I absolutely love stuff like this! Absolutely love it!

[JonnyO]

I guess I like to look like a bodybuilder and not the Michelin man.

Do you compete? And if so how much weight have you added onstage the last few years doing things YOUR way?

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

No I read your initial posts - where you're advocating this bing stuff. I really don't want to read anymore of it. If you changed your opinion, I suggest you change the first posts too, because thats what the majoirty will read (including many of the younger inexperienced guys who don't know better). You're a well known name you know, so you should take it a little easy with promoting stuff like that. It's bullshit and you know it. Migth be entertaining to see a guy with good genetics turn into a marshmellow man and then get in shape again....yes BIG transformation...woho, but not at all necessary. Give me a two-sided blind study where the only variable that change between the groups are that one are bing eating and the other are given a small surpluss of maintaince level....and lets see which group gains the most lbm...please.

Or in fact even better: Please explain to me how the human body can utilize more calories than it needs?

Yes a double blind study....oh yes...there are just a million and one studies going on right now involving "how to make the largest bodybuilder" because that holds incredible importance in the science arena. HOLD THE PRESSES PUBMED!
"Hey Stuart, lets cancel the leukemia research today and turn all our research dollars toward 'how to make a 21 inch arm!....contact the New England Journal of Medicine and let them know we are going to blow this conundrum wide open!!"

Article
Upper limit of fat-free mass in humans: A study on Japanese Sumo wrestlers
Masakatsu Kondo 1, Takashi Abe, Ph.D. 2 *, Shigeki Ikegawa 3, Yasuo Kawakami 4, Tetsuo Fukunaga 4
1Department of Exercise Physiology, Nihon University, Tokyo, Japan
2Department of Exercise and Sport Science, Tokyo Metropolitan University, Tokyo, Japan
3Department of Sport Science, Japan Women's University, Tokyo, Japan
4Department of Sports Sciences, The University of Tokyo, Tokyo, Japan


*Correspondence to Takashi Abe, Department of Exercise and Sport Science, Faculty of Science, Tokyp Metropolitan University, Minamiohsawa 1-1, Hachioji-shi, Tokyo 192-03, Japan

Abstract
If limitations exist in skeletal dimensions, fat-free mass (FFM) might have an upper limit. To explore the upper limit to FFM, 37 professional Japanese Sumo wrestlers, 14 highly trained bodybuilders, and 26 untrained men were investigated for body composition (fat mass and FFM) and cross-sectional areas (CSA) of limb muscles, by hydrodensitometry and ultrasound, respectively. Mean % fat of Sumo wrestlers, bodybuilders, and untrained subjects were, respectively, 26.1%, 10.9%, and 12.1%. Sumo wrestlers had a significantly greater FFM than bodybuilders, who had a greater FFM than the untrained men. Six of the wrestlers had more than 100 kg of FFM, including the largest one of 121.3 kg (stature: 186 cm, mass: 181 kg, %fat: 33.0%). The FFM/stature ratio of elite Sumo wrestlers averaged at 0.61 kg/cm, with the highest 0.66 kg/cm. It is suggested that a FFM/stature ratio of 0.7 kg/cm may be an upper limit in humans. © 1994 Wiley-Liss, Inc.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Received: 20 October 1993; Accepted: 23 March 1994
Digital Object Identifier (DOI)

10.1002/ajhb.1310060509 About DOI

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Now...I highly doubt Sumo's were doing hardcore weight training back in 1994....but there is no doubt they were eating with gluttony.....so put it together for yourself.

a) Eating large amounts of food and becoming large increases lean body mass and unfortunately bodyfat even when conventional weight training isnt being done

b) Training with weights obviously increases lean body mass

c) Sooooooooooo.......What keeps bodyfat at bay?

Think this equation out....its right there in front of you and its not that hard.

Think of the above equation next time you want to be lead into believing that you can get just as large eating a slight bit above BMR.

You trick your body into getting larger (thru eating)

You give it a definitive reason to get muscularly larger (weight lifting), which in the equation = (supply and demand) create the demand (progressive training) and fill the supply (food)

And you cure excess (adipose tissue gain) thru supplements diet and cardio.

