need 10mg of aspirin whereas others need a gram. There's an effective range that applies to humans in general.

The other day I was on IG and there was some clip where an advanced bb said he used just 400mg of test. Steve Kucklo said the guy was full of shit. Steve is a guy who was said to have alien genetics and there were arguments here on promuscle back in the day about whether he was natural or close to it as a teen and a couple of prominent guys we all know said he was clean. And Steve most likely does have abnormal genetics. But even he called bullshit on this other guy who I assume he doesn't even know.