Do you think HGH changes your physique forever?

[pistonpump]

To be fair.. creatine was the gateway drug to my gear use.
When those initial creatine gains and pumps stopped, I needed that regain that feeling again.

Lol wtf blame the creatine

 

[goback2013]

Lol wtf blame the creatine

Yep!
And like the great Layne Staley once said..

What's my drug of choice ?
Well what have you got ?

 

[FrancisK]

It's totally anecdotal and subjective but I can confidently say through my logs and discernible results that my body became significantly wider when I started using GH a few years after I started using AAS. I laugh seeing old pictures of myself even while on gear and my old shirts cut off the circulation in my arms and won't even go over my shoulders let along button over my chest.

Nothing changed other than GH use, again I know it doesn't mean much but that's my expierence and it doesn't go away when I come off GH which I do for long periods.

 

[FrancisK]

delete

 

[OuchThatHurts]

The only things I've heard of is some minor lengthening of the hands and feet, acromegaly in the face and head, intestinal growth from the IGF increase and a few people reported a 1/2 to 1" gain in height. All anecdotal. The "set points" I absolutely have experienced myself. I would not be my size had I never taken anything. And I haven't been taking GH long enough to notice any of the above effects I just mentioned. But it sure makes a nice difference while on it. Permanent or not, I don't care. I guess this post answers nothing. Oh well.

 

[pickapeck]

I read your full post and whilst many parts are similar I don't agree that your physique is changed forever but sure it's not black/white. Obviously if you start at 160 and build up to 260 and hold that for years when you come off and eat very little you are not going back to 160 so yes you have definitely changed. So you can create new set points for your body over a very long time period. I still don't equate that to HGH will change you forever. Drugs will help facilitate that weight gain so yes they will contribute to changing your physique but this post is specifically about HGH. Now sure if someone used HGH to grow 50 pounds over years then sure.

As you stated it's not black and white because many factors come into play with time being a big one. So we are definitely agreeing but I think the drug amounts and the time spent on those drugs as well as your calorie intake are important factors. Every situation is different so it's not a yes/no answer but there are loads of people who use AAS/HGH and put on 50 pounds over years then come off everything and stop training and they go back to their original starting point. Some of the biggest freaks of all time are normal looking men with next to no muscle. The likes of Kevin Levrone would shrink in a matter of months not training and off drugs every offseason and blow back up in a matter of weeks back on everything. My best mate still goes to the gym but hasn't taken gear for about 5 years (after about 5 years of taking large doses most of the year) and he looks exactly the same as he did before he ever touched any drugs.

Do you think that the first cycle gains hold for life? I've seen that work. Not many stop long enough at 1 to know but since I was born a minute after Moses I have seen it. You can argue that it is just gains that would have been without AAS but only sped up. 25 lbs gain first cycle, followed by loss of 8 lbs steroid pump, a lull period and 6 months later holding 12-15 lbs of new tissue, this after training natty for 10 years. Caveat, nobody stops at 1.

 

[pickapeck]

I didn't use GH until my 50s so not a lot happened. My head might have grown a little since my teeth don't have tight contacts anymore. Same shoe size etc. Never went over 4 iu/d. Mostly HRT levels.

 

[slesh]

I think we’ve gone off on such an apples to oranges tangent. When I reacted to the original posts I was not talking about limbs growing - of course if your bone structure in your head grows it’s not going to recent after you stop injecting GH lol. And any true muscle growth you get with added gear is not going away assuming you maintain diet and training.

I was referring to the direct GH sides like liposys, muscle volume, hair, skin tightening and nails. That type of stuff 100% stops when you stop injecting.

So apologies to the OP if that’s not what he was asking.

 

[Elvia1023]

Do you think that the first cycle gains hold for life? I've seen that work. Not many stop long enough at 1 to know but since I was born a minute after Moses I have seen it. You can argue that it is just gains that would have been without AAS but only sped up. 25 lbs gain first cycle, followed by loss of 8 lbs steroid pump, a lull period and 6 months later holding 12-15 lbs of new tissue, this after training natty for 10 years. Caveat, nobody stops at 1.

