HGH Tolerance Study Why EOD May be Better

[Johnny Smiles]

wow

While many of the concerns regarding the study are legit, I think the main point here is the fact that (this study aside) there are numerous long term studies (6mo, 1, 3-5yrs, etc) which do reflect that prolonged use of rHGH not only seems to exhibit several unwanted side effects (these vary), but worse, desired results eventually dwindle, i.e. beginning at approx 6 months or so via ED use. Even still, most of these findings are based on practical and or appropriate usage, not exaggerated BB'er type dosing.

No one wants the beneficial results to cease and of course, no one wants unhealthy side effects either. There are however solutions which do appear to yield sustainable desired results. ED dosing readily ushers in the inevitable, whereas EOD has the right idea, it still isn't a perfect solution.

Those who take breaks between runs, are at least for the most part following a logical pattern which should assist in sensitivity, that being a major issue in dwindling results. Maybe this is why those who take time off report favorable, and even sustainable results? I too can personally testify that this does work for me.

The following is what I believe to be the best SC protocol I've seen to date. It has the ability to maintain sensitivity (crucial for sustained results), as well as more closely mimic bodily secretion (another requirement for *better* response), though grants the body a break as well as confusion during schedule. The following is an example only. If I.V. were to be incorporated, this would vary.


7 on 7 off. This is essentially equal to an EOD protocol, but includes a well rounded down time that EOD does not offer.

Mix up your dosages.
An example:
1st day: 2IU & 1IU (3IU total)
2nd day: 4IU, 2IU & 1IU (6IU total)
3rd day: 3IU (3IU total)
4th day: 4IU, 2IU & 1IU (7IU total)
5th day: 2IU & 2IU (4IU total)
6th day: 3IU, 3IU & 1IU (7IU total)
7th day: 4IU. (4IU total)
Next week OFF.

Again, this is an example only! Depending on desired results, i.e. mass or LM gain, the above should be altered. More mass = larger doses. LM = smaller doses.

Dosing could also be worked to once a day, but not *as* beneficial as multiple times.

Larger doses should always be on a WO day. Attempt to take the largest that day within 10 minutes of WO, Pre or Post.

Note, one days dosage is followed by a larger dosage protocol the following day. This protocol will assist with confusion and thwart adaptation and capable of being continued indefinitely = no worry of desensitization.

i would need a computer program and speadsheet to keep up with a dosing schedule like that.
a bit over complicated IMO.
-JS

 

[J_Diggs]

While many of the concerns regarding the study are legit, I think the main point here is the fact that (this study aside) there are numerous long term studies (6mo, 1, 3-5yrs, etc) which do reflect that prolonged use of rHGH not only seems to exhibit several unwanted side effects (these vary), but worse, desired results eventually dwindle, i.e. beginning at approx 6 months or so via ED use. Even still, most of these findings are based on practical and or appropriate usage, not exaggerated BB'er type dosing.

No one wants the beneficial results to cease and of course, no one wants unhealthy side effects either. There are however solutions which do appear to yield sustainable desired results. ED dosing readily ushers in the inevitable, whereas EOD has the right idea, it still isn't a perfect solution.

Those who take breaks between runs, are at least for the most part following a logical pattern which should assist in sensitivity, that being a major issue in dwindling results. Maybe this is why those who take time off report favorable, and even sustainable results? I too can personally testify that this does work for me.

The following is what I believe to be the best SC protocol I've seen to date. It has the ability to maintain sensitivity (crucial for sustained results), as well as more closely mimic bodily secretion (another requirement for *better* response), though grants the body a break as well as confusion during schedule. The following is an example only. If I.V. were to be incorporated, this would vary.


7 on 7 off. This is essentially equal to an EOD protocol, but includes a well rounded down time that EOD does not offer.

Mix up your dosages.
An example:
1st day: 2IU & 1IU (3IU total)
2nd day: 4IU, 2IU & 1IU (6IU total)
3rd day: 3IU (3IU total)
4th day: 4IU, 2IU & 1IU (7IU total)
5th day: 2IU & 2IU (4IU total)
6th day: 3IU, 3IU & 1IU (7IU total)
7th day: 4IU. (4IU total)
Next week OFF.

