Hepatic Adenomas - Ruptured And Almost Bled To Death.

[Altair]

They haven't talked about excising the diseased portions of the liver if it doesn't clear up on its own? The liver is a huge organ and can regenerate fairly fast. Why they can take 1/2 your liver and transplant it into someone else and the donar lives a normal life afterward. I know a guy that gave half of his to his mother.

They’re too many scattered throughout the liver to realistically resect all of them. The one that ruptured that got embolized, continues to regress in size. It was 9cm when it ruptured. 3 months ago it was 5cm and last weeks mri showed it regressed to 4cm.

The other two which they biopsied look the same in size. These are the ones confirmed for beta catenin mutation.

Other few smaller ones seem to have regressed by like a cm.

The plan is to resect the 2-3 big ones including the one that bled and ablate the ones smaller in size with radio frequency ablation.
We are kind of delaying the surgery to further our chance for a laparoscopic procedure instead of open surgery. Since I had open surgery in September and bled throughout my abdomen that makes laparoscopic procedure less likely due to scar tissue and adhesions.

 

[maldorf]

They’re too many scattered throughout the liver to realistically resect all of them. The one that ruptured that got embolized, continues to regress in size. It was 9cm when it ruptured. 3 months ago it was 5cm and last weeks mri showed it regressed to 4cm.

The other two which they biopsied look the same in size. These are the ones confirmed for beta catenin mutation.

Other few smaller ones seem to have regressed by like a cm.

The plan is to resect the 2-3 big ones including the one that bled and ablate the ones smaller in size with radio frequency ablation.
We are kind of delaying the surgery to further our chance for a laparoscopic procedure instead of open surgery. Since I had open surgery in September and bled throughout my abdomen that makes laparoscopic procedure less likely due to scar tissue and adhesions.

Sounds like a good plan to me. I hope most of them continue to shrink down. Now that you have gotten off everything, hopefully you will heal up. I sure hope you can have laparoscopic surgery.

We have a member on here that just had a kidney transplant and is doing ok I think. Being a bodybuilder, at least most of your body is fairly fit. They think it helped me survive my heart attack. Being young like you are really helps too. You got a second chance in life. Feels weird doesn't it?

 

[gotgame]

Thank you for taking the time to post, I’m very luck to be alive. What can I say,
at times as bodybuilders especially ones with clinical severe ocd like me, we can be in denial about things.
That life is over for me.

I wanted to ask you, in your experience with these adenomas do you see them usually regress in size or with time disappearing? Especially the ones with beta catenin mutation. Is surgery or transplant down the road my only option? I’m doing best best to avoid more major surgery but maybe again I’m in denial.

So this is where it gets murky.... i am NOT answering this as a physician... i will only give my personal opinion and experience of what i have seen done and what i would personally do.

I have known a few bbers to have nearly all there adenomas regress over time without surgery/ IR. Two of them were guys from my old gym who i advised and monitored there imaging.

In general, with respect to AAS, but estrogen AND direct androgen stimulation can cause growth. Soooo... if one was to say significant reduce both of those then maybe it would go down.

I would NOT suggest going like leuroplide or that route... i just wouldnt.. but id personal leave my test levels crashed and take letro and dutasteride. The letro will raise ur test levels due to feedback but im hoping that its more estrogen dominant. The dutasteride because ive seen a few papers on adenomas and DHT binding so id get that down too.


Id bottom out my estrogen levels for a bit and get imaging done to folllow it. My buddy in NYC had a few adenomas up to 5cm. he was off all gear for like a year and they didnt regress but they also didnt get bigger. He started taking letro and dutasteride at a decent dose and i scanned him with ultrasound every few weeks.

After i think i was about 3 months they were almost half the size... after a year they were about 1cm and his other drs were ok just watching them.

He is now on legit TRT, takes letro to keep his estogen levesl on lower end of normal and takes dutasteride. His last follow up did not show any change.

This is not standard, theres a risk of them bleeding as you know, and not really and approved way of going about it. Just mentioning it for discussion.

 

[Altair]

So this is where it gets murky.... i am NOT answering this as a physician... i will only give my personal opinion and experience of what i have seen done and what i would personally do.

I have known a few bbers to have nearly all there adenomas regress over time without surgery/ IR. Two of them were guys from my old gym who i advised and monitored there imaging.

In general, with respect to AAS, but estrogen AND direct androgen stimulation can cause growth. Soooo... if one was to say significant reduce both of those then maybe it would go down.