ASE : Vol. 112 (2004) , No. 2 pp.179-185

IM sorry but Sumo's eat a tremendous amount of food and like it or not under that fat they have tremendous muscle mass....and in some cases the only variable is "FOOD"

Here is something very simple. If you are 200 today and keep eating like someone who is 205....take it to the bank you wont be weighing 250 any time soon. Pretty simple isnt it? Then how come you have a hard time figuring it out?


This is where again I think you will lose the concept of everything and tell everyone I advocate becoming a Sumo wrestler.

Do you see multiple threads where Bboy says "Food is your anabolic"....do you know why he says that? Because food is your anabolic.

Question: Have you put 40 pounds of muscle mass on you in the last 2 years? Some of the very guys you are blasting on this thread have. Yea so its not your cup of tea. So what? Some people want to look like club guy year round and yet others dont like to wait a decade to be able to stand next to nationally ranked bodybuilders like the couple of guys in this thread decided to do....they decided to not take the trolley and take the bullet train instead....along with that bullet train comes some people out of the woodwork like yourself who wants to push their personal beliefs that you should look like "slinky t-shirt guy" year round....so be it....they dont seem to care much what you think. Did you get your qualification for the Nationals or USA yet like they have?

Im going to say this again because this guy keeps on missing it. To everyoneick the journey you personally want to take...that is within the boundaries of health and limit on substances that coresponds to your own happiness and welfare. There are many ways to get there. The slow way, the fast way, the "abuse myself to the nines with anabolics/GH way (also known as the Craig Titus route), and the "food is my anabolic way"....and varying degrees of those ways.....pick your poison. (I will say this though "slinky club guy way at 5'11" 205 usually doesnt result in 256 shredded onstage at the Nationals picking up your trophy for your win at the superheavyweight class")...it is what it is.

 

[dr intensity]

I guess I like to look like a bodybuilder and not the Michelin man.

hey man,
take it easy , its all good...anyone who wants to be a mass monster has to eat a lot of food....i dont think markus ruhl became a 330 lbs mass monster eating 3200cal or 400 calories above the mentainence.
Almost everyone is able to understand Dante`s point, why is it so difficult for you to understand...

if you believe that one can gain 40 pounds/year of muscle eating minimal amount of food... then its ok..go ahead keep doing it, and update us if you get successful...

 

[animalsd]

I guess I like to look like a bodybuilder and not the Michelin man.

I dont see how he doesn't look like a bodybuilder

 

[massmonster32]

I miss the food on the army bases on deployment
We stopped at Camp Arifjan and Camp Beuhring (sp?) and the pure quantity of food available was amazing, and not bad either! haha, you just made me miss the military a little bit.

I hear that they feed you as if it going to be your last meal. Always plentyful and pretty good. Right now the food is there but its just not very good or edible where I am at so I am eating alot of eggs now days. You could always come back. TTYL MM

 

[mule]

nice discussion, you know the funny thing though is this ,serge nubret is mentioned here and he ate more everyday than anyone. so if you want to talk about somone pushing the food envelope it is him
more people could do what serge did believe me, but people are not willing to go to the lengths he did with their training and eating. vic richards had a similar method of unreal amounts of volume and crazy , crazy amounts of food. both men never had jobs outside of bodybuilding and made training and eating all they did from a very early age. what they did works but is not practical for most people.

 

[dr intensity]

nice discussion, you know the funny thing though is this ,serge nubret is mentioned here and he ate more everyday than anyone. so if you want to talk about somone pushing the food envelope it is him
more people could do what serge did believe me, but people are not willing to go to the lengths he did with their training and eating. vic richards had a similar method of unreal amounts of volume and crazy , crazy amounts of food. both men never had jobs outside of bodybuilding and made training and eating all they did from a very early age. what they did works but is not practical for most people.

long back i read victor richard`s interview by trevor smith( not sure if it was trevor)...where he mentioned he consumed around 30,000 cal/day... to which trevor smith responded by saying its like a gorilla or a lion would eat that much, how can a human eat that much...

ok i found out this

TS: Precisely my thoughts. Whenever I work with someone�?�whether a Pro or an Amateur the first thing I tell them is I have no secrets or magic bullets. Just common sense and balls to the wall effort. That is what makes the difference. K.I.S.S.