Again, this is an example only! Depending on desired results, i.e. mass or LM gain, the above should be altered. More mass = larger doses. LM = smaller doses.

Dosing could also be worked to once a day, but not *as* beneficial as multiple times.

Larger doses should always be on a WO day. Attempt to take the largest that day within 10 minutes of WO, Pre or Post.

Note, one days dosage is followed by a larger dosage protocol the following day. This protocol will assist with confusion and thwart adaptation and capable of being continued indefinitely = no worry of desensitization.

Very nice. So, I think the 7 on/7 off is more practical than the 5 on/5 off that we talked about. This way I always ensure that I'm at least dosing on the days I work out and managing is less of a nightmare. I like this a lot.

So, let's just say your example would result in a good combination of fat loss and lean muscle gain, but let's say you toned down the iu on a few days to help facilitate that and it looks something like this:

1st day: 2IU (2IU total)
2nd day: 3IU, 2IU (5IU total)
3rd day: 3IU (3IU total)
4th day: 4IU, 2IU & 1IU (6IU total)
5th day: 2IU & 2IU (4IU total)
6th day: 3IU, 3IU (6IU total)
7th day: 3IU. (3IU total)
Next week OFF.

Let's also assume that theoretically the above gives an equal distribution to fatloss/LBM. Assuming the above is your new baseline, how would you modify it to facilitate a more heavily weighted distrubtion to muscle mass gains? Also, can you attempt to do both regimes together? So if the above is X and off week is Y and mass protocol is Z then do X,Y,Z,Y,X,Y,Z,Y....??? Thanks for all your insight!

 

[dragonfire101]

How is this study supporting EOD dosing for bodybuilding purposes?

And did everyone who has quoted this study for years miss this?



Now I may be reading this wrong, but doesn't it say the ED group had more growth during therapy, for 1 and 2 years?? The growth decelerated more after therapy though.

Also this study focused on bone as target organ. It didn't measure fat loss or muscle gain (what bodybuilders want of course).

Now, many seem to say EOD gives better results and that's fine, but it's another thing to say it has been proven that EOD dosing is better for bodybuilding purposes.
And don't forget, regarding the purported mechanism behind the growth deceleration:



JMHO.

Who quoted it for years... Phil? Ya he has said that for years. Nobody reallly posted studies and I seen alot of new guys asking about GH dosing so I figure I bring it up again for them to consider or think about. SINCE THEY HAVE NOT BEEN HERE FOR YEARS THEY PROBABLY DID MISS IT... You been talking in exacts lately in your post and seem somewhat irratable as lately towards some posters.

I gave the study as just an example looking at the study from a tolerance perspective not how much growth its generating between bone, muscle fat loss. Just in general a study that HGH use you MAY develop a tolerance after a period of time. Go back and read my fist post EOD MAY BE BETTER. KNOWN ONE SAID IT WAS PROVEN...

A few have speculated on this board that they feel EOD is better such as Phil. I posted the study to reflect that there may be some info out there as to why to support their theories or experiences that it worked better ...

 

[dragonfire101]

From the abstract gets itno little more detail.

Prevention of Growth Deceleration after Withdrawal of Growth Hormone Therapy in Idiopathic Short Stature

Discussion

As the collaborative Israeli study of efficacy and safety of hGH therapy was analyzed (10), we realized that in 65 boys with GH deficiency or idiopathic short stature, aged 3–15 yr, the child’s age was the most significant determinant of therapy outcome; over the course of 3 yr boys in the prepubertal age group gained an average 8 cm of predicted adult height, pubertal boys over the age of 12 yr showed a negative correlation of their predicted height gain against age, and boys over the age of 14 yr showed a loss of predicted height during hGH therapy (10). As others did, we observed a maximal response during the initial 2–3 yr of therapy. The consequence of that study was the hypothesis that in idiopathic short stature, a 2- to 3-yr period of therapy might be beneficial and that the window of opportunity ends before the onset of puberty. In the follow-up study we showed the short-term efficacy of 2–3 yr of hGH therapy in prepubertal children, but identified the well known phenomenon of growth deceleration after treatment withdrawal (4). To understand the mechanism of GH dependence and its withdrawal syndrome, we then studied the GH – IGF-I axis and observed it to be normal during the withdrawal syndrome (4). Assuming that the withdrawal syndrome is related to tolerance that might have developed toward hGH or IGF-I, we tried to prevent it by alternate day treatment. Moreover, hGH doses used in therapy often stimulate IGF-I to supraphysiological serum levels, suggesting that target tissues IGF-I may also be higher than normal. The mechanism seems, therefore, to rest with hGH and IGF-I action at their target tissues. We now show that alternate day therapy with hGH in children with an intact GH-IGF-I axis prevents the withdrawal syndrome.

