When you think you're done, totally Done - You have at least 5 More.

[danieltx]

Training with Oscar Ardon, you would think your done, than be told 20 more lol

Those old Mike Pulcinella videos he did of Ardon training Kai Greene are legendary.

 

[Flocci]

“You have 5 more shitty reps with compromised technique”

I absolutely never try to “wreck” myself in the gym unnecessarily. Sets to failure? Sure. Progressive overload? Yes.

But, bodybuilding is building a mountain with layers of paint. It’s a slow process that accumulates over time.

People have idealistic and emotional ties to training like a madman, but it’s not going to be the reason you grow. It’s also virtue signaling to say how hard you train. Makes people angry when you question it.

Technique. Progression. Recovery. Adherence.

very well said

 

[buck]

I find most new to moderate lifters can easily have 5 more reps in them. More advanced then not so much. Unless there is someone else helping with the reps like in the video. and that has nothing to do with knocking Platz as he ranks in my top 3 bodybuilders of all times.

 

[Big Dave Smith]

I find most new to moderate lifters can easily have 5 more reps in them. More advanced then not so much. Unless there is someone else helping with the reps like in the video. and that has nothing to do with knocking Platz as he ranks in my top 3 bodybuilders of all times.

Pain tolerance might be a physiological adaptation over time.

In my 20’s, I could extend sets with emotion and anger. The pain was intense.

As I got older, I didn’t feel as much pain. The muscle would just die out. At 40, I don’t feel nearly as much pain. Nothing I can mentally do to keep a set going unless my form gets really sloppy.

 

[buck]

Pain tolerance might be a physiological adaptation over time.

In my 20’s, I could extend sets with emotion and anger. The pain was intense.

As I got older, I didn’t feel as much pain. The muscle would just die out. At 40, I don’t feel nearly as much pain. Nothing I can mentally do to keep a set going unless my form gets really sloppy.

I am 64. In general i find discomfort/pain is easier to deal with as one gets older as it just becomes the way things are. There is a chemical that the brain produces from my reading that is similar to morphine(guess that is why the body has receptors that work with morphine) which gets released so tasks can still be accomplished , for survival reason i expect. Which would help with heavy lifting. People that release more would likley feel less pain i would think.
I find we are all different as for pain. Would depend on how many receptors one has for that i would think too.
In general i did not feel any real pain when lifting i just failed at a certain point. Other then lactic acid build up.
I am no tough guy, dr.'s tell me i have a very high tolerance for pain but to be honest i really don't notice as much as it seems others do so getting through it is just not that big of a deal to me.
Learning to take things to the next level then the next level after that just takes time and experience/motivation i think.
Can't say for sure i ever hit the top level. But people quit asking to train or work in with me early on.

 

[Flocci]

Pain tolerance might be a physiological adaptation over time.

In my 20’s, I could extend sets with emotion and anger. The pain was intense.

As I got older, I didn’t feel as much pain. The muscle would just die out. At 40, I don’t feel nearly as much pain. Nothing I can mentally do to keep a set going unless my form gets really sloppy.

I wonder if thats a fair bit of physiological adaptions too, as we get more capillaries, more adaptions in general so the body probably removes waste products and lactic acid and stuff like that more efficiently causing less pain. Just broscience from my brain though. Theres definetly something to adapting and overcoming bigger and bigger pain thresholds too.

 

[3BILLS]

“You have 5 more shitty reps with compromised technique”

I absolutely never try to “wreck” myself in the gym unnecessarily. Sets to failure? Sure. Progressive overload? Yes.

But, bodybuilding is building a mountain with layers of paint. It’s a slow process that accumulates over time.

People have idealistic and emotional ties to training like a madman, but it’s not going to be the reason you grow. It’s also virtue signaling to say how hard you train. Makes people angry when you question it.

Technique. Progression. Recovery. Adherence.

