Gainkeeper/PCT questions.

[Newman]

Hi guys.

I was just reading an old (2002) "gainkeepers" type thread & it was pretty dated, but still interesting:

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/showthread.php?t=320



Eagle said that clomid & nolva caused a strong reduction in IGF & Gh, so he felt it was a bad choice for PCT. I'm sorts surprised by that because I was unaware of any reduction in these peptides by the usual SERMS & I've seen them recomended for PCT many times. Anyone got any info on that?



Mr Magoo stated that DNP is good for PCT because even though we usually see it as a fat burner, it supposedly has protein sparing qualities too. He advocated something like 200mg/day. I'd love to hear more on that.



Cryptasm recomended a French antidepressant as a PCT gainkeeper cortisol blocker. He said that around that time it had been approved for anti-cortisol use. Anyone tried it yet? It's been 7 years, hopefully someone's tried it by now.



Thanks.

 

[iprimate]

Eagle said that clomid & nolva caused a strong reduction in IGF & Gh, so he felt it was a bad choice for PCT. I'm sorts surprised by that because I was unaware of any reduction in these peptides by the usual SERMS & I've seen them recomended for PCT many times. Anyone got any info on that?

There is evidence that Tamoxifen inhibits the action of IGF[7][8] and that Tamoxfen reduces IGF-I levels[9][10]. There is also evidence that it decreases GH levels[11][12].

Tamoxifen also increases SHBG levels[1][2]. There is animal model evidence of Tamoxifen's hepatotoxicity[3][4]. There is also animal model evidence that Tamoxifen permanently arrests vertical growth[5][6] (so under 21s that insist on using AAS shouldn't risk using Tamoxifen).

Cryptasm recomended a French antidepressant as a PCT gainkeeper cortisol blocker. He said that around that time it had been approved for anti-cortisol use. Anyone tried it yet? It's been 7 years, hopefully someone's tried it by now.

There are several antidepressants that reduce cortisol levels but the evidence for Tianeptine reducing cortisol secretion is unclear. Most papers show it has no effect on cortisol[13][14][15]. Tianeptine appears to decrease cortisol only at high doses (>= 10mg/kg)[15]. There is better evidence that Mirtazapine decreaes cortisol secretion[16][17][18][19][20].

I have tried Mirtazapine. I found it to produce daytime sleepiness and carbohydrate cravings. It is a good drug to use if you have depression together with loss of appetite, anxiety and/or insomnia but I doubt that many have these symptoms during or post-cycle(?).

If you just want cortisol reduction then there are drugs whose principal action is to reduce cortisol. One such drug is metyrapone. I plan to give it a try soon.

 

[Newman]

Thanks Primate.

There is evidence that Tamoxifen inhibits the action of IGF[7][8] and that Tamoxfen reduces IGF-I levels[9][10]. There is also evidence that it decreases GH levels[11][12].

Tamoxifen also increases SHBG levels[1][2]. There is animal model evidence of Tamoxifen's hepatotoxicity[3][4]. There is also animal model evidence that Tamoxifen permanently arrests vertical growth[5][6] (so under 21s that insist on using AAS shouldn't risk using Tamoxifen).

Despite the findings you posted, guys seem to get good results using clomid in PCT. Is there a better option available?





There are several antidepressants that reduce cortisol levels but the evidence for Tianeptine reducing cortisol secretion is unclear. Most papers show it has no effect on cortisol[13][14][15]. Tianeptine appears to decrease cortisol only at high doses (>= 10mg/kg)[15]. There is better evidence that Mirtazapine decreaes cortisol secretion[16][17][18][19][20].

I have tried Mirtazapine. I found it to produce daytime sleepiness and carbohydrate cravings. It is a good drug to use if you have depression together with loss of appetite, anxiety and/or insomnia but I doubt that many have these symptoms during or post-cycle(?).

If you just want cortisol reduction then there are drugs whose principal action is to reduce cortisol. One such drug is metyrapone. I plan to give it a try soon.

I've read that in large doses plain old vitamin C also reduces cortisol, but I'm not sure how effective it is for that effect.

Got any info on Mr Magoos theory that DNP actually spares protein when used as a PCT?

I'll look into that too, but if you have any info, it would be much appreciated.

 

[Newman]

I looked into DNP to find out more about it's reported protein sparing qualities, but I found out that because it's a phenol, it's carcinogenic.

I don't know it's level of carcinogen activity (I'd like to see it's placing on an index), but it doesn't sound too good as PCT.

 

[iprimate]

I looked into DNP to find out more about it's reported protein sparing qualities, but I found out that because it's a phenol, it's carcinogenic.

I don't know it's level of carcinogen activity (I'd like to see it's placing on an index), but it doesn't sound too good as PCT.

There is no evidence -- in vitro or in vivo -- that DNP is carcinogenic. AFAIK there is no data specifically on the carcinogenicity of DNP. The **broken link removed** is consistent with this as is the toxicology profile from the ATDSR.

The above notwithstanding I don't think DNP has any role in to play in post-cycle LBM retention. The broad strategy to retain your gains is to (a) restore endogenous testosterone production; (b) normalise estrogen levels; and (c) normalise cortisol levels. I think it is probably better to commence this management on-cycle rather than introduce abrupt discontinuities.

