healthy?.. conditioning seems to be to blame..

LATS · May 10, 2005

we seem to discuss the health of bodybuilding alot lately.. many state that the massive size of the bodybuilders is unhealthy.."they take way to much gear and have to be unhealthy" is the cry.. but, lets look at history first.. 1) munzer.. he was not known for his size at all.. he was known for his crazy conditioning.. he took enormous amounts of fat burners and water loss aids to achieve this conditioning.. he died.. 2) momo b. he died because he refused to drink any water so that he could achieve a awesome level of conditioning.. his system just shut down.. 3) flex wheeler.. not know for his massive freakiness but, his symmetry.. he was know to become very ill a few times from dehydration.. he did this to achive a certain level of conditioning.. his kidney ailment was genetic but, constant abuse by limiting the amount of water did not help matter at all.. 4) mo mustafa.. collapsed just recently at a show.. he did not collapse because of roids.. he went down because of dehydration and abuse of water loss aids.. i could go on wih more bodybuilders but, you get my point.. wheeler, munzer, momo were not exactly know for being mass freaks.. they were know for their symmetry..
we all know what pains we go through to compete.. the water deprivation.. the food deprivation.. the cardio ect.. all to achieve the ripped look.. and th ones who suffer are the smaller guys (mostly) known for their semmetry and their conditioning.. it is much healthy to be bigger and fuller.. with a little water... than to be dehydrated and drawn.. do the math.. what hurts the kidneys more? anabolics or dehydration? simple really..
all i am saying is that maybe the powers that be need to go back to the guys being fuller and healthier on stage.. we say the mainstream public can not identify with the freaks.. do you really think they can identify with vein ridden abdominals more?? they may not be able to identify with the mass freaks but, they sure as hell can not identify with shredded glutes either..
we sit here and look at picyure of the pros two weeks out and make comments like " he is holding water".. "he better get his conditioning down.." " he needs to drop more weight".. we say this about guys who have achieved a level of conditioning that already baffles the mind but, we want more.. the ifbb wants more.. "they were holding 5 pounds too much water" wtf.. look at his fullness.. look at his flow.. he looks healthier..nope.. he is holding too much water.. he is five pounds over weight..GIVE ME A BREAK.,.
is the size the problem?? or is the level of conditioning the problem..?? i remmenber having this conversation with a certain ifbb pro and he stated "we are not getting sick in the off season now are we?. the littel guys are are getting it worse than the bigger guys.. ronnie is not collapsing backstage.. but, he takes shot about not being as shredded as in the past..but, some of the guys know for being shreeded are being attended to by paramedics and refusing the i.v... go figure" we need to look at the broader picture.. maybe big is not that bad.. maybe looking like you just came out of a concentration camp while the announceer says "he has a very beautiful physique.. he is known for his conditioning" may be the kiss of death.. just a thought..
i know that i used to feel great in the off season.. felt very unhealthy before a show.. not worth it to me.... just my two cents..

bodybuilding can be very safe.. going to extremes to see your spleen is not..

AWN2004 · May 10, 2005

Allthough diruetic use and extremely low levels of water and body fat are very dangerous, so is taking extremely large amounts of androgens in the off-season. What I'm saying is this. You pointed out very obvious cases of diruetic mishaps, but what about the guys using a large dose of test coupled with a hefty diet to get big in the off season. Used in conjunction with certain anti-e's, it's a recipie for disaster. Large amounts of even lower fat red meat plus extra calories to grow can make your cholesterol shy rocket. Many of those having problems may even have a certain pre-disposed disposition for elevated lipid profiles, yet still feel the need to think "I'm ok". More so than anything I think its the sheer drive one has to be the best that ends up cutting their life short. You ignore warning signs and before you know it, its too late. Its sad we have to see certain people go down to get that point across. Big at what cost? It does not matter what season you are in, pre-contest, off-season, whatever....you play with fire you might get burned. This is in no way an anti-drug post...as I get ready for my show....I think about this every day....just thought Id post my feelings on the subject.

Skip · May 10, 2005

Lats,
I agree with alot of what you are saying BUT.... the deaths that have been happening and being posted on this board and my board, etc., are from heart attacks, almost exclusively, and are not happening backstage at a competition.

The reality is that there is way too much focus on variables to get big and not enough focus on variables on trying to remain healthy. I have posted about this before and I believe that is the main reason that things like this happen. Here is one example: Client: " I am going to use 87% lean beef instead of 96% because I don't want to have to buy extra "good" fat when I can get the added fat calories in the 87% beef ".

