Great post by Homon at IM - thought you may enjoy

[VTliftVT]

Givens:

1.) The goal is to maximally activate skeletal muscle during each repetition. I believe this is what you've said before no?...

2.) The eccentric (lowering) portion of the lifting is vital and most important for stimulating hypertrophy. (This is demonstrated extremely well in the research literature. I'd be happy to provide references.)

3.) The force velocity relationship of skeletal muscle dictates the we are weaker on concentric (lifting) and stronger on lowering contractions. (You can lower a heavier weight than you can lift up - this is simply a function of the manner in which skeletal muscle works.)

4.) Given the above, it follows that you'd want to lift a given load such that you a.) make things easier on the upswing (lifting up) when you're weaker so that b.) you're using as heavy a load as possible on the downswing (lowering the load) when the muscle is STRONGER and you're performing the part of the rep that's most important for muscle growth.

IN SUMMARY: You optimize loading during a rep by "cheating" or using body english to help lift the weight up on the concentric so you can have a heavier, more stressful load on the negative, which is the most important part of the rep for producing growth.

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ALSO, there's a growing body of research showing that ballistic type contractions (think plyometrics or Ronnie Coleman doing BO Rows), will produce a doublet or triplet neuronal firing pattern (2 or 3 action potentials in more rapid than normal succession) and that this produces a "twitch potentiation" (See Stuart Binder-MacLeod's work and myosin light chain phosphorylation) whereby the muscle is STRONGER after a doublet or triplet.

SUMMARY OF ABOVE: A ballistic (bouncy) or rapidly (not slow and controlled) initiated contraction produces a phenomenon that INCREASES muscle force and therefore loading during the set.

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GRAND SUMMARY:
Being ballistic or a bit sloppy with form likely increases muscle force output, allows you to lift heavier loads so you can overload the eccentric (lowering) and thereby optimize the loading stimulus during each rep.

Now, of course, this requires you to have good activation ("mind muscle connection") with the target muscle, but given that, what's wrong with the above?... (Sounds like a good deal to me. )

-Scott

 

[Pharm_Fed]

It sounds like essentially this is saying that poor form is a good thing?

 

[NovaZ]

It sounds like essentially this is saying that poor form is a good thing?

You should probably reread that if that is the conclusion you got from that.

 

[Pharm_Fed]

You should probably reread that if that is the conclusion you got from that.

So if my conclusion is incorrect, explain this statement in the Grand Summary.

Being ballistic or a bit sloppy with form likely increases muscle force output

 

[SABAGOY]

His points would go well when talking about Emerics training...from what little i have seen/know about it.

 

[Thewhite9t]

Okay so what I am getting is that we should
1) Work with heavy weights
2) Do the lowering phase of the lift slowly
3) Do the lifting phase explosively


Am I right?

 

[NovaZ]

Now, of course, this requires you to have good activation ("mind muscle connection") with the target muscle, but given that, what's wrong with the above?... (Sounds like a good deal to me. )

-Scott

The bolded is what should be emphasized. Poor form is not what he is talking about. He is talking about responsible cheating on the positive so that you can overload yourself with a heavier yet strict negative to enhance your exercise and growth.

So if my conclusion is incorrect, explain this statement in the Grand Summary.

 

[PHIL HERNON]

Yes

His points would go well when talking about Emerics training...from what little i have seen/know about it.

Emeric was doing this 20 years ago........good info though!

 

[Sesshomaru]

This is a poor application of logic on eccentrics and ballistic movements.

Hes touting eccentrics and a cheated concentric because it allows you to use heavier weights. That means hes getting at a way to increase the loading to stimulate the muscle (this has to be true otherwise youre gonna go into the superslow training fad that was pimped a while back).

So its the load that matters; however, this is where his logic falls apart:

This from Modern Trends in Strength:

First of all, if eccentric training can bring the highest level of combined strength gains (eccentric strength gains + isometric strength gains + concentric strength gains), it also leads to less concentric strength gains. Research has found that training with only yielding actions leads to gains in overcoming strength which are 2-3 times lower than when overcoming training is used.

2. There is some evidence that the neural mechanisms used during concentric and eccentric actions are different (Lionnamo et al. 2002; Grabiner ands Owings 2002; Fang et al. 2001). To quote Grabiner and Owings (2002): “There is a dearth of direct evidence that concentric and eccentric contractions are controlled differently by the CNS”. And this is not only evidenced during the action, but also during the preparatory period,
hinting that the motor planning processes are different for both types of actions.

While it’s fairly well established that accentuating the eccentric or yielding portion of an exercise is probably the best way to stimulate muscle growth, mostly because it is the part responsible for the most muscle micro-trauma, the concentric portion of the movement also plays a role in stimulating size gains.

According to the findings of Seger et al. (1998) eccentric and concentric
training also seem to have a location-specific hypertrophic response; eccentric training leading to more hypertrophy in the distal portions of the muscle and concentric training leading to more hypertrophy in the mid-point of the muscle. This is one more reason to include both types of training if you want to maximize muscle size gains.

Its fine to use ballistic motions on concentric motion to increase force development but cannot be developed at the poundages and rep ranges that are required for eccentric rep training. Using body-english nullifies the argument about using ballistics because youre not improving rate of force development in the muscle or movement youre trying to target (i.e. using your back to swing up a bar on a biceps curl).

To my knowledge, Ronnie was explosive on his rows, but he wasnt doing eccentrics along with them.

 

[NovaZ]

Okay so what I am getting is that we should
1) Work with heavy weights
2) Do the lowering phase of the lift slowly
3) Do the lifting phase explosively


Am I right?

