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For those who do 2 or 4 week cycles

pesty4077

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OuchThatHurts

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Just for the record, to me it was the worse way to cycle. You put all that size on in 4 weeks, just to lose it in the next 4 weeks. You are better off lower doses for a longer extended time. That is my opinion.
That's pretty much how I play it now as well. I still go 6 months or more but much lower doses. At my age, where am I going? It's great on the way up but that coming back down is brutal. Just miserable.
 

pickapeck

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Find your own schedule. Eventually we all have to go off or to a low TRT into mid range normal levels in order to regain sensitivities and "heal" from the stress of these compounds. Personally I do/did 8 on 4 off for several cycles and then off for a month or 2 followed by a long period of TRT. That was the best schedule for me. When doing the 8 on 4 off I use hCG for the 4 week part and tickle the testes somewhat with Clomid. We can debate and debate but the bottom line is how you do with your schedule, how your health markers change, and what the overall results are.
 

OuchThatHurts

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Paul Borrenson was one that discussed that method and used it himself.
Good memory, Maldorf. This was exactly it. It was talked about quite a bit.

Article by Paul Borrenson

The following article was written by the late Paul Borrenson. . Does the human race not strive for the security of mediocrity. It takes courage to stand out, to be different. To be controversial. Here I am perhaps a controversial amongst controversial's. Nobody would notice you if you where small. I guess you can live with a little attention. Nobody is going to notice me if I rehash other peoples ideas. Guess I can live with that. I have worked hard for more than a decade coaching and learning to get to where I am now. I have pretty much personally experienced everything I write about. If I cannot defend it I will not say it. If you have the knowledge to make you a 200 LB man then a 230 LB man will have controversial things to say and all the little 200 LB people will criticize the lone 230 LB person. This is simply an extension of the drive for mediocrity.

Neitzce said: THAT YOU CAN DETERMINE THE WEAKNESS OF A MANS PERSONALITY BY THE AMOUNT OF CRITISISM THAT COMES FROM HIS MOUTH.

If you are to truly succeed as a bodybuilder then you need to keep your eyes well and truly focused. Focus, do not let things distract you from achieving your objectives. Before we get into hard core use of pharmaceuticals lets agree for the thousandth time that you have to eat every couple of hours, consume plenty of quality protein, train your butt off in the gym. Go to bed early each night.

Extreme dose use of anabolic steroids does occur. It was inevitable given the mentality of us bodybuilders. I talk daily to people using 1- 5 grams a week. Not just the odd person hundred of people.

Later in the year Fergal Grace and myself with have a few papers published supporting my claim. I believe but do not as yet have the scientific evidence to support me on that. High dose short duration cycles are much less harmful than longer moderate or even low dose courses.

I propose 15 - 30 day cycles with doses 1,000 mg a day. Understand this, a course of this magnitude will produce rapid tissue gain and contradict much of what you currently believe. The possibility of it will attacked by skinny old men an ex champions alike. I say this, unless you have tried it do not knock it. You are not going to hurt yourself in 25 days. If you keep a watch for the danger signs such as rising blood pressure you can make appropriate adjustments as you go along.

After such a stack I would have 15 days clear. The stack should be designed in such as way that the gear eliminates as the off period begins. I would then do a consolidation programme low dose. Under 1 mg per kg bodyweight per day for 6 weeks. The cycle logic I proposed in my first book The Anabolic Edge.

Then I would have a 30 day break. I believe that breaks longer than 30 days are unproductive. However, not having the breaks at all is downright stupid. In our new book The Stack Book (the alpha session) Bill and I have a 10 point countdown before starting any programme let alone a big one. Preparation is everything. I imagine an airplane ready to take off. It starts up it engine, taxis out onto the run way and builds up speed. All the while the pilot initiates pre-flight checks. If anything is wrong the plane aborts.

Too often we rush into programmes without adequate preparation and the plan comes crashing down. Health matters. Sick people cannot possibly grow. So, if you are going to seriously have a crack at one of my short duration high dose programmes do the preflight checks first.

PREFLIGHT CHECKS COUNTDOWN TO THE STACKSyhrzeea112a

10. Diet
is good: lots of protein, balanced nutrition, not an entirely liquid diet. Any protein supplements, not whey alone, but blends of different isolates.