 

[EnhancedFatGrappler]

haha, tough crowd . Guess it is a bit different for amateurs or gymrats like me - I primarily just want to have a great time in the gym, and feel like a mule kicked my ass when I leave. Not so much concerned with optimal growth etc, since I don't have to think about bringing up specific body parts, and work on the whole physique, with the Stage in mind. As long as I look like I lift when wearing loose clothes, I'm good.

 

[Alzadosghost]

When training to failure,If say for instance my target reps are 15. When I get to rep 15 I will not have 5 more in the tank lol I know my body good enough if I’m feeling like I’m going fly through the set easy I’ll slow down, focus harder, squeeze harder every little thing I can do to be sure at rep 15 that’s it…….

 

[Josefein421]

When training to failure,If say for instance my target reps are 15. When I get to rep 15 I will not have 5 more in the tank lol I know my body good enough if I’m feeling like I’m going fly through the set easy I’ll slow down, focus harder, squeeze harder every little thing I can do to be sure at rep 15 that’s it…….

Why not shut it down as soon as you realize it’s too light and take a rest before adjusting weight and going again?

 

[Alzadosghost]

Why not shut it down as soon as you realize it’s too light and take a rest before adjusting weight and going again?

My main focus in the gym is not pushing weight. It’s controlling the weight and squeezing the muscle. Im old. Lots of and lots of really bad injuries. I train smarter now. And it works just fine.

 

[Flex500]

Part of this Platz video is the teaching part and showing someone what actual failure is and what pushing the boundaries means. There are more guys than you all think that go through years of training and never actually work that hard. Some of them have elite genetics and with drugs that ok.

I mean I'm at the packed gym yesterday while we are out of town and there are so many 20 somethings that I'm not sure are near 5-10 RIR on any set. I bet they all pretty much look exactly like they did the year before, and the year before, and the year before.

There is something about learning what your actual limit is and then learning how to moderate it with the ebbs and flows of training, that is important.

Dave Tate does this often when he trains people. They don't go to death and beyond each training session, but he often starts by showing what it means to really push it and when he does most people certainly have more than 5-15 reps left when they thought they were done.

 

[Flocci]

My main focus in the gym is not pushing weight. It’s controlling the weight and squeezing the muscle. Im old. Lots of and lots of really bad injuries. I train smarter now. And it works just fine.

I think a lot of people misunderstand what people mean when they say this, they forget that you are still pushing yourself hard, high effort work and focus, not going through the motions and just feeling the muscle.

 

[AllOkJumpmaster]

Here is the thing, failure gets vilified, it has a place, and I do realize the merit the arguments of 1-2 RIR, etc.

That said, god damn if I don't absolutely love going to failure. I love it. I love that pain and feeling of just keeping going until the acid build is so much I cannot possibly hinge another rep.

Random funny story. When I was playing football in high school, later 90's. Most schools were not even weight training yet. We had a coach that brought in a real strength program. That said we did some "testing" and did some really goofy stuff looking back on it. One of the "test" was something like 45lh pin setting on a leg extension for "as many reps as you could do" same weight for everyone. So over the course of the day players are going through it, getting so and so many reps. Like 18 for one guy 22 for another etc. no keep in mind these reps were allowed to be broken meaning you could stop for 2-3 seconds as you got close to failure, not get off the machine or anything like that, but a few seconds rest as the reps got really tough.

So when I go, I was determined to not just do the most but blow everyone away. I ended up with 65 reps or something like that. After that though, a few others got even more. The thing was is it was more like guys "were hitting failure" but had no idea how many they could actually do. When other people saw me get 65, they "knew it was possible" and the. Pushed even harder. Like you could be in the gym and hit 10 on hacks, and think you are done, until another dude hits 13 with the same weight, and you are like "fuck" I could have done 14.

 

[Dens228]

Here is the thing, failure gets vilified, it has a place, and I do realize the merit the arguments of 1-2 RIR, etc.

That said, god damn if I don't absolutely love going to failure. I love it. I love that pain and feeling of just keeping going until the acid build is so much I cannot possibly hinge another rep.