The design of the study paid special attention to the young age group and conclusion of therapy before the onset of puberty, as well as to matching the two treatment groups by height and growth velocity SD scores. In our previous study we did not observe a different response of patients with intrauterine growth retardation or familial short stature compared with children with normal birth weight and parental height, and the current study followed the same design; inclusion criteria did not include either birth weight or parents’ height. Due to the young age of many of the patients, we could not calculate pretreatment height prediction, and therefore, the final predictions made 4 yr later give unreliable estimates of the true final height gain.

Dependence, often associated with drug abuse, is a biological phenomenon with both psychological and physiological components. During the period of addictive substance use, the body adjusts to a new level of pathologic homeostasis or allostasis. When the drug is abruptly discontinued, this equilibrium is disturbed, and the organism reacts with a constellation of manifestations collectively called a withdrawal syndrome. Dependence is preceded by a phase of tolerance, which signifies a progressively decreased response to the effect of a drug, necessitating ever larger doses to achieve the same effect. Tolerance is largely due to compensatory responses of the organism that mitigate the drug’s pharmacological action. It may result from functional adjustment due to compensatory changes in an effector enzyme or a signal transduction system or from metabolic adjustment due to increased disposition of the drug after chronic use. Endocrine tolerance and withdrawal syndromes have been reported for several hormones (9). The mechanism may lie partly at the inhibitory effect of the drug on endogenous hormone secretion. Yet, GH secretion is normal in children during the withdrawal syndrome (4, 7). It must have to do, then, with the effect of hGH at the target organ, and in the case of childhood growth, the target organ is the growth plate. The molecular and cellular bases of endocrine tolerance and withdrawal syndromes are only partly understood (9). Relatively short-term dependence and addiction result from adaptations in specific target cells caused by prolonged exposure to a supraphysiological level of a hormone or a drug of abuse. The best established mechanism of adaptation is up-regulation of second messenger pathways. Acute opiate exposure inhibits a neuronal cAMP pathway, whereas chronic exposure leads to a compensatory cAMP up-regulation (11). Adaptation in protein kinase A, receptor-G protein coupling, and other components of this signal transduction pathway have also been shown to be involved in the case of opiates and cocaine (12). Long-lasting molecular and cellular adaptations may involve other mechanisms. By analogy with other models of long-term memory and long-term drug addiction and abstinence, such long-lived adaptations to hormones may involve relatively stable changes in molecular switches and transcription factors, such as those implicated in persistent drug-induced long-term neural and behavioral plasticity that occur through alterations in the expression of other genes (9, 11).

The prevention of GH tolerance and withdrawal syndrome by alternate day therapy may implicate the pulsatile nature of GH secretion and serum profile. The latter is preserved in the alternate day regimen and is abrogated by daily treatment. We have previously shown the essential role of GH pulsatility for proper function of the GH receptor. Continuous administration of GH to rats, unlike its pulsatile delivery, up-regulates GH receptors (13, 14) and GH-binding protein (15). In the human, too, GH administration has an up-regulatory effect on GH-binding protein (16), which reflects to a great extent the expression of the GH receptor (17). Moreover, it was shown in a mouse model that hormone pulsation is essential for the signal transduction of GH (18). GH pulses induce synchronized pulses of activated STAT5b, its nuclear translocation, and expression of sex-specific liver CYP genes (19, 20). Long-term interference with GH pulsatility may induce long-lived adaptations to GH that may involve relatively stable changes in molecular switches.GH tolerance is not ubiquitous, as IGF-I and IGF-binding protein-3 levels did not decrease after withdrawal below their pretreatment levels in this (data not shown) and a previous study (4). A possible site of long-term plasticity is the chondroprogenital (reserve) layer of the growth plate. GH promotes differentiation of chondroprogenitor cells to become proliferating chondroblasts in isolated epiphyseal cartilage cells (21) and in epiphyseal organ culture (22) as reviewed recently (23). Chronic exposure to hGH might exhaust these cells, whereas alternate day therapy might enable an intermittent recovery for these cells. The results of the present study suggest that after daily hGH therapy for 24 months, such stable changes may last for over a year.