 

[nickman...]

There is no evidence -- in vitro or in vivo -- that DNP is carcinogenic. AFAIK there is no data specifically on the carcinogenicity of DNP. The **broken link removed** is consistent with this as is the toxicology profile from the ATDSR.

The above notwithstanding I don't think DNP has any role in to play in post-cycle LBM retention. The broad strategy to retain your gains is to (a) restore endogenous testosterone production; (b) normalise estrogen levels; and (c) normalise cortisol levels. I think it is probably better to commence this management on-cycle rather than introduce abrupt discontinuities.

very good point ....

 

[Newman]

There is no evidence -- in vitro or in vivo -- that DNP is carcinogenic. AFAIK there is no data specifically on the carcinogenicity of DNP. The **broken link removed** is consistent with this as is the toxicology profile from the ATDSR.

The above notwithstanding I don't think DNP has any role in to play in post-cycle LBM retention. The broad strategy to retain your gains is to (a) restore endogenous testosterone production; (b) normalise estrogen levels; and (c) normalise cortisol levels. I think it is probably better to commence this management on-cycle rather than introduce abrupt discontinuities.

Thanx Primate.

It's good to know that DNP isn't going to contribute significantly to a future cancer tumor.

Regarding your view of "gainkeeping" & PCT, I'm not saying you are wrong, but if a non steroidal anabolic can help offset any lag time in normal HPTA restoration, then I don't see it as being useless or bad.

As an example, Chavos' SARMS-4 apparently makes our androgen receptors more sensitive to androgens & should theoretically help prevent loss of muscle during the recovery phase (end) of the cycle when endogenous hormones may not yet be fully back to their normal levels.

Of course PCT is about re-establishing all the normal hormone levels, but that doesn't mean it's always such a smooth transition & if something non-steroidal can assist anabolism while the HPTA is getting restored, then that's probably going to be a welcome product.

Whether or not a comfortably low dose of DNP would exert enough anabolism to be significant, I don't know. It was just something that Mr Magoo mentioned in the thread I linked to in my 1st post. I don't think too many guys would want to come off a bulking cycle only to start a heavy dose cycle of DNP & face all the potential sides involved with that, so only small doses would likely be acceptable. If small doses didn't pack enough punch to support/maintain anabolism while hormones were being restored, then DNP would probably be useless as a PCT.

I'm thinking SARMS-4 will likely become prized for PCT application, but regarding the 3 broad goals of PCT that you mentioned, I'm not aware of SARMS-4 doing anything to restore natty test levels or to reduce estrogen or cortisol. It may do these things, but I don't remember reading about it.

Thanx again for the DNP info.

 

[MR. BMJ]

Damn, I remember in 1997 when both Big Canuk (Dave) and JuiceMonkey (PJ) released the original version of the Gainskeeper formula....talk about a blast from the past...lol.

BMJ

 

[Myck]

Unless you're taking other bridging compounds (namely insulin and GH), I'd be wary of using DNP in PCT. You'll likely be losing some muscle tissue post-cycle, and DNP runs the risk of being catabolic, especially if your diet isn't totally dialed in as far as carb intake (and you'd probably need a few DNP cycles under your belt to know exactly how many carbs you need).

Personally, I think DNP is best suited for use during a cycle, or pre cycle to lean up somewhat. I'd just prefer to have some type of anabolic compounds present (aas, gh, slin, peptides) to counteract any possible catabolism.

I've seen posts on a few boards that say DNP is protein-sparing, but I've never seen any actual evidence that this is true. It would be GREAT if it was, however.

 

[tsimehc75]

so what would you consider the ideal pct after a bulk cycle?

 

[Myck]

so what would you consider the ideal pct after a bulk cycle?

I wish I knew. I'm still experimenting with finding the ideal PCT. I've never been happy with my PCT results. Two things that, in my case, actually HAVE made a difference...

-Longer, lower dose cycles with long, very gradual tapers (e.g. 24 week cycles w/ 8 week tapers). My body seems to develop a new status quo when I hold more weight and more muscle for a longer period of time. I'm more likely to hold onto the extra muscle that I've gained during a longer cycle.

-Bridging compounds while off-cycle. Everything from slin, GH, and peptides to large amounts of creatine.

I'm an older guy (mid 40's), so it's likely I'll start HRT soon. I definitely won't miss the off cycle crashes.

 

[tap]

so what would you consider the ideal pct after a bulk cycle?

i like using 500 iu of hcg every 3 days along with 50mg of clomid, and creatine 2000mg vit c & d.been off 3 months from a yr cycle and havnt lost hardly any strength and no size .Im just not as hard/lean and dont look as pumped 24/7. but ive decreased my training volume abt 30%, kept protien high and eating a few more carbs and fats.

 

[natabolic]

thanks to the last three posters.

SO FUCKING HELPFUL.
EXACTLY WHAT I WAS LOOKING FOR.

whats with all the spammers on the board recently?

 

[truckdaddy]

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...forum/59123-sarms-new-post-cycle-therapy.html