This brings me to my next question. Years back you claimed that you ate a daily diet of around 30,000 kcals. Now that is fucking absurd and is more than a fucking gorilla or a lion would eat.

VR: I agree�?�it is totally absurd and I never said that. Well I did, but it was taken out of context, like most of the information in the magazines. I was asked what the most amount of calories I ate in a day was and I told the person conducting the interview that it was probably 30,000 but that was simply because I was eating Nigerian foods which are heavily loaded with lots and lots of fats.

I never said I ate 30,000 kcals on a regular basis and certainly not from Rice, Chicken and vegetables. You have to understand I basically did everything that I wasn�??t supposed to in terms of playing the political angle in bodybuilding. I marched to my own beat and still had lots of fans and still made a good living and this pisses off the powers that be.

So ANY opportunity to make me look like a fool and discredit me they will. But I will not be made to look like a fool. I am college educated and have a degree in psychology. Most of my family members are doctors and engineers, so there is no shortage of intelligence in my genes.

 

[mule]

long back i read victor richard`s interview by trevor smith( not sure if it was trevor)...where he mentioned he consumed around 30,000 cal/day... to which trevor smith responded by saying its like a gorilla or a lion would eat that much, how can a human eat that much...

ok i found out this

TS: Precisely my thoughts. Whenever I work with someone�?�whether a Pro or an Amateur the first thing I tell them is I have no secrets or magic bullets. Just common sense and balls to the wall effort. That is what makes the difference. K.I.S.S.

This brings me to my next question. Years back you claimed that you ate a daily diet of around 30,000 kcals. Now that is fucking absurd and is more than a fucking gorilla or a lion would eat.

VR: I agree�?�it is totally absurd and I never said that. Well I did, but it was taken out of context, like most of the information in the magazines. I was asked what the most amount of calories I ate in a day was and I told the person conducting the interview that it was probably 30,000 but that was simply because I was eating Nigerian foods which are heavily loaded with lots and lots of fats.

I never said I ate 30,000 kcals on a regular basis and certainly not from Rice, Chicken and vegetables. You have to understand I basically did everything that I wasn�??t supposed to in terms of playing the political angle in bodybuilding. I marched to my own beat and still had lots of fans and still made a good living and this pisses off the powers that be.

So ANY opportunity to make me look like a fool and discredit me they will. But I will not be made to look like a fool. I am college educated and have a degree in psychology. Most of my family members are doctors and engineers, so there is no shortage of intelligence in my genes.

he did not eat 30 000 calories a day but he ate a crazy amount and this was witnessed all the time. in his training people would see him do the same exercise 4 hours straight that is not a joke. that is what he often liked to do , pick one bodypart, pick one exercise and keep doing over and over with short rest periods for hours.

both vic richards and Serge came from wealthy families and never worked a job outside of bodybuilding ever. they loved working out and they had the time available to do what they did.

serges method was misunderstood he lifted as heavy as possible but given his rest periods were short and reps hight it might seem light to someone resting 3, 4 or 5 minutes, meanwhile though in 5 minutes he lifted way more weight in pounds total. he advocated lifting as heavy as possible given a certain rest period and rep range.
his method is based on total pounds lifted in the least amount of time and constantly increasing that.and his method works bigtime. but you have to be willing to eat enough to allow you body to handle the massive volume and amount of weight lifted on Serge's program. if you do not eat and sleep enough on it the program does not work. this is nothing new for programs that push the recovery envelope. big beyond belief comes to mind as something similar,. work fine as long as you take care of business with the eating and sleeping. type Serges name on Youtube, you will see the man still had over 20 inch muscular arms at 70 years old.it works. his style allows you to have longevity because even though it allows you to lift a high amount of total weight in a given time , his rest periods and rep range keep the weight at a level that will not wreck your joints over time.

now what Serge also said is that after years his mind muscle connection was so good that if wanted to he could duplicate the feel of heavier weights through his mind even if he choose to lift lighter, so he could put whatever weight he wanted into the bar. this idea is nothing new many high level bbers talk about being able to do this after many years at it, Tony Freeman for example mentions this often but so do most other seasoned pros.
this is not to be confused with Serges style he did and recommends. he recommends lifting as heavy as you can as long as you follow the other parameters he set out.