9. Getting plenty of quality rest. A good 8 hours every night. If not, then this could be the first pharmaceutical step you should consider. Something to help you sleep. Once you go on a stack this will get even harder. Unless you sleep well, in which case leave well alone, augment your sleep with a safe option. Absolutely never use GHB…This is no bodybuilding drug and has screwed up more people that Cannabis and Nubain put together. I despise all of these drugs. I was once addicted to nubain and it crept up on me and swallowed me whole for a while. GHB does stimulate serotonin and this makes for a little GH production, but it stimulates considerably more cortisol and this makes for the big muscle shrink. I prefer a simple benzodiazapene taken intermittently to avoid the possibility of mlm

8. There is no point starting the stack if you cannot get to the gym over the next few weeks. Select a stack that is appropriate to your imminent lifestyle. Likewise, if you are injured or your wife is about to have a baby. Think before you launch before you press the fire button on the stack rocket. Are all systems go ?

7. Health. Are you ill ? If so, is it something that will clear up with a good course of antibiotics ? Remember, a gear course will first drop your immune system, so if you are sick now you will be worse shortly after and this will crash the rocket.

6. Finances: be sure that you can afford the stack you are about to undertake. There is no point over-stretching yourself and not having enough money to eat. I believe that the runway ahead should be clear from the start. I like to have everything I am going to need ready in my special cupboard at the start. This way you can always build little pyramids with the gearboxes and castles with the protein tubs.

5. Remove All demotivators.

4. Even the best-laid plans of men can go wrong. Commit yourself now to your plan and be prepared to make adjustments. Have definite goals for what you are about to do. You should know where you should be at any given time or date. If you fall behind you must know how the stack works and why it works and make the appropriate adjustment. Chart your course, navigate the way ahead and you will be on course, stay on course and arrive at your destination.

3. POSITIVE ATTITUDE…..Be wary of people that will try to throw your rocket off course. Often these will be those closest to you. I find it better to keep quiet about what I am doing until I have done it. Negative people and negative thoughts must be thrown overboard right now.

2. SUPPORT SYSTEMS. I rely heavily on my family and they enable me to realize all that I achieve and succeed in. Even the writing of this book, right now my wife is keeping the children happy in the other room. This is a part of my support system. My friend Kevin is collecting me for training in an hour, My staff help take phone calls so that I can write the book. These support systems are vital and you need to know and plan to make sure they are all "on-line".

1. If everything goes wrong be prepared to make a conscious decision to abort early. If you fall ill or your dog gets sick and you cannot leave his side, then stop immediately regroup and start again later. The decision to abort should be made earlier rather than later. Do not press on regardless if the plane is going to come down, land now, not later. Of course with all being well this will not be the case.

EXAMPLE OF A HIGH DOSE SHORT DURATION STACK 18 DAYS IN A MASSAGE PARLOUR STACK This is a sophisticated stack and I wrote it for a current Mr. Universe to enable this person to gain more mass over the Christmas period. We use this stack on the back of a successful period of gains after competition. This is the second course for Mr. Universe since the show so his bodyweight has reached a plateau and something new and juicy is required to get things moving.

There is a need for oestrogen buffering firstly it is a good anti-catabolic strategy but also to keep control of the androgenic effects of the steroid aspects of this cycle. EACH DAY: 40mg Tamoxifen 1 Diazide tablet Armidex 2 times 2mg per day ANABOLIC Two simple strategies were used. Insulin in the form of 30 IU Insulintard taken first thing in the morning rising by 5 IU a day until the peak of 55 IU was achieved. This does deliver a large dose of rapid acting insulin in the first 90 minutes as Insulintard is 30 percent fast acting.

For this reason Mr. universe has to eat directly after taken the shot and again an hour later. Large meals with a total of 200 grams of carbohydrates which a 800 Kcals straight off. Growth hormone taken in two microcyles throughout the 18 kjm12,13 8 IU taken as four divided doses of 2 IU

Also T3 at a small dose of 25 MCG a day was recommended. " days on one days off this is purely to increment metabolic )i

PAUL BORRENSON
 

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4 weeks cycle hehe lol
Okay this is hilarious

Hey new guy, Pesty is 60 not 20. Why don't you add knowledge or ask a question when necessary. If you think you're going to come on here and be a smart ass, you'll be gone from here just as fast!
 

maldorf

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After reading Borrenson's ideas I tried something new. I did not want to come near the dosage he was recommending. What I did was double by usual dose and cut the usual cycle length in half. So I only ran stuff for 4 weeks, not the 8 I was used to.

Results. I gained about the same size and weight I usually did, but it took half the time. It was as if the total dosage taken was most important. Thinking about it, I trained half as much and gained just as much. Sometimes I felt like in cycles the first 4 weeks were the most remarkable and then the later weeks gains slowed considerably. So the results weren't as big of a surprise as you'd think.