1. Ackland FM, Jones J, Buckler JM 1990 Growth hormone treatment in non-growth hormone-deficient children: effects of stopping treatment. Acta Paediatr Scand 366(Suppl):32–37
2. Chanoine JP, Vanderschueren-Lodeweyckx M, Maes M, Thiry-Counson G, Craen M, Van Vliet G 1991 Growth hormone (GH) treatment in short normal children: absence of influence of time of injection and resistance to GH autofeedback. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 73:1269–1275[Abstract/Free Full Text]
3. de Zegher F, Albertsson-Wikland K, Wollmann HA, Chatelain P, Chaussain JL, Lofstrom A, Jonsson B, Rosenfeld RG 2000 Growth hormone treatment of short children born small for gestational age: growth responses with continuous and discontinuous regimens over 6 years. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 85:2816–2821[Abstract/Free Full Text]
4. Lampit M. Lorber A, Vilkas DL, Nave T, Hochberg Z 1998 Growth hormone (GH) dependence and GH withdrawal syndrome in GH treatment of short normal children: evidence from growth and cardiac output. Eur J Endocrinol 138:401–407[Abstract]
5. Rudman D, Patterson JH, Gibbas DL 1973 Responsiveness of growth hormone-deficient children to human growth hormone. Effect of replacement therapy for one year. J Clin Invest 52:1108–1112[Medline]
6. Tanner JM, Whitehouse RH, Hughes PC, Vince FP 1971 Effect of human growth hormone treatment for 1 to 7 years on growth of 100 children, with growth hormone deficiency, low birthweight, inherited smallness, Turner’s syndrome, and other complaints. Arch Dis Child 46:745–782[Abstract/Free Full Text]
7. Wu RH, St. Louis Y, DiMartino-Nardi J, Wesoly S, Sobel EH, Sherman B, Saenger P 1990 Preservation of physiological growth hormone (GH) secretion in idiopathic short stature after recombinant GH therapy. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 70:1612–1615[Abstract/Free Full Text]
8. Amatruda Jr TT, Hurst MM, D’Esopo ND 1965 Certain endocrine and metabolic facets of the steroid withdrawal syndrome. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 25:1207–1217[Abstract/Free Full Text]
9. Hochberg Z, Pacak K, Chrousos GP, Endocrine withdrawal syndromes. Endocr Rev, in press
10. Hochberg Z, Leiberman E, Landau H, Koren R, Zadik Z 1994 Age as a determinant of the impact of growth hormone therapy on predicted adult height. Clin Endocrinol (Oxf) 41:331–335[Medline]
11. Nestler EJ, Aghajanian GK 1997 Molecular and cellular basis of addiction. Science 278:58–63[Abstract/Free Full Text]
12. Koob GF, Le Moal M 1997 Drug abuse: hedonic homeostatic dysregulation. Science 278:52–58[Abstract/Free Full Text]
13. Bick T, Youdim MBH, Hochberg Z 1989 Adaptation of liver membrane somatogenic and lactogenic growth hormone (GH) binding to the spontaneous pulsation of GH secretion in the male rat. Endocrinology 125:1711–1717[Abstract/Free Full Text]
14. Hochberg Z, Bick T, Amit T, Barkey RJ, Youdim MBH 1990 Regulation of the GH-receptor turnover by growth hormone. Acta Paediatr Scand 367(Suppl):148–152
15. Bick T, Amit T, Barkey RJ, Hertz P, Youdim MBH, Hochberg Z 1990 The interrelationship of growth hormone (GH), liver membrane GH receptor, serum GH-binding protein activity and insulin-like growth factor-I (IGF-I) in the male rat. Endocrinology 126:1914–1920[Abstract/Free Full Text]
16. Hochberg Z, Phillip M, Youdim MBH, Amit T 1993 Regulation of the growth hormone (GH) receptor and GH-binding protein by GH pulsatility. Metabolism 42:1617–1623[CrossRef][Medline]
17. Amit T, Youdim MBH, Hochberg Z 2000 Clinical Review: does serum growth hormone (GH) binding protein reflect human GH receptor function? J Clin Endocrinol Metab 85:927–932[Abstract/Free Full Text]
18. Gebert CA, Park SH, Waxman DJ 1999 Termination of growth hormone pulse-induced STAT5b signaling. Mol Endocrinol 38–56
19. Gebert CA, Park SH, Waxman DJ 1997 Regulation of signal transducer and activator of transcription (STAT) 5b activation by the temporal pattern of growth hormone stimulation. Mol Endocrinol 11:400–414[Abstract/Free Full Text]
20. Waxman DJ, Zhao S, Choi HK 1996 Interaction of a novel sex-dependent, growth hormone-regulated liver nuclear factor with CYP2C12 promoter. J Biol Chem 271:29978–29987[Abstract/Free Full Text]
21. Ohlsson C, Nilsson A, Isaksson O, Lindahl A 1992 Growth hormone induces multiplication of the slowly cycling germinal cells of the rat tibial growth plate. Proc Natl Acad Sci USA 89:9826–9831[Abstract/Free Full Text]
22. Maor G, Hochberg Z, v d Mark K, Heinegard D, Silbermann M 1989 Human growth hormone enhances chondrogenesis and osteogenesis in a tissue culture system of chondroprogenitor cells. Endocrinology 125:1239–1245[Abstract/Free Full Text]
23. Hochberg Z, Clinical physiology and pathology of the growth plate. Bailliere Clin Endocrinol Metab, in press

