HCG Debate

[tenny]

HCG every 4th day on cycle at 500 IUs works wonders for me, however I always do Masteron on every cycle also to balance estrogen levels, it works like a charm. No HCG during PCT. God bless you friends. Minister.

now that is a great idea!!!!!

 

[method2madness]

I've just come off a lengthy cycle and I have no choice, my boys were not kicking very well. I hopped on 2500 mg. hcg per week split over 2 doses along with 25 mg. nolvadex and things are going very well.

 

[Anafit]

.by taking this (highley estradiol) substance
your body (the male body) is FORCED to start producing
testosterone.....even with the presence of high levels of
synthetic test already in the system

Bro, this is all wrong. Your body doesn't make more test because your E2 levels are higher, it makes less. Estrogens are the trigger of the negative feedback loop to the HPTA. Lower E levels means make more Test, not higher E levels.
Your HPTA does not start making more Test while you're using exogenous Test. HCG simply mimics LH and that triggers your Testes to start working again. Sort of as a primer so that when you come off your Testes are more ready to supply your natural Test.

 

[tenny]

Bro, this is all wrong. Your body doesn't make more test because your E2 levels are higher, it makes less. Estrogens are the trigger of the negative feedback loop to the HPTA. Lower E levels means make more Test, not higher E levels.
Your HPTA does not start making more Test while you're using exogenous Test. HCG simply mimics LH and that triggers your Testes to start working again. Sort of as a primer so that when you come off your Testes are more ready to supply your natural Test.

your right

i meant to say (start producing period).......NOT "start producing test"
because your right, you wont produce test, but you WILL produce function
this is whole reason for hcg on CYCLE.......NO???

but i think your wrong on the bolded quote
i would like to see a study on that
and how do your testes KNOW when you come off???
because E levels rise???? they'er diff. NOT lowering!!!!

good call though

so you were listening

 

[lightofmyboner]

I agree for the most part , my issue with this is the amount of hCG taken to help battle the suppression, depending on the dose and frequency of injection , and the length of time can defeat the purpose IF you desensitize the Leydig's cells. Typically , this does not happen at 250 mcg twice a week for less then 12 weeks , but all people are different and if you do step over the line it could be bad, and chances of rekindling nat test would be very hard..

That is correct.

Desensitizing the Leydig cells can dig you into a much deeper hole than mere suppression alone. At that point, regardless of your body's homeostatic mechanisms (LH secretion) occurring in order to restore natural test production, your testicles themselves, at the receptor level, are now the issue. You now have more to deal with.

I'd have to search to find the relevant studies, but hCG dosing amount is much more important than dosing frequency as far as leydig cell desensitization is concerned. That's one of the reasons why many argue hCG on-cycle is a safer bet than hCG post-cycle. While on-cycle, you can do fine with 250-500iu 2-3x per week -- a dose that has shown to be relatively safe as far as desensitization is concerned. Otherwise, using hCG exclusively post-cycle requires dosing in a much greater amount in order to jumpstart the testicles when they have been without a "go" signal from either LH or hCG for a prolonged period of time.

 

[Anafit]

your right

i meant to say (start producing period).......NOT "start producing test"
because your right, you wont produce test, but you WILL produce function
this is whole reason for hcg on CYCLE.......NO???

but i think your wrong on the bolded quote
i would like to see a study on that
and how do your testes KNOW when you come off???
because E levels rise???? they'er diff. NOT lowering!!!!

good call though

so you were listening

You're going to have to tell me what "produce function" means.

The reason for HCG on cycle is to mimic LH and fool the Testes into thinking they are going to produce Test. The signal that says "produce Test" comes down from your brain though via completely different hormone.

Your Testes don't sense when you're on or off. That function takes place in the hypothalamus. That's where the decision to make or not make Test is made based on how high your E levels are. That's why taking an AI alone will raise your Test levels.

 

[tenny]

You're going to have to tell me what "produce function" means.

The reason for HCG on cycle is to mimic LH and fool the Testes into thinking they are going to produce Test. The signal that says "produce Test" comes down from your brain though via completely different hormone.

Your Testes don't sense when you're on or off. That function takes place in the hypothalamus. That's where the decision to make or not make Test is made based on how high your E levels are. That's why taking an AI alone will raise your Test levels.

ummmmmmm........start functioning???

also.........post the source of your info

 

[Anafit]

ummmmmmm........start functioning???

also.........post the source of your info

Most of what I posted is in just about any book on endocrinology. It's pretty basic stuff. Was there a particular aspect that you wanted a reference for? I can look it up for you.