Random funny story. When I was playing football in high school, later 90's. Most schools were not even weight training yet. We had a coach that brought in a real strength program. That said we did some "testing" and did some really goofy stuff looking back on it. One of the "test" was something like 45lh pin setting on a leg extension for "as many reps as you could do" same weight for everyone. So over the course of the day players are going through it, getting so and so many reps. Like 18 for one guy 22 for another etc. no keep in mind these reps were allowed to be broken meaning you could stop for 2-3 seconds as you got close to failure, not get off the machine or anything like that, but a few seconds rest as the reps got really tough.

So when I go, I was determined to not just do the most but blow everyone away. I ended up with 65 reps or something like that. After that though, a few others got even more. The thing was is it was more like guys "were hitting failure" but had no idea how many they could actually do. When other people saw me get 65, they "knew it was possible" and the. Pushed even harder. Like you could be in the gym and hit 10 on hacks, and think you are done, until another dude hits 13 with the same weight, and you are like "fuck" I could have done 14.

Off topic but..................

I'd be curious where the hell you grew up that most high schools weren't weight training.
I played in high school in the late 70's and early 80's and don't know of a single school in the northern part of the state that didn't have an extensive weight program. Seems like your area was way behind the times.

Hell, my high school had a better weight program than the the D1 school I went to and played at.

 

[Fa Seeshus]

I have nothing against training to failure, but I do get annoyed by the dudes who can't shut up about their "all out, gun to the head" training but they rest 20 minutes between sets. The cadence of your workout is part of the intensity.

 

[qbkilla]

Here is the thing, failure gets vilified, it has a place, and I do realize the merit the arguments of 1-2 RIR, etc.

That said, god damn if I don't absolutely love going to failure. I love it. I love that pain and feeling of just keeping going until the acid build is so much I cannot possibly hinge another rep.

Random funny story. When I was playing football in high school, later 90's. Most schools were not even weight training yet. We had a coach that brought in a real strength program. That said we did some "testing" and did some really goofy stuff looking back on it. One of the "test" was something like 45lh pin setting on a leg extension for "as many reps as you could do" same weight for everyone. So over the course of the day players are going through it, getting so and so many reps. Like 18 for one guy 22 for another etc. no keep in mind these reps were allowed to be broken meaning you could stop for 2-3 seconds as you got close to failure, not get off the machine or anything like that, but a few seconds rest as the reps got really tough.

So when I go, I was determined to not just do the most but blow everyone away. I ended up with 65 reps or something like that. After that though, a few others got even more. The thing was is it was more like guys "were hitting failure" but had no idea how many they could actually do. When other people saw me get 65, they "knew it was possible" and the. Pushed even harder. Like you could be in the gym and hit 10 on hacks, and think you are done, until another dude hits 13 with the same weight, and you are like "fuck" I could have done 14.

I started reading on forums like 2003...there was no talk of "rir" "rpe"...and yes now days the church of science demonizes failure. Not sure why either they honestly think it's better not to train to failure or they need something to sell. Usually their arguments are...

1. "Well your last set of squats wasn't to failure " No shit and the sky is blue. That doesn't mean you're smarter than me because you left 3 in the tank on your spider curls and I did mine to failure...it's a little different.

2. "Failure is too taxing you will fry your cns or overtrain." Not really if you train wirh intensity you adjust your volume and frequency accordingly. Tom platz wasn't doing full body 3x a week he didn't need to worry about hitting his legs 48 hours later because he valued intensity over frequency.

Basically the rationale is they can do more total weekly sets and hit each bodypart sooner by using rir. In other words...doing alot of sets (volume) and training parts as often as possible (frequency) are more important than intensity. When I began reading forums intensity was #1, not #3,4,5 etc in the pecking order. I personally don't think the training trends in 2024 are better than in the 90s and 2000s

 

[Big Dave Smith]

I started reading on forums like 2003...there was no talk of "rir" "rpe"...and yes now days the church of science demonizes failure. Not sure why either they honestly think it's better not to train to failure or they need something to sell. Usually their arguments are...