 

[Newman]

I gotta wonder whether alternating GH days with GHRH/GHRP days would be a good option???

Would that be better than 1 day on & 1 day off, or would it cause some other problem to be mixing exogenous GH with artificially stimulated endogenous GH?

Any educated guesses???

 

[123cctv]

i would need a computer program and speadsheet to keep up with a dosing schedule like that.
a bit over complicated IMO.
-JS

Ah well what I gave was an example only - not intended to be taken as an exact (though it certainly could, and I anticipated some might).

The main point to grasp is to dose more one day and less the following. Decide on how much these days will be prior to that particular week. Dosing days should have a varied mix of IU's, via multiple doses. Lastly keeping the largest dose of that day for WO.

Though if none of this could be done, one could still greatly benefit the "7 on and 7" off protocol much better than EOD will yield.

 

[123cctv]

Very nice. So, I think the 7 on/7 off is more practical than the 5 on/5 off that we talked about. This way I always ensure that I'm at least dosing on the days I work out and managing is less of a nightmare. I like this a lot.

Yeah sorry, when we talked I was still working on the protocol. However the previous protocol doesn't contain what you desired. The differences are that this protocol includes multiple injections as well as being a type of middle ground to most peoples wants. Your protocol was lighter, as it should be, so other than changing yours to a 7 on 7 off for simplicity, I'm still suggesting not go over 6IU's per (for your needs).

1st day: 2IU (2IU total)
2nd day: 3IU, 2IU (5IU total)
3rd day: 3IU (3IU total)
4th day: 4IU, 2IU & 1IU (6IU total)
5th day: 2IU & 2IU (4IU total)
6th day: 3IU, 3IU (6IU total)
7th day: 3IU. (3IU total)
Next week OFF.

Let's also assume that theoretically the above gives an equal distribution to fatloss/LBM. Assuming the above is your new baseline, how would you modify it to facilitate a more heavily weighted distrubtion to muscle mass gains?.

By dosing heavier per day. However this is not to say any one should push it past 10IU per day. In fact, if that's done, you'll eventually void out the practicalities of this design/protocol.

Think of it in terms similar to this. I'm stressing the term similar. Thus the following is a generalization only.

1-3IU = Fat loss, muscle toning
3-6IU = Fat loss, lean muscle gain
6-9IU = Mass muscle gain, bulking

Again, while this was not intended to be taken as exacts, there is however data which does support end results similar to the above.