another thing most people do not mention about serge is he used to max out in different lifts once and while as part of his training. he was very strong his max bench was 225 kg and max squat was 300 kgs. lifting max was not a huge part of what he did but he did do it occasionally.

actually what you tend to find is most pros are more similar than you think. the key ends up being lifting as heavy as you can for as many reps as you can, so both very heavy weight and very high reps. ever notice most of ronnies lifts are in the 12-15 reps range but he maxes out sometimes on some lifts once and while, sound similar to what Serge did doesn't it? Tom Platz very heavy, high reps. there are so many other examples. you have to build up to a point where you have made you body be able to lift very heavy weight for higher reps with not much rest time. this is the similarity you tend to find in most pros programs. the road to it a lot of times is different but that tends to be the end point.

why do you think a big reason why DCs program works so well. Because he found an excellent way to go both very heavy and have the reps high.

 

[ajdos]

Seriously why do you advocate such a offseason bing? it's damn unhealthy, and by no means necessary. Look at his face in that offseason pic....poor guy. Walk around most of the year not even looking like a bodybuilder? You of all should know that you don't need to look like a marshmallow man to gain the most muscle offseason. Actually it will halt your gains because your body will struggle with all the weight and use lot of energy just to cope with it, -energy which instead could be used to build lean body mass. You can't freggin force stuff yourself with food to grow - it just don't work that way.

It will only turn you fat, and you will have to diet for a much longer time when going down again, which again will make it harder to keep the gains compared to loosing say 5-8% to get in shape. He will neither be able to keep the same fullness.

Second thing, you should be able to see the definitions between the muscle groups and how they connect through the offseason so you can keep track of your progress. How can you be able to judge any of your symmetry when you look like that? He will see his actual development when he's 10 weeks out or something and then it's too late to correct any errors.

Hmmm...from where Im sitting it looks like he made outstanding gains, that happens to be something you hear people constantly bitching and complaining about NOT being able to do on the forums.
Your attitude is just like a lot of peoples, if it doesnt conform to the current dogma of the moment in bbing then it must be wrong, but bbers throughout the history of the sport have used this type of method to grow above and beyond the competition.

As he said early on in the thread, maybe this is not your cup of tea, doesnt make it wrong, just makes it someone elses method to his madness.
Thankyou Dante for this thread, one of the best threads I have read here on PM in a while.

 

[BB&D]

I like some of your posts mate but this is utter nonsense.

have you heard of evan cent, trey brewer, dusty hanshaw and many more. these guys get/got huge and went a little fluffy then came down and won major shows evan turning pro.

now they have built the mass they need they stay closer to comp prep as you say. all are young guys. do you think they would be were they are today by staying with 14-20lb of contest shape.

i certainly do not.

Evan went a little fluffy?.....well he looked like if you had pushed him downhill he would roll. And when he entered the lights, there were long threads about how unhealthy and much better he could have improved if he had stayed at a lower weight. Do you think Evan has not improved and only gained 2-3lbs lbm since he stopped doing that stuff?


And btw ofcourse Ruhl won't gain on 3k kcals, but will he gain if he eat any given amount above his maintane? yes he will, it's simple physics.

 

[doc]

there were long threads about how unhealthy and much better he could have improved if he had stayed at a lower weight.

Yeah, Evan probably should have listened to all the internet bodybuilders, he probably would have gotten his pro card a lot faster that way... because they definitely know what they're talking about... I mean I bet even you have your pro card right?

 

[ajdos]

Evan went a little fluffy?.....well he looked like if you had pushed him downhill he would roll. And when he entered the lights, there were long threads about how unhealthy and much better he could have improved if he had stayed at a lower weight. Do you think Evan has not improved and only gained 2-3lbs lbm since he stopped doing that stuff?


And btw ofcourse Ruhl won't gain on 3k kcals, but will he gain if he eat any given amount above his maintane? yes he will, it's simple physics.

Its called bodyBUILDING, not bodyMAINTAINING. Healthy? There is nothing healthy for the most part about competitive bodybuilding. Its a sport of xtreme measures...and your post doesnt make a lot of sense anyways, more like some hateful brotelligence IMHO.