There are so many variables to this and the answer changes because of them. If someone trains naturally and then does a 1st cycle and never cycles again that yes they could remain bigger than if they had never used AAS. Now obviously if they stop training etc they will go back to how they looked before they ever lifted. Again so many variables because even that isn't true if they held a bigger bodyweight for years because that alone can change someone "permanently". This is why in my previous posts I took it back to the question that was asked in the 1st post of the thread because everyone is answering a different question.

So yes in some very select circumstances the drugs could result in some permanent changes but for 99% of cases they won't. I actually know someone who is a good example of this subject which is rare to find. A guy who was always skinny and he didn't even go a gym and he trained at home and he wasn't consistent. He would party and not eat much and was very skinny. He took anadrol for a few months and literally blew up. The changes were ridiculous because he was always super skinny (even ill looking) and wasn't known as a gym person (because he didn't train properly) and within a few months he looked like your typical "stedhead" in this city and people probably looked at him and thought he hammered the gym.

He got some insane 1st cycle results even without doing things "correctly" because of his ridiculous starting point. As he wasn't into the gym he went back to his old ways and that meant no gym and no aas and 1 year later he looked like he looked before he ever took adrol. Obviously if this guy continued to train and get into the lifestyle like 99% of people do then he would have kept some of that size even without going on cycle again. But in regards to a discussion do drugs create permanent changes no they don't but if you move the goalposts and start eating better and continue training or even taking lower doses then of course people will permanently change themselves.

All this seems so obvious to me but sure it depends what question you ask (what exactly does the person do after they stops the drugs). Some guys are posting like if you use drugs and stop everything you will stay the same forever which is ridiculous. If x person is natural and they use drugs and after they come off they are 10 pounds heavier if they go back to what they done before those 10 pounds will eventually fade away. There are 10001 variables but it's really that simple. We are a product of what we do. I have been over 240 pounds for over a decade so sure I could take 100mg test and eat 2000 calories per day and it's not like I am going back to 170 pounds.

If I really starved myself and stopped taking drugs I would soon be 170 pounds. I know your point has nothing to do with that and you are essentially stating if x person does the same thing before/after his cycle just taking the drugs in the 1st place will permanently change him and for me whilst there are permanent changes in regards to look no I think eventually he will return to how he looked before. The variables that would effect everything are his starting point, end point, drugs taken, length of drug cycle etc.

 

[pickapeck]

There are so many variables to this and the answer changes because of them. If someone trains naturally and then does a 1st cycle and never cycles again that yes they could remain bigger than if they had never used AAS. Now obviously if they stop training etc they will go back to how they looked before they ever lifted. Again so many variables because even that isn't true if they held a bigger bodyweight for years because that alone can change someone "permanently". This is why in my previous posts I took it back to the question that was asked in the 1st post of the thread because everyone is answering a different question.

So yes in some very select circumstances the drugs could result in some permanent changes but for 99% of cases they won't. I actually know someone who is a good example of this subject which is rare to find. A guy who was always skinny and he didn't even go a gym and he trained at home and he wasn't consistent. He would party and not eat much and was very skinny. He took anadrol for a few months and literally blew up. The changes were ridiculous because he was always super skinny (even ill looking) and wasn't known as a gym person (because he didn't train properly) and within a few months he looked like your typical "stedhead" in this city and people probably looked at him and thought he hammered the gym.

He got some insane 1st cycle results even without doing things "correctly" because of his ridiculous starting point. As he wasn't into the gym he went back to his old ways and that meant no gym and no aas and 1 year later he looked like he looked before he ever took adrol. Obviously if this guy continued to train and get into the lifestyle like 99% of people do then he would have kept some of that size even without going on cycle again. But in regards to a discussion do drugs create permanent changes no they don't but if you move the goalposts and start eating better and continue training or even taking lower doses then of course people will permanently change themselves.