Also, can you attempt to do both regimes together? So if the above is X and off week is Y and mass protocol is Z then do X,Y,Z,Y,X,Y,Z,Y....??? Thanks for all your insight!

While I certainly do love mixing it up, I wouldn't mix a heavy with a light protocol within the same month. Pick a result (goal) you are out for. Then implement one that's right for you.

 

[123cctv]

I gotta wonder whether alternating GH days with GHRH/GHRP days would be a good option???

Would that be better than 1 day on & 1 day off, or would it cause some other problem to be mixing exogenous GH with artificially stimulated endogenous GH?

Any educated guesses???

It is my understanding that the EOD protocol is intended to prolong and extend sensitivity. It does to a certain extent. However by injecting the synthetic one day and then inducing your own GH via a secretagogue the next, in essence ruins this protocols intentions = prolonging sensitivity. In other words, synthetic or not, both GH's are going to utlize the same GH receptors thereby voiding the "EOD" benefit/effect.

What doesn't matter is if you switched up the synthetic w/secretagogues EOD. That would be fine.

 

[KillerStack]

Who quoted it for years... Phil? Ya he has said that for years. Nobody reallly posted studies and I seen alot of new guys asking about GH dosing so I figure I bring it up again for them to consider or think about. SINCE THEY HAVE NOT BEEN HERE FOR YEARS THEY PROBABLY DID MISS IT... You been talking in exacts lately in your post and seem somewhat irratable as lately towards some posters.

I gave the study as just an example looking at the study from a tolerance perspective not how much growth its generating between bone, muscle fat loss. Just in general a study that HGH use you MAY develop a tolerance after a period of time. Go back and read my fist post EOD MAY BE BETTER. KNOWN ONE SAID IT WAS PROVEN...

A few have speculated on this board that they feel EOD is better such as Phil. I posted the study to reflect that there may be some info out there as to why to support their theories or experiences that it worked better ...

I always come across wrong it seems.

Nothing against you for posting it. It has been posted by others many times over the years though (can't recall if Phil is one of them but didn't have him in mind in any case), as a sort of proof for the EOD protocol being superior.
I just wondered how the study results supports this schedule for bodybuilding purposes. If someone said they continued growing well years after stopping the growth then I could see it. This study seems to say that for 1-2 years ED is slightly better (again, muscle growth or lipolysis wasn't measured). Many have said that EOD is better and the improved results are almost immediately noticed.

It's kind of like the "after 8 weeks on gear myostatin upregulates" and the wild conclusions drawn, by some, on that study.

I wonder how many of the top pros do EOD schedules? Anyone know of someone who does? From what I've seen and heard most do ED and multiple times a day dosing.

Phil did of course, and maybe that's why he can maintain such mass and leanness after going clean.

 

[hawkmoon]

May I ask what your exact protocol is and also what purpose you use it for (fat burning, muscle gain, etc)? Thanks in advance.

2wks 5 iu MWF
6wks 10iu MWF

Goal is lean tissue gains - and it did just that.

 

[dragonfire101]

I always come across wrong it seems.

Nothing against you for posting it. It has been posted by others many times over the years though (can't recall if Phil is one of them but didn't have him in mind in any case), as a sort of proof for the EOD protocol being superior.

Not a problem ...It must be all those pineapples confusing us. LOL

I don't think Phil posted a study , but mentioned a blast protocol and that EOD was better. Think this was back in 2003 on the boards. I periodically justly post stuff up since I knwo people don't use the search button.

I just wondered how the study results supports this schedule for bodybuilding purposes. If someone said they continued growing well years after stopping the growth then I could see it. This study seems to say that for 1-2 years ED is slightly better (again, muscle growth or lipolysis wasn't measured). Many have said that EOD is better and the improved results are almost immediately noticed.

It's kind of like the "after 8 weeks on gear myostatin upregulates" and the wild conclusions drawn, by some, on that study.

I wonder how many of the top pros do EOD schedules? Anyone know of someone who does? From what I've seen and heard most do ED and multiple times a day dosing.

Phil did of course, and maybe that's why he can maintain such mass and leanness after going clean.