This thread has given me a renewed sense of eating, much like one of those Branch Warren vids fires me up before I go to the gym.
This was the way I was brought up on bbing, eat big, get big, diet it down and refine it.
To those who want to maintain a much lower level of bf% in the offseason, more power to you. But if you want to make real big progress you have to make some ugly gains (within reason) as some have stated, chasing a number is not a good plan...but keeping bf within a tolerable range and adding pounds is a solid plan if you can tolerate the extra bodyweight.
On the other end of the extreme one can gain too much weight and when the apnea and fatigue set in on a daily basis it kills your training and recuperative abilities, so it starts to defeat the purpose.
Its about striking a balance.

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

Ok i woke up today and posts were missing so I asked one of the mods if i could see what was said.

Now 20 YEARS LATER, most advanced bodybuilders have figured out that this is not the best way to do it. It is better to stay not so far away contest weight for a lot of different reasons, some mentioned earlier here. You guys read MD? 1)You see all the guys who just have turned pro and who really need to fill it up to compete in the pro ranks? You read their strategies? Have you seen anyone state food is my anabolic and I'm going to force feed myself so I can look my best at my first pro contest lol? ffs...

DC must be about the only one who still advocate this stupidness. Not a single other - PRO - nutritional trainer I know of have their clients look like that. Why do you think that? So their clients can look and weight the same at the next Olympia, and the trainers can loose all their clients cause their not progressing? and not improve anything? 2)Most PRO creators get those few clients who still force feed in the offseason TO STOP doing that and get them on another route. It's counterproductive.
DC DO you really think the weight scale game and off season super bulking is why your clients gain their mass? DO you really still think that? it's not - it's other variables. Its the portein surplus, your training methods which shock their muscles, -and the drugs. It's not the extra fat and carbs. 3)Had you fed them a small surplus, adjusted to their gains of course, or had them eat balanced from their hunger they would have gotten just as big without the moonface.

1) Who the hell is talking about pro's? You are. Im not talking about pro's. Any of the guys on this thread pros? They are amateurs who didn't have enough size to get to the national level but (unlike 99% of the people out there who so badly want to win their state show and get to compete nationally)....they decided to get there quickly...AND DID! Do I advocate that exact route? No for the umpteenth time...but i am not going to say it doesnt work and work astonishingly fast for alot of amateurs who are trying to get up to a certain level quickly...and you cannot either....look at the damn pictures and contest weights! Check the scoreboard.

2) No shit....why are you talking about pro's? When you are a pro its all about marketing and money made and contracts and appearances. You dont have to worry about getting grossly bigger when you are a pro because you allready have pro size because you actually got your pro card! Im talking about people who got up to a very large size quickly as amateurs!

3) lets just break this down to simple terms why dont we?

We got two twin brothers....Eddy and Freddy...they both have good genetics and currently weigh 200 pounds at 6 foot tall after 4 years of natural lifting in reasonably lean shape.

a) EDDY is a fucking maniac....he dont give a shit about his health he just wants to weigh 250 and he doesnt care what he has to do to get there. He is going to take 4000mg of testosterone a week, on top of boatloads of gh and 4 grams of other steroids...."fuck it im going for it" is Eddys battle cry. Eddy probably isnt going to have to eat an abundance of food grossly over maintenance level because he is going to be on a surplus of testosterone and bodybuilding drugs that are going to skewer the ratio of hypertrophy insanely in his favor. At some points on his way to 250 he is going to have to increase food intake to keep the scale moving....but like most guys who use alot of drugs, he is going to think food has hardly anything to do with the equation because 'christ he just took off like a rocket ship when he added all these drugs in the equation'...no shit. In my opinion Eddy will gain 33 pounds right out the shoot within the first 6 months and the last 17 pounds will be a little harder to accomplish but he will be at 250 in 1.5 to 2 years. (im not quite convinced that Eddy will make it to 38 to 50 years old without having a heart attack, stroke or some kind of kidney failure from high blood pressure with that kind of drug abuse if he keeps it up but Eddy doesnt give a shit (right now) because his tunnel vision is 250 pounds.

2) FREDDY his twin brother wants to have a wife and family someday. He has set up boundaries for himself...he wants to live to 80-92 years old like his family genetics point to. Freddy also wants to get to 250 pounds just as badly as Eddy but absolutely refuses to abuse himself and maybe die early or have a major health event.