All this seems so obvious to me but sure it depends what question you ask (what exactly does the person do after they stops the drugs). Some guys are posting like if you use drugs and stop everything you will stay the same forever which is ridiculous. If x person is natural and they use drugs and after they come off they are 10 pounds heavier if they go back to what they done before those 10 pounds will eventually fade away. There are 10001 variables but it's really that simple. We are a product of what we do. I have been over 240 pounds for over a decade so sure I could take 100mg test and eat 2000 calories per day and it's not like I am going back to 170 pounds.

If I really starved myself and stopped taking drugs I would soon be 170 pounds. I know your point has nothing to do with that and you are essentially stating if x person does the same thing before/after his cycle just taking the drugs in the 1st place will permanently change him and for me whilst there are permanent changes in regards to look no I think eventually he will return to how he looked before. The variables that would effect everything are his starting point, end point, drugs taken, length of drug cycle etc.

I disagree. Doesn't match what I've seen or experienced. It's typical for someone that trained natty for a long time to do one cycle and hold 1/2of it. I saw it over and over. Also, many I knew, 10 years later after juicing and then going off, the guys that I knew all my life, they would shrink down but always hold added muscle as long as they worked out. Your logic traps people into perpetual cycle to the end. But hey you do you buddy.

 

[Elvia1023]

I disagree. Doesn't match what I've seen or experienced. It's typical for someone that trained natty for a long time to do one cycle and hold 1/2of it. I saw it over and over. Also, many I knew, 10 years later after juicing and then going off, the guys that I knew all my life, they would shrink down but always hold added muscle as long as they worked out. Your logic traps people into perpetual cycle to the end. But hey you do you buddy.

Well my views on this subject are varied and if you disagree that's fine but I am curious about something. Maybe you are exaggerating a truth. How many people do you know who done 1 cycle and never done anything ever again? I know loads of people who take gear and have supplied many and that is extremely rare but you know loads of them? You have saw it over and over? The guy I mentioned is the only person I know who took 1 cycle and never done anything ever again and that is out of 100's in real life. I know a few girls who took some avar and never done anything ever again but men they usually do something else. They may have done one injectable cycle but most added in dbol or avar later down the road. I know a few people who barely use gear but they always want some avar for summer time or maybe some clen when dieting for their holiday.

My logic traps people into a perpetual cycle to the end? No my logic is just real life. It's fact. My logic is the reason all of us on here (minus a few) are still taking gear and we aren't natural because if we were we wouldn't look the same. If I could have took some test and avar for 12 weeks 10 years ago and stayed the same forever I wouldn't be on test and deca now. Again there are million variables and I am not stating you can't maintain on a fraction of the dose and you can't come off for periods in the year and maintain fairly well. But you 100% can't take drugs for a few months and the results just stick with you forever.

Maybe our goals are different but I want to look like I use gear. I like people seeing me and going wtf like what happened today. If I came off test and deca and done no drugs for a few years I would never get that reaction because you can't maintain your look on no drugs. Can you maintain it for a long period... yes but you have to keep using things to keep the look.

 

[stackdizzy]

While I started juice young and have known a lot of people that have just done one cycle and retain nothing I think this thread is specifically about gh. To which I don't know anyone that's just done it once. I am also in the camp that if HIV patients are using 12ius plus ed to prevent wasting that the dose for gh needs to probably at least that to grow muscle. Of course peeps are taking other drugs and what not but I don't think a lot of people are qualified to answer this question as they haven't really taken an effective dose. Just my opinion most probably think it sucks but o well.

 

[pickapeck]

Well my views on this subject are varied and if you disagree that's fine but I am curious about something. Maybe you are exaggerating a truth. How many people do you know who done 1 cycle and never done anything ever again? I know loads of people who take gear and have supplied many and that is extremely rare but you know loads of them? You have saw it over and over? The guy I mentioned is the only person I know who took 1 cycle and never done anything ever again and that is out of 100's in real life. I know a few girls who took some avar and never done anything ever again but men they usually do something else. They may have done one injectable cycle but most added in dbol or avar later down the road. I know a few people who barely use gear but they always want some avar for summer time or maybe some clen when dieting for their holiday.