1. "Well your last set of squats wasn't to failure " No shit and the sky is blue. That doesn't mean you're smarter than me because you left 3 in the tank on your spider curls and I did mine to failure...it's a little different.

2. "Failure is too taxing you will fry your cns or overtrain." Not really if you train wirh intensity you adjust your volume and frequency accordingly. Tom platz wasn't doing full body 3x a week he didn't need to worry about hitting his legs 48 hours later because he valued intensity over frequency.

Basically the rationale is they can do more total weekly sets and hit each bodypart sooner by using rir. In other words...doing alot of sets (volume) and training parts as often as possible (frequency) are more important than intensity. When I began reading forums intensity was #1, not #3,4,5 etc in the pecking order. I personally don't think the training trends in 2024 are better than in the 90s and 2000s

I disagree. Those aren’t the only arguments, and you openly admit to not knowing their side.

All training requires context. If you can’t understand that, or are unwilling to understand, you can’t reasonably argue anything.

Most well educated people will increase and decrease volume, intensity, and frequency based on a long term, well thought out strategy. Those who don’t are able to get away with less thinking because of a combination of great genetics, loads of drugs, or both.

There just isn’t a good argument for bodybuilders to constantly train to failure. It always comes back to an emotional attachment to “old school”, “tough guy”, “it works for me bro”, “all my favorite pros train this way” sort of logical fallacies.

 

[qbkilla]

I disagree. Those aren’t the only arguments, and you openly admit to not knowing their side.

All training requires context. If you can’t understand that, or are unwilling to understand, you can’t reasonably argue anything.

Most well educated people will increase and decrease volume, intensity, and frequency based on a long term, well thought out strategy. Those who don’t are able to get away with less thinking because of a combination of great genetics, loads of drugs, or both.

There just isn’t a good argument for bodybuilders to constantly train to failure. It always comes back to an emotional attachment to “old school”, “tough guy”, “it works for me bro”, “all my favorite pros train this way” sort of logical fallacies.

I agree there is value in manipulation of variables over time but do not see any value in specifically what people term rir and rpe.

I am no expert in strength training but to my knowledge most tried and true strength training programs...example 5x5 which I did starting out...do not take sets to failure. You simply add weight once you get 5 sets of 5.

Say I'm benching 315 for 5,5,5,5,4. I then repeat that weight next week. Now I get 5,5,5,5,5 I now do 325 next week. It's a very simple way to progress while not training to failure for each set. At no point during the 10 sets I outlined do I need to take a guess how many I "had left in the tank" as it is irrelevant. It is extra thinking and variables that doesn't contribute to my goal, I just don't see the point.

If someone chooses to not to train to failure to progress in strength why not use a simple method such as this that doesn't involve guesswork?

 

[my_way]

I agree there is value in manipulation of variables over time but do not see any value in specifically what people term rir and rpe.

I am no expert in strength training but to my knowledge most tried and true strength training programs...example 5x5 which I did starting out...do not take sets to failure. You simply add weight once you get 5 sets of 5.

Say I'm benching 315 for 5,5,5,5,4. I then repeat that weight next week. Now I get 5,5,5,5,5 I now do 325 next week. It's a very simple way to progress while not training to failure for each set. At no point during the 10 sets I outlined do I need to take a guess how many I "had left in the tank" as it is irrelevant. It is extra thinking and variables that doesn't contribute to my goal, I just don't see the point.

If someone chooses to not to train to failure to progress in strength why not use a simple method such as this that doesn't involve guesswork?

You are both right in different situations with different goals. Your example works great for someone new to lifting or focused on just getting stronger. However, eventually you get to 500 600 lbs and it doesn’t matter how easy your muscles can take the weight, it still taking a huge toll on your joints and overall fatigue. So training to failure intelligently works out as a long term solution for hypertrophy.

Your example works great for a certain window of time, but is that sustainable long term? Significant muscle gain is a slow gradual process which takes many years longer than it takes to squat 500lbs or deadlift 600lbs.

But I’m just high on pain meds and rambling on so..
actually just read your example again and I think I misinterpreted a little bit haha