I would think pros who use GH every day increase their GH dosages like they would their gear once gains slowed, but how long can you do that for.

I'm thinking EOD maybe with multiple injections on those days used would be best to get the GH pulsatility. Say maybe 2iu used 4 times. then next day off and repeat.

 

[Johnny Smiles]

Not a problem ...It must be all those pineapples confusing us. LOL

I don't think Phil posted a study , but mentioned a blast protocol and that EOD was better. Think this was back in 2003 on the boards. I periodically justly post stuff up since I knwo people don't use the search button.




I would think pros who use GH every day increase their GH dosages like they would their gear once gains slowed, but how long can you do that for.

I'm thinking EOD maybe with multiple injections on those days used would be best to get the GH pulsatility. Say maybe 2iu used 4 times. then next day off and repeat.

i would like to read that whole thread.... bunch of search results to muck thru ugh.....
-JS

 

[mrgsxr]

This thread would be way better if everyone stated how much growth they have taken. I have taken about 50 kits in my lifetime. I have taken kits on and off AAS. The last few years I have taken GH with no AAS and done triathalons. I am 6'1 202 about 6 to 7 percent year round with a shirt on I just look lean with a shirt off I look about 225. Because I dont run AAS with my growth and my training consists of 3 to 4 hours a day with weights, running, and swimming I feel like I can give good reviews. I have varied my doses and played with them a lot. I have found my best results doing EOD but the same amount as ED. I want to run at the rate of 5iu a day or 35 a weeks. I divide the 35ius into six shots for the three days spaced in the AM and PM. Because I don't take any AAS anymore I am able to really "listen" to my body especially doing triathalon training I can eat whatever I want and stay lean lean I noticed doing growth ED I held water even running 20+ miles a week with my other training. I noticed when I switched to ED I had less water retention. In my experience dose doesn't effect water retention, timing does.


If anyone has any information on the effects of HGH on bone density, tissue repair, or ligament repair post it up please. Was hoping for sure it helped with these, hopefully helps with all the pounding on the pavement I do.

 

[UttekVemUnpat]

http://www.zdrowe-odzywianie.waw.pl/

dieta

 

[Thebigone]

I've noticed that at around 4iu per day split in 2 doses i continue to make gains and it seems like my body doesnt get "used" to the GH. Even using it at 4iu ED for months and months. But when I did a blast with it and was doing between 10-15iu's 3x per week. I noticed after about a month gains plateaued.

 

[hemipower]

Bump...

would like to bring this topic back up:

This year I did 2-4 iu daily plus peptides for about 8 months...with a week off here and there due to travel and did well...

Still have ghrp2 and cjc1295 that I do at random before bed. Trying to keep my dosing more random so that I don't have elevated gh all the time and continue to see results...

Now wanting to run gh for bulking - did 5iu first 2 wks, 4 days a wk.
Bumping to 6iu 4x a wk this wk, 2 on 2 off is the plan.
Current AAS at 250mg deca, 700mg test, 300mg eq. Diet is much more dense in calories...training is heavier and not as often (2 on and 1-2 off here as well).

How far should I take the gh? 8iu 3x a wk? 10iu 3x a wk? (that's about as far as my budget will allow)

Also, if I can do 30iu a wk max...is it better at 10iu 3 times a week? or 7ish 4 days a wk? Or in reference to the above post by 123cctv, would I be better off doing say 40-50iu one week and the next off??

Is there an upper limit to what should be taken at once? Currently doing 3iu when I wake up and eating an hour later...and 3 post workout with a shake or before bed if I cannot do pwo. If I go up to 8 or 10iu a day...should it still be split in 2 or would more be better (as in 2.5 units 4 times a day)

 

[Diesel Gear]

What I see from this board and others, is that guys are getting good results administering hgh using different protocols. That's why it is so important for everyone to take good logs of protocol and results...helps everyone. Some ways may be better, but there seem to be various successful routes....and be willing to post their results and protocols ...of course!

 

[hemipower]

Well, I am going to stick with the 3iu am and 3iu post workout another week...3-4 days a week.

Then bump up some but haven't decided if pushing to 10iu a day is worth it so may bump to 8iu 4 times a week and see how that goes for about 3 weeks...