I would NOT suggest going like leuroplide or that route... i just wouldnt.. but id personal leave my test levels crashed and take letro and dutasteride. The letro will raise ur test levels due to feedback but im hoping that its more estrogen dominant. The dutasteride because ive seen a few papers on adenomas and DHT binding so id get that down too.


Id bottom out my estrogen levels for a bit and get imaging done to folllow it. My buddy in NYC had a few adenomas up to 5cm. he was off all gear for like a year and they didnt regress but they also didnt get bigger. He started taking letro and dutasteride at a decent dose and i scanned him with ultrasound every few weeks.

After i think i was about 3 months they were almost half the size... after a year they were about 1cm and his other drs were ok just watching them.

He is now on legit TRT, takes letro to keep his estogen levesl on lower end of normal and takes dutasteride. His last follow up did not show any change.

This is not standard, theres a risk of them bleeding as you know, and not really and approved way of going about it. Just mentioning it for discussion.

That’s some really good feedback. I personally asked them if the biopsy could tell whether the adenomas were AR/ER positive or both and one of the doctor said it wouldn’t matter any way but he would ask pathology if they have the stains for that but he never got back to me.

My endocrinologist who’s fully in the picture and my liver doctor who’s the head of the liver tumor program at my hospital both agreed on starting me on trt (my levels came back at 62) 200mg every two weeks with 1mg arimidex everyday (I think they write that much for insurance purposes) although thinking of my current situation maybe I will benefit crushing my estrogen as you mentioned above.

 

[gotgame]

That’s some really good feedback. I personally asked them if the biopsy could tell whether the adenomas were AR/ER positive or both and one of the doctor said it wouldn’t matter any way but he would ask pathology if they have the stains for that but he never got back to me.

My endocrinologist who’s fully in the picture and my liver doctor who’s the head of the liver tumor program at my hospital both agreed on starting me on trt (my levels came back at 62) 200mg every two weeks with 1mg arimidex everyday (I think they write that much for insurance purposes) although thinking of my current situation maybe I will benefit crushing my estrogen as you mentioned above.

Keep in mind it is NOT the approved way of going about this and its not something i officially recommend just something to bother pathology about. If you do choose to go this route id make sure you are able to get follow up imaging in a few months to see if its responding.

My sample size is only a few bodybuilders, while they had success its certainly not a legit consensus.

 

[gotgame]

Also, its fairly well accepted that some adenomas will regress after a female stops certain higher dose types of birth control pills or after pregnancy. If one removes the stimulus that resulted in the adenoma it could shrink.

The number i keep in mind is 5cm. over 5cm the risk for HCC gets a bit higher and ofcourse the larger it is the higher risk for bleeding.

there isnt much decent literature on AAS cessesation and adenomas. I recall reading a few papers on pubmed discusing them getting smaller after a bber stopped but i dont recall reading anything on treating them with an AI.

There are risks with taking estogen level low, bone density etc. But id personally consider the pros outweighing the cons.

 

[Serotonin]

Probably in the top 10 scariest experiences I've read on here

Glad you pulled through brother, stay healthy!

 

[gungalunga]

Probably in the top 10 scariest experiences I've read on here

Glad you pulled through brother, stay healthy!

Oh......there has been worse. One guy had to have a tennis ball sized tumor removed from his liver via surgery and they had to cut him open with a Y shaped incision from his belly to his sternum. The crazy part was that the guy was like 5'11" and 210 lbs, yet he was using 3-5 grams a week. Sometimes he would go as high as 2 grams of tren a week if I remember correctly. Just a reminder to all you youngsters.....use the lowest effective dosages to reach your goals. If your goal is to become a pro level bodybuilder....it might have serious negative effects on your health.

 

[Reload]

This thread and a few others over the past 6 months not to mention multiple shoulder surgeries have made me reflect on how short life truly is. It's low dose TRT for me from here on out. No other compounds! Test only. I'm 50 y/o, who am I kidding?! I should be focused on longevity, health vs. trying to carry around an extra 25-30lbs of fake muscle that genetically I shouldn't have in the first place. It drives my need for BP meds, a nerosis around eating every 3 hours and all the damn food prep. Yep, done!

 

[gotgame]

This thread and a few others over the past 6 months not to mention multiple shoulder surgeries have made me reflect on how short life truly is. It's low dose TRT for me from here on out. No other compounds! Test only. I'm 50 y/o, who am I kidding?! I should be focused on longevity, health vs. trying to carry around an extra 25-30lbs of fake muscle that genetically I shouldn't have in the first place. It drives my need for BP meds, a nerosis around eating every 3 hours and all the damn food prep. Yep, done!

I firmly believe most guys can get very VERY good results using low dose test, few ius of GH, AI. That coupled with a decent diet ( gotta enjoy life too), being healthy, not too many injuries and enjoy life.