 

[tenny]

Most of what I posted is in just about any book on endocrinology. It's pretty basic stuff. Was there a particular aspect that you wanted a reference for? I can look it up for you.

well......yea man
this is what the thread is about

if you have some info, post it up

but we would all rather hear about past experience
rather than cut and paste bullshit "hypothalamus"....lol
come on man.......please speak in lay-mans terms
we dont all have phds.......know what i'm saying???

 

[Anafit]

Macro does that. He's the one who is ESL to laymen. I thought I did a pretty good job of keeping it simple. I can post medical literature but that's going to be a lot more confusing than what I wrote.

This one is pretty easy to follow. They gave men an AI (letro) and their T levels increased 99% to 146%.

Comparative Assessment in Young and Elderly Men of the Gonadotropin Response to Aromatase Inhibition -- T’Sjoen et al. 90 (10): 5717 -- Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism

This explanation is relatively simple too.

HPTA is Hypothalamus-Pituitary-Testes-Axis this is the endocrine primary androgen and testosterone making area for males, simply put the pituitary gland (anterior) releases two gonadal hormones LH (Luteinizing Hormone) and (FSH) Follicle Stimulating Hormone) these two are released into the blood stream and when they reach the testicles they tell the Leydig cells in the testicles to produce Testosterone.

BTW, I don't cut and paste anything without notating it as such by putting it in italics. Just so you don't get the wrong impression, I have been posting about these things for 10 years and have 55,000 posts over that time on two boards. I don't really need to cut and paste. It's mostly committed to memory now. (when it works)

 

[tenny]

thanks you sir

 

[DrivingForward]

Personally,

I like using HCG... I tend to use it 2x per cycle... About week number 8 (when my sex drive is starting to decline, despite peak levels of test) and about week 16 (as Im about to come off). It really helps my sex drive, the size of my testicles, and seems to speed my recovery.

Oh, and as far as doseage 500IU per day is supposedly safer and less likely to desensitize the Leydig's cells ( I think Dr. Crisler said something along those lines)... but the 500ED takes a while to be effective. I really prefer 1000IU a day for 7 days, and then 500 IU a day for the remainder (until my 10kIU is gone)

 

[hellraiser27]

My experience

I have tried hcg a couple of times. Once during cycle and once after a cycle.
I don't remember the specific details. But both times I didnt notice anything.

IMO hcg just creates a balancing act that you have to deal with. One thing that I learned is that my body reacts better the less chemicals I try to mix together.
When the paper work says 'try to fool your body blah blah blah' I tend to not mess with it anymore.

just my 2 cents

 

[DrS]

Nice

A lot of good view points and the debate , while I know that the dosing is the most important aspect of concern when it comes to the Leydig's cells , but a few studies I have in my position show issues with lower doses at very extended periods. The problem is that the results don't show in the form of an on/off switch ( production/shut down ) but more so of the extent of which it works at that time ( kind of worded poorly but I hope you get what I am saying). I love this debate and appreciate the responses.

 

[tri-terror]

What about someone blasting and cruising? Would Hcg help maintain testicular function if taken while "cruising" on lower test dosages? With the intent of same day coming off cycle for good?

 

[biggreenstacks]

HCG

I use 300 iu's 3 times per week from the end of the 2nd week on until my last pin. Then start my pct 2 weeks from then.

 

[Ehren]

What about someone blasting and cruising? Would Hcg help maintain testicular function if taken while "cruising" on lower test dosages? With the intent of same day coming off cycle for good?

In my experience, yes. HcG during a blast makes me feel better, but requires more frequent dosing and the effects are *seemingly* shorter, as in, I need more frequent dosing to maintain testes size.

On a cruise (150-200mg a week for me) less frequent dosing gets the testes size back and it seems to stay around longer.

Also (for me) once I drop to around 150mg a week, the testes seem to start coming back all on their own, but not all the way.

 

[tenny]

I use 300 iu's 3 times per week from the end of the 2nd week on until my last pin. Then start my pct 2 weeks from then.

not a bad way of thinking right there

on longer cycles
this is exactly what my friend does

 

[infinity1]

HCG-250iu-every third day on any cycle over 12 weeks in length. Last inj. 2-3 weeks after last aas inj-dependiing on ester. Never for PCT.

 

[Dave_19]

250iu every 2-3 days while on is an ideal dose. You can cycle it in and out of any HRT/TRT as well. I think it can be useful but I would never ever use it for PCT. I don't know how this mistake got so out of hand for so long with it.