My logic traps people into a perpetual cycle to the end? No my logic is just real life. It's fact. My logic is the reason all of us on here (minus a few) are still taking gear and we aren't natural because if we were we wouldn't look the same. If I could have took some test and avar for 12 weeks 10 years ago and stayed the same forever I wouldn't be on test and deca now. Again there are million variables and I am not stating you can't maintain on a fraction of the dose and you can't come off for periods in the year and maintain fairly well. But you 100% can't take drugs for a few months and the results just stick with you forever.

Maybe our goals are different but I want to look like I use gear. I like people seeing me and going wtf like what happened today. If I came off test and deca and done no drugs for a few years I would never get that reaction because you can't maintain your look on no drugs. Can you maintain it for a long period... yes but you have to keep using things to keep the look.

Elvia I remember you from 10 years ago on a few smaller boards. You were always a deep thinker. Reading your last few posts I think you are getting lost in the many variables arguement you put up fairly frequently. You should be able to discriminate and use your powers of observation to deduce trends. Part of our disagreement is that we are different generations. When I started in this there were no boards and AAS was hard to come by. People actually went on and off on a regular basis. That is a very different set of observations than what we have today, which I have also observed. I think the crux of your bias is plain in your last paragraph. You are fearful of shrinking down. Carrying a measly 20 lbs added residual mass is not something you want to perceive if you can hold 45 lbs of PED inflated mass. I've just about aged out of this. I've already downsized 30 lbs. At some point we all will downsize. In 20 years you will be in my place with 20 more years of observation and I will be gone. Good luck weaving your way through variables, observation, deduction, discussion and conclusion.

 

[Elvia1023]

Elvia I remember you from 10 years ago on a few smaller boards. You were always a deep thinker. Reading your last few posts I think you are getting lost in the many variables arguement you put up fairly frequently. You should be able to discriminate and use your powers of observation to deduce trends. Part of our disagreement is that we are different generations. When I started in this there were no boards and AAS was hard to come by. People actually went on and off on a regular basis. That is a very different set of observations than what we have today, which I have also observed. I think the crux of your bias is plain in your last paragraph. You are fearful of shrinking down. Carrying a measly 20 lbs added residual mass is not something you want to perceive if you can hold 45 lbs of PED inflated mass. I've just about aged out of this. I've already downsized 30 lbs. At some point we all will downsize. In 20 years you will be in my place with 20 more years of observation and I will be gone. Good luck weaving your way through variables, observation, deduction, discussion and conclusion.

Not at all. You may think that because you are older but my observations are from 100's of people and not myself. The fact I still want to be big has no relevance on the subject in this thread. I have downsized in the last few years a few times and I have come off all drugs many times in the last 10 years. I have gone down approx 25 pounds and completely lost my look (off all drugs but still training hard) a few times but again that has no relevance on things.

I also know how easy it is to maintain weight and a certain look on a fraction of blast doses (200mg test for example). So many guys are scared to come off and even do TRT because they think they will melt away. That doesn't change the fact if you come off all drugs you will shrink and if you read my posts earlier in this thread I have covered the impact weighing much more than your "natural" weight has on you especially if held for years. I don't think we disagree on 95% of these subjects. The subject of using drugs for a short time and somehow it changing your look forever we definitely disagree on though.

I should add I also believe any natural who touches drugs even for just a few months changes themselves permanently. They will always have an advantage over a life time natural so it partially sides with your views. I am just talking on a solely visual difference and I strongly believe and have seen before if a person briefly uses drugs (1 cycle for example) and comes off forever they don't change their look permanently. Now a steroid/aas user for many years when they come off (and stays off) they have 100% changed their look permanently. As it's been posted earlier they tend to have a weird look like the muscle has shrank but it's dormant in a sense and this is why muscle memory is a very real thing.