That is only one example of a poor decision that can impact your health down the road. Others include poor gear planning, poor anti e planning, use of clen, ECA, etc... The list goes on and on.....

Skip

LATS · May 10, 2005

DONT GET ME WRONG SKIP.. i agree with what your saying but, there are other factors at play here besides the "get too big" premise.. all i was trying to state is that while we look at the problems of youngblood and matarazzo and they are obviously heart related, we have a tendency to ignore the past and what is right in front of us.. guys who are ill backstage and being attended to rarely makes the list.. momo and munzer dying is brought up but, the actual cause of the deaths is often ignored..
i agree 100% that the idiots.. yes idiots, who do not get regular checkups, who ingest enourmous amounts of bad fats, who over indulge in androgen (although they ignore all other factors to bodybuilding success ie good diet) who use t3 and other fat loss drugs and ignore the obvious component of diet ect ect are the ones who are giving the sport the rap we are getting.. if you are going to spend $1000.00 on gear, for the love of god , spend some on multi vitamins, minerals, fish oils, niacin ect.. keep things in check during cycles and before i show, if you can barely function..WAKE UP.. something bad could await you.. some can "suffer" before a show and remain health as a horse.. but, know YOUR..YES YOUR.. limitations.. we are all different and respond differently..

Coopie · May 10, 2005

Doctors and Networking?

LATS, I am in COMPLETE agreement with you, however, one important variable is finding a good, knowledgable doctor. I avoided going to the doctor for nearly 10 years simply because he was completely ignorant about androgens. I was open about what I was using, and I could tell by the bewildered look on his face, not only was this "doctor" clueless about what I was saying - he gave me a canned response of "those drugs will kill you". Right then I knew I needed to go find another doctor.

It took me a good decade to find a doc who was educated about steroids and who knew what to look for in my bloodwork, etc. to ensure that I was not harming myself. Sadly, this doctor has died (accidental death - not related to anything he was using) and again I am at a loss.

Would anyone else be interested in sharing information - such as in a "network" format - about doctors who we would recommend to our friends here at ProMuscle? My former doctor was great and I would have referred each one of you to him had he not died. I'd like some feedback on this!

Coopie

xcelbeyond · May 10, 2005

I think it's unfortunate that

MANY people are dying at a much younger age from heart disease, which includes people that DO NOT use ANY drugs as well as those that have used or are using steroids.

Now steroids may DRASTICALLY affect lipid profiles, which is one of the better indicators of heart disease. A person this happens to may already be predisposed to heart disease and roids only exacerbates this.

You see YOUNG people dying ALL THE TIME from heart disease - that are MUCH younger than me. Here's what I see that we need to do. Skip said we need to BE SMART about our nutrition. We need to monitor our blood levels and other functions (like liver, kidney, etc).

I think it's very tragic that bb'ers, young and old, on gear or off gear, are dying from heart disease. But - this is NOT JUST HAPPENING to bodybuilders or those that use 'roids.

If you decide to take gear, you need to educate yourself on ALL facets, which includes nutrition, ancillaries, etc.

I've tried taking varied amounts - from low to high (at least in my perspective) amounts of gear. For me, taking high amounts was akin to taking too much vitamin B - which the excess B just goes out in your pee. I'm not saying that you pee out excess gear - but why pay (it's costly) for excessive gear when all it may be doing is increasing that potential for harmful sides?

Skip · May 10, 2005

LATS said:
if you are going to spend $1000.00 on gear, for the love of god , spend some on multi vitamins, minerals, fish oils, niacin ect.. ..

There are no truer words. VERY good point.

Skip

LATS · May 11, 2005

excel.. that is a good post.. i feel the same way.. it is not just us that is affected.. we just hear about all our bro's because of networking.. heart disease is a ugly thing.. can gear speed the process?.. yes.. if you do not get regular check ups, do not follow nutritional soundness, use the proper anti e's and other helpful supplements for overall good health ect then we kinda ask for it in the long run.. coopie, i also agree and the reason why we are scared to go to the doctors is for fear of what they might think ect.. i have spoken to competitors in other countries where gear is legal and over the counter and they have stated that they get regular checkups much more frequently than we do.. why? well one reason is that the doctors, because of the legality of the drugs, have no issues with the gear users.. makes it much easier to go to the doctor whne you know he is there to help..