He has set his limits on the following. 400mg starting off of testosterone to 600mg of testosterone a week TOPS later on.....and 2ius of GH a day....one iu morn and one iu night.....THAT IS IT...thats freddys rules for himself. Now how the hell is Freddy going to get to 250 pounds? What is the hidden variable in the equation? The only hidden variable that he has is what? He has to train progressively heavier and he is limited to 400-600mg of testosterone and 2 ius of gh a day. I think he is going to make it but its going to take him alot longer than his brother....probably gain 17 to 24 pounds right out the shoot because of "first cycle gains"...and the last 26 to 33 pounds are going to be a fight/grind/battle no doubt about it.....but i think he is going to make it and it will take him probably 4 years at a minimum and more likely 5 years.

Now again 400-600mg of test, 2ius of gh, progressive training....what is going to be the hidden variable to get him to 250 pounds? Food...there is nothing else he can do but to eat his way up to 250 pounds. Is he going to be as impressive or hard as his brother? No he isnt. His brother is a walking pharmacy. So if everyone trains hard, and you arent going to abuse the living hell out of yourself with drugs to get incredibly large....WHAT DO YOU HAVE LEFT TO WORK WITH? You have one thing and one thing only...FOOD. If you are a high school 220 pound lineman and your college coaches say "hey you better be weighing 275 here in college or you are going to get blown the hell off the line?" What 2 options do you have? Drugs (in which you might get caught or you might have moral problems with doing) or Food. If you are a 200 pound bodybuilder...its the same equation....and alot of people who abuse the hell out of themselves with drugs, have absolutely forgotten the other variables at your disposal because drugs are so magical. So who is selling a pipe dream here? Your "hey eat over maintenance" approach which will only work if you bomb yourself with enough steroids and gh....or my "food is your anabolic" approach which is going to take you longer but you might see 44 years old and not die at 38 of a heart attack?

4) As far as your pro examples? Great....pro's. We sure arent talking about pro genetics are we? If everyone had pro genetics and gained muscle mass like pro's with limited eating and everyday training .....why the hell would 99% of the bodybuilding community on these board be trying to uncover every single rock to find out how they could gain more muscle. I could come in here and say "Hey everyone, Paul Dillet sometimes only ate once a day (truth), maybe twice a day (truth) because he said he wasnt hungry, according to his roomate lee priest he also was very moderate with his anabolic usage....Paul Dillett was 320 offseason and 287 in shows and looked like this below....he also had 20 inch arms one year after he started lifting, so yes you too can eat once or twice a day and look like Paul Dillett! Do you really think thats going to help 90% of the people in this forum with regular genetics?

 

[richiec]

So DC, you are saying that if I eat 1-2 times a day, I can have 20" arms? LMAO

 

[Arcus]

Awesome post, Dante.::ction-sm

 

[marshallmadman]

Go back and read what he wrote on that topic once again. Maybe you'll come away with a better understanding.

So DC, you are saying that if I eat 1-2 times a day, I can have 20" arms? LMAO

 

[animalsd]

Go back and read what he wrote on that topic once again. Maybe you'll come away with a better understanding.

He was joking man, hence the "LMAO smiley tounge face"

 

[totalrecomp]

Go back and read what he wrote on that topic once again. Maybe you'll come away with a better understanding.

I think he might be saying that sarcastically.

Been following the majority of the tips in 68 this go around and having a much better time of things.

Also to those who are proponents of the slightly above maintenance eating lets look at it this way.

Say I eat 200cals above and gain. Why do you think that it would not be better to eat 300 and gain more. As long as the ratio of fat to muscle gain does not tip heavily in the direction of fat(the tips in post 68 see to that) then why would you not want to eat more and gain more.

This just seems simple to me. Also the following the path that makes you happy is golden.

 

[h8tr3d]

Awesome thread here Dante........ opened my eyes prettygood!

 

[richiec]

Go back and read what he wrote on that topic once again. Maybe you'll come away with a better understanding.

Was definitely no serious Marshall. I read the entire post, and was actually makind fun of the douche-bag who was arguing with Dante