With HGH in the mix for long periods people often have thicker features and wider necks, fingers, noses etc. So permanent changes are very real it's just a matter of how long people were on stuff and how much they changed in the process. As Slesh posted though to believe people are getting HGH's effects (skin, hair, body composition etc) long after stopping it is ridiculous. If you take a genetic elite who uses lot's of drugs and looks fantastic and get him to stop everything he will look like a regular person within a relatively short time (Kevin Levrone for example) so whilst permanent changes occur internally no one is keeping permanent muscle (and that on look) because they used a cycle once.

Anyway all is good and it's pointless debating because I think most people sort of agree it's just we are arguing about different things. I wish AAS created permanent changes because I actually hate injecting the older I get I am turning 40 this year so trust me I am downsizing as well but I am going out with one last bang before I do

 

[pickapeck]

Not at all. You may think that because you are older but my observations are from 100's of people and not myself. The fact I still want to be big has no relevance on the subject in this thread. I have downsized in the last few years a few times and I have come off all drugs many times in the last 10 years. I have gone down approx 25 pounds and completely lost my look (off all drugs but still training hard) a few times but again that has no relevance on things.

I also know how easy it is to maintain weight and a certain look on a fraction of blast doses (200mg test for example). So many guys are scared to come off and even do TRT because they think they will melt away. That doesn't change the fact if you come off all drugs you will shrink and if you read my posts earlier in this thread I have covered the impact weighing much more than your "natural" weight has on you especially if held for years. I don't think we disagree on 95% of these subjects. The subject of using drugs for a short time and somehow it changing your look forever we definitely disagree on though.

I should add I also believe any natural who touches drugs even for just a few months changes themselves permanently. They will always have an advantage over a life time natural so it partially sides with your views. I am just talking on a solely visual difference and I strongly believe and have seen before if a person briefly uses drugs (1 cycle for example) and comes off forever they don't change their look permanently. Now a steroid/aas user for many years when they come off (and stays off) they have 100% changed their look permanently. As it's been posted earlier they tend to have a weird look like the muscle has shrank but it's dormant in a sense and this is why muscle memory is a very real thing.

With HGH in the mix for long periods people often have thicker features and wider necks, fingers, noses etc. So permanent changes are very real it's just a matter of how long people were on stuff and how much they changed in the process. As Slesh posted though to believe people are getting HGH's effects (skin, hair, body composition etc) long after stopping it is ridiculous. If you take a genetic elite who uses lot's of drugs and looks fantastic and get him to stop everything he will look like a regular person within a relatively short time (Kevin Levrone for example) so whilst permanent changes occur internally no one is keeping permanent muscle (and that on look) because they used a cycle once.

Anyway all is good and it's pointless debating because I think most people sort of agree it's just we are arguing about different things. I wish AAS created permanent changes because I actually hate injecting the older I get I am turning 40 this year so trust me I am downsizing as well but I am going out with one last bang before I do

Kevin Levrone did a transformation 6-7 years ago natural and was 240 lbs 8% bf in 8 weeks. But most of you guys probably scream he cheated.

 

[Elvia1023]

Kevin Levrone did a transformation 6-7 years ago natural and was 240 lbs 8% bf in 8 weeks. But most of you guys probably scream he cheated.

I know for a fact he bullshits about his doses. He came off gear all the time but he used a lot when he was on it. All or nothing type of mentality. So yes I don't think he got to 240 at 8% bf when his stats aren't much different on loads of drugs.

 

[Elvia1023]

Can someone tell me the brand of HGH they used that changed their physique permanently? Seriously I will order some so I can just use it for 12 weeks and I will keep the gains forever. None of the brands I have used done that to me so they must just be bad. I have used genotropin, riptropin, meditrope (blacks, greys and mauves), genotrope, humatrope, kigtropin etc. Maybe it was Serostim? I haven't used those they must be the secret to permanent muscle gains.

 

[luki7788]

there is no such thing as permanent in bodybuilding - you give up something and the body always strives for balance, i.e. to the state it had when you started taking anything

permanent does not exist