I mean if you could have gotten 17-18 inch arms naturally..maybe low dose test and some GH could get you up to 19's and keep bodyfat low. Walking around at low BF with 19 inch arms, small waist and good over all muscle development. Thats good for most guys. Are you gonna win the olympia..no not in 2019 but good enough for many.

 

[Altair]

Also, its fairly well accepted that some adenomas will regress after a female stops certain higher dose types of birth control pills or after pregnancy. If one removes the stimulus that resulted in the adenoma it could shrink.

The number i keep in mind is 5cm. over 5cm the risk for HCC gets a bit higher and ofcourse the larger it is the higher risk for bleeding.

there isnt much decent literature on AAS cessesation and adenomas. I recall reading a few papers on pubmed discusing them getting smaller after a bber stopped but i dont recall reading anything on treating them with an AI.

There are risks with taking estogen level low, bone density etc. But id personally consider the pros outweighing the cons.

Gotgame, really thank you. You have provided some great feedback, most doctors in my experience are not very well versed on the exact correlation between AAS and these adenomas, what exactly causes them etc. I’m lucky to have a great doctor by my side.

All my adenomas at the moment are less than 5cm. The one that ruptured was 9cm and currently has shrunk to 4cm. My biggest one at the moment measures 4.4cm, the rest are much smaller like 1-2cm.

Also wanted to ask you, do you think supplements like tudca, nac or even injectable glutathione could benefit in any way? Milk thistle I’m trying to avoid cause of the estrogenic effects it may have. I’m thinking they probably won’t do much since these adenomas are more hormonal but can’t hurt. What do you think?

 

[gungalunga]

This is the guy I was trying to think of. The tumor was actually the size of a grapefruit.

https://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/professional-muscle-forum/101337-stop-taking-all-crap.html

 

[gotgame]

Gotgame, really thank you. You have provided some great feedback, most doctors in my experience are not very well versed on the exact correlation between AAS and these adenomas, what exactly causes them etc. I’m lucky to have a great doctor by my side.

All my adenomas at the moment are less than 5cm. The one that ruptured was 9cm and currently has shrunk to 4cm. My biggest one at the moment measures 4.4cm, the rest are much smaller like 1-2cm.

Also wanted to ask you, do you think supplements like tudca, nac or even injectable glutathione could benefit in any way? Milk thistle I’m trying to avoid cause of the estrogenic effects it may have. I’m thinking they probably won’t do much since these adenomas are more hormonal but can’t hurt. What do you think?

I dont think NAC would hurt in anyway. Will it help..i dont know. As for the others i do not know.

Glad they shrunk, as you removed the stimulus and crashed a bit that probably helped.

 

[Serotonin]

This is the guy I was trying to think of. The tumor was actually the size of a grapefruit.

https://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/professional-muscle-forum/101337-stop-taking-all-crap.html

Oh my god....

 

[blkhrt_jordan]

Would anything that stimulates liver autophagy and detox help? Things like fasting, polyphenols, sulforaphane, when you are healhier obviously.

 

[thethinker48]

Would anything that stimulates liver autophagy and detox help? Things like fasting, polyphenols, sulforaphane, when you are healhier obviously.

I think under the conditions adenomas grow (especially in our community); fasting and the use autophagy and mitophagy play is like trying to combat a forest fire with a water gun.

I know what you mean as a means of aiding liver health (drugs, supplements, dietary tips...). But staying away from high androgen use, and maintaining proper estrogen + progest levels is probably going to keep you on the safer side when it comes to liver health (not to mention avoiding orals, which imo should be used very sparingly in guys who don't compete).

 

[Nacho787]

Wow bro sorry to hear all that, being sick sucks. Pray you get better

 

[Smack]

I was never big on orals, I only used them once anadrol and anavar for 5-6 months and that was it.

My use was basically high test 1.5-2g and nandrolone or tren 700mg-1g, sometimes eq in there too.

Mind you guys this happened to me at 24, I started AAS at 18. It didn’t take exactly a lifetime for this to happen.

So for 6 years straight you were on 2.2g-3g?

Edit: No issues other than this prior?

 

[maldorf]

This is the guy I was trying to think of. The tumor was actually the size of a grapefruit.

https://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/professional-muscle-forum/101337-stop-taking-all-crap.html

Anyone know if he is ok now? I looked and see that his last post was in January of 2017. I hope his health is ok now.

 

[Geeto]

I'm glad you're alive, this is like the 5th terrible medical thing I've read today gonna go have a panic attack for a little while.

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