I should have said it that way. Good post.

 

[PHIL HERNON]

Ok

This is a poor application of logic on eccentrics and ballistic movements.

Hes touting eccentrics and a cheated concentric because it allows you to use heavier weights. That means hes getting at a way to increase the loading to stimulate the muscle (this has to be true otherwise youre gonna go into the superslow training fad that was pimped a while back).

So its the load that matters; however, this is where his logic falls apart:

This from Modern Trends in Strength:



Its fine to use ballistic motions on concentric motion to increase force development but cannot be developed at the poundages and rep ranges that are required for eccentric rep training. Using body-english nullifies the argument about using ballistics because youre not improving rate of force development in the muscle or movement youre trying to target (i.e. using your back to swing up a bar on a biceps curl).

To my knowledge, Ronnie was explosive on his rows, but he wasnt doing eccentrics along with them.

Sounds great..........where are your pictures.....this on paper nonsense works great on paper........show us in real time.

 

[Thewhite9t]

Sounds great..........where are your pictures.....this on paper nonsense works great on paper........show us in real time.

I could look at his pictures, but there are too many other factors involved. His age, lifting experience, genetics, enhancement... the list goes on.

I think our best bet it to start with what looks good on paper (hypothesis) and test it. Draw our own conclusions.

It's called the scientific method.

 

[PHIL HERNON]

Good idea.....

I could look at his pictures, but there are too many other factors involved. His age, lifting experience, genetics, enhancement... the list goes on.

I think our best bet it to start with what looks good on paper (hypothesis) and test it. Draw our own conclusions.

It's called the scientific method.

Now what do you call someone who has been bigger than you ever probably will be..........who has been there.....done that......used science and methods up the ying yang.....and is telling someone just starting out like yourself the best way to approach things? What do you call the person who is trying to get that size and is not listening?

 

[Muay Thai]

Now what do you call someone who has been bigger than you ever probably will be..........who has been there.....done that......used science and methods up the ying yang.....and is telling someone just starting out like yourself the best way to approach things? What do you call the person who is trying to get that size and is not listening?

i am enjoying yoru cut and dry positive reinforcement bro

i would much rather listen to you who walkd the walk rather than a fucking scientist or articulate nerd

 

[PHIL HERNON]

Yes

i am enjoying yoru cut and dry positive reinforcement bro

i would much rather listen to you who walkd the walk rather than a fucking scientist or articulate nerd

hahaah I dont have a lot of time and I may come accross harsh........I just try to tell it like I know it.....I dont know it all or even close, but I know what I know.....you know?

 

[weltweite]

I agree with the idea of slow negatives, explosive positives.

Sometimes a little cheat in the movement really helps to stimulate muscle growth.

If I recall, one of arnolds favorite bicep exercises was cheat curls.

Works for me

But remember, there is a fine balance between a little cheating, and using so much momentum the muscle is not under tension anymore.

 

[LATS]

HOMON IS FROM MY HOME TOWN.. he is, by far, the hardest training guy i have ever seen.. he tortures himself.. in a good way .. he also knows his crap.. he trains with dave henry and also advises him on diet ect.. he knows the science and tries to apply it to "real world".. plus.. they dont come much more humble or down to earth.. all around good guy..

that being said, emeric has the right idea.. although it is tough for most to do with out much help.. the issue that i see is that with the eccentric being so much stronger, no matter how much ya cheat on the positive, teh negative will be able to handle it just fine and my not tax it much.. although it would still be better than the standard lifting protocol..

many studies show that a positive is needed to garner growth as much as the negative.. so just doing eccentrics does not show much in growth according to many studies.. so again emeric is right.. a tough positive followed by a tough negative is the way to go.. but, again it is very tough if not impossible for most to do unless you have willing partners.. now if i can just get my wife to follow me around the gym for about a hour or so and lift heavy objects i.... oh forget it

 

[Muay Thai]

hahaah I dont have a lot of time and I may come accross harsh........I just try to tell it like I know it.....I dont know it all or even close, but I know what I know.....you know?

well i jus want u to know i brag about you a lot at my gym where i personal train and its great to know i have people like you in my network very inspiring

 

[PHIL HERNON]

Yes

HOMON IS FROM MY HOME TOWN.. he is, by far, the hardest training guy i have ever seen.. he tortures himself.. in a good way .. he also knows his crap.. he trains with dave henry and also advises him on diet ect.. he knows the science and tries to apply it to "real world".. plus.. they dont come much more humble or down to earth.. all around good guy..

that being said, emeric has the right idea.. although it is tough for most to do with out much help.. the issue that i see is that with the eccentric being so much stronger, no matter how much ya cheat on the positive, teh negative will be able to handle it just fine and my not tax it much.. although it would still be better than the standard lifting protocol..

many studies show that a positive is needed to garner growth as much as the negative.. so just doing eccentrics does not show much in growth according to many studies.. so again emeric is right.. a tough positive followed by a tough negative is the way to go.. but, again it is very tough if not impossible for most to do unless you have willing partners.. now if i can just get my wife to follow me around the gym for about a hour or so and lift heavy objects i.... oh forget it

They actually have machines that apply more stress on the negative stroke.

 

[LATS]

yeah.. i had seen them at one of the fitness conventions.. most clubs dont have them.. at least not yet.. the question is.. when this technology is more widely available will free weights be null and void..? awesome physiques have been made with out using these techniques but, could these techniques cut the development times in half? interesting to think about..
i after seeing emerics post once i made my wife come out to my home gym and try these techniques out.. AFTER ABOUT 10 MINUTES SHE WAS DONE!! LOL.. she was not into loading machines rep after rep..lol..