I never tried it again after that! You'd think I would with results like that. I did not because I felt crappy much of the time and felt unhealthy. I didn't do blood work at the time. I can't remember when I did it. Pre or post cardiomyopathy. I'm thinking it was pre. I suffered no immediate health problems after doing it. I just felt crappy and figured I was probably doing damage. So just 4 weeks and that was the length of the experiment.

Ironically, I had my heart attack/blood clot while I was taking a relatively low dose cycle. 750 mg/wk testosterone and 200 mg tren acetate. I had been using GH and cruising on 250 mg/ wk test for the prior year. That was new.
 

Alzadosghost

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Seems to me most compounds just really start to kick at 4-5 wks. I think the returns will be limited at best but fuck it may work for ya who knows
 

maldorf

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Seems to me most compounds just really start to kick at 4-5 wks. I think the returns will be limited at best but fuck it may work for ya who knows
If you're taking a relatively high dose, even if long Ester, the effects come on fast. At least they did for me. Right now when I take my test cyp for trt, the doctor tests my levels and they peak just 24 to 48 hrs after injection.

In the past I'd also do a load in the beginning with a short Ester and maybe some orals. I can't recall what I did when I tried that 4 week cycle.
 

b_cornelius

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Just for the record, to me it was the worse way to cycle. You put all that sIize on in 4 weeks, just to lose it in the next 4 weeks. You are better off lower doses for a longer extended time. That is my opinion.
Yes I agree. There are merits to it, and people may experiment, but the month is like menstruation. As an analogy, you better get pregnant for an extended period. In all seriousness, I agree.
 

OuchThatHurts

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It's possible that what happens is that during those 4 weeks or 8 weeks is that everything is so volumized that everything stretches out (fascia) much like a water- and blood-based pump that even when coming back down from those megadoses, the fascia is stretched, the pathways are increased, and sattelite cells have created new muscle fibers to fill in the space.

I once read that we basically die with the same amount of muscle cells we're born with, they just become larger. This may be true (or not) of average people, but even more unlikely with bodybuilders. I'm basically the same level of bodyfat now as I was when I was 25 and 180lbs around the time I did my first cycle. But over two decades later, I'm 60lbs heavier. I didn't gain 60lbs of new muscle fibers. Or did I?

Accounting for some increased bone density and thickness and some fat, something new is there because I am just getting back to the gym after an auto accident and a cracked femur from a few years ago and haven't pinned or taken a PED in years. Much of it stayed. (excited though bc that first stack is going to feel like my first)

So maybe the cellular changes that happen during those blitzes creates an environment that is ripe for continued size and mass. I know if I stay on for six months and come off, I lose half or 3/4ths of what I gained but if I keep hitting the gym hard, keep eating enough protein and kcals, I eventually recover much of what I lost. So I don't know at this point. Just throwing some ideas out there.

OTH
 

machomadness22

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Pesty would you be opposed to 4 weeks on 4 weeks off? The best benefit is i could see is making your lean physique better looking short term for say a vacation or a show i don’t think you will see anything that will stick personally. Back when I ran orals i would run 4 on 4 off throughout a 12-16 week cycle. But let’s say you ran tren (just for the sake of the thought or mast prop) I personally feel you would see a short term difference but nothing long term. Just by thoughts
 

pesty4077

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Pesty would you be opposed to 4 weeks on 4 weeks off? The best benefit is i could see is making your lean physique better looking short term for say a vacation or a show i don’t think you will see anything that will stick personally. Back when I ran orals i would run 4 on 4 off throughout a 12-16 week cycle. But let’s say you ran tren (just for the sake of the thought or mast prop) I personally feel you would see a short term difference but nothing long term. Just by thoughts

Honestly, the 4 weeks on and off is not for me. Felt more like a yo yo. I rather do lower amounts for a longer period of time. Be consistent with the diet and I look good most of the year. The only thing I like 4 weeks on and 4 weeks off is insulin, but even that I think would be better at 6 to 8 weeks at a time. I no longer take orals either.

It could also be better because I am not going too much up and down the scale on doses too, but it helps me look good most the year. I think most guys can take 500 mg total a week for extended periods of time without adverse effects, providing blood work looks good. Then go to 200 mg total for awhile. Say like 4 months on, then 2 months. This won't work for a competitive body builder though, since we know you need to take more, but for the everyday guy to look his best all year with decent muscle size, I say it is.
 

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