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In the hospital for the weekend .....

Not sure what Justin's blood work would have to do with the question I asked, you may want to re-read my question I asked you. Whether it be Justin or anyone else u have worked with, with the system of training that u created. Simply why would your system of training allow a prerson to maintain muscle mass permanently even after they quit training. Simple question directed to you the developer of this amazing system. Like I said you r not obligated to answer but I just wanted us to be on the same page as far as what I am asking.


I'd prefer to keep this thread about Chris; his situation is obviously much more important than mine.

Dante and I were emailing back and forth as friends. We weren't talking about weight training, size, or anything along those lines.
I sent him a photo of my oldest daughter at her first t-ball practice. I was in the background of the picture shagging errant throws from the kids. I was surprised that I didn't look as fat as I expected to in the picture.

From that, I mentioned that I was surprised to see how much I weighed at a recent doctor visit. I was 260lbs and had expected to be a lot less. We don't have a scale at our house and I hadn't been weighed in some time.

But, it's not as though there is some miracle with my weight. My whole family is around that weight. My father has been 260 lbs his whole life. All my uncles are around the same size. My Father's brother is the "lanky" one in the family because he's 6'2", but he's considered lanky because his 250lbs is spread out over a few more inches.

I remember getting a bad grade on an assignment about "averages" in elementary school. One of the questions was "what is the size of the average man?" I wrote 6' 250lbs, because every man I knew was about 6' and 250lbs.
I remember my mom having my dad do aerobics with her when I was a kid. He got down to 200lbs and looked like an anorexic. His neck looked tiny and he looked like a bunch of bones. I remember another time where I took him to the gym in high school. I wanted to show him how strong I was getting. He decided to try the bench press.....he had no idea what he was doing, grabbed the bar unevenly, brought it down to his stomach instead of his chest, lifted it up crooked....but he did 225 for 10 and 315lbs for 3. He had never lifted before and was in his 40's.
He coached my baseball teams growing up and could never wear the team's hats because he has a fat head. He can't wear fitted hats either because they usually only go up to 7 5/8th.

I'm only saying that to let people know that the fact that I'm 260lbs isn't outrageous in my family. All the men are that size.

I just expected to be 'fatter' at 260lbs. I'm certainly not lean, and don't think I look like a bodybuilder by any means, but I hadn't seen a picture of me in some time and was surprised to see that I still looked more muscular than I expected.

That is all this was about. Dante and I talked about it, and I suspected that some of it is from the heavy training. Very heavy training will stress the tendons and ligaments, forcing them to thicken. Bearing heavy loads will thicken bones, as an adaptation to stress. Heavy training will probably cause more contractile tissue thickening compared to other 'size' adaptations of increased vascular density, higher nutrient stores, increased fluid and glycogen content in the muscle, etc. It will also increase nerve innervation to the muscle fiber to increase % of tissue signaled to contract.

I would assume that those types of changes would be more 'permanent' than the types of adaptations that increase muscle size from lighter lifting.

Remember, the vast majority of a cross-sectional area of muscle tissue isn't actual contractile tissue. Anyone that's eaten beef jerky can see how much a mass of muscle 'shrinks' when it's dried out to nothing but the actual tissue. Training, specifically bodybuilding training, increases muscle size through many areas (mostly what I wrote above). The increase in volume that comes from more capillary density, dilated blood vessels, increased microvascular number/dilation, increased nutrient stores, etc., most likely affects muscle "size" much more than an actual increase in contractile fiber thickness.

So, that's all it is. As long as my Father is the person that impregnated my Mother, I would expect to be a big fat guy my whole life. So, the weight isn't really a surprise. I do feel that the 15 years of heavy training is likely a part of the reason I look more muscular than I would expect at this weight.
I was only a "bodybuilder" for about 3-4 years. The rest of those 15 years was spent training for football or powerlifting. Most people get the "bug" because of Arnold, my "idol" was Bill Kazmaier. So, I spent many more hours training to get stronger than I did training to look better with a tan and posing oil on.


I know it's hard to think any other way when you're actively training to get bigger, but I don't have any feelings either way on my size. I'd like to look "in shape" for my wife and to promote health to my kids, but I don't care to be the 'big guy.'
In fact, if being big does anything in school....it probably hurts me. I can only imagine what the professors think when I walk in to a Quantum Mechanics course on the first day...I'd imagine it isn't as positive of a thought as they have when they see the skinny kid walk in with the "May the F=ma be with you" shirt on....


As for the rhabdomyolysis, they finally diagnosed me with Lupus. My body attacks its tissues with antibodies. It has affected my connective tissue the most...so that is why I keep getting the rhabdomyolysis and myopathy readings from my tests. It's not a huge deal, it's just something I'll have to deal with.

I had no intentions of writing a novel here, but I figured I'd post so that people can get back on track with the original intent of the thread.
 
Last edited:
CHRIS...THANKS FOR BEING HONEST AND POSTING THIS.

You know KScowboy, I know that I had to help someone out in this situation...I just want everyone who has been feeling funny, out of breath, feeling just off...Should go to there doctor and get checked out...thats all I want anyone to do...You guys gotta be safe with this...I mean if you want to live a long life, and train hardcore for a long time...You got to keep yourself healthy...Yeah we are bodybuilders, and we can deal of tons of pain, and I did for years now...and I ignored them until it was to late...This is the end of my competing days....Nationals was my last show...Sucks, but I got a family, and my doctors are very confident that my heart will recover from this...So Im ok, with everything...I have to be...My girls will always come first...:D

I REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, APPRECIATE IT.
 
Chris, listen to the doctors and try to stay positive.
I know you've taken breaks from training and supplements at other times in your life, and the world didn't end then.

Listen to your doctors and try to make yourself as informed as possible.
It's easy to think that the doctors won't know anything about your specific situation....and there probably will be things about your situation that you can educate them about, but please listen to them.


If it makes any difference, what you've written here makes it sound like you got pretty lucky.
The 1.8 ventricle isn't insanely thick. I've seen LV's up around 2.5 or more. When I worked at the hospital, we'd regularly perform alcohol ablations on patients with IHSS. We'd also regularly send patients to get a myectomy for very sever hypertrophy.

Also, non-ischemic cardiomyopathy can be very bad. We had many patients with dilated cardiomyopathy who had no chance of recovery. The tissue would continue to be overtaken by fibrinous tissue until their EF got low enough to be completely non-functional.

The fact that the doctors seem to think that you can regain full function is very good. It means that the dilation is because of other reasons than fibrinous infiltration of the muscle.
If it is because of elevated blood volume and blood pressure, the dilation is an adaptation that comes from incomplete emptying and increased back pressure.
Because there is increased blood volume and high blood pressure, the muscles of the heart start to relax as an adaptation to allow more blood to fill the heart.

The heart does that as a last resort to maintain stroke volume. Unfortunately, it is a cascade that just gets worse. The dilated tissue isn't able to contract as well. Add that to the elevated pressures and high volume of blood....and the heart doesn't empty as well. The reaction to that is to dilate even more....which causes the same effect....

When the heart is dilated and attempting to contract against a high pressure, the muscle adapts and grows thicker.....because the contraction is already weakened by the dilation, and because it is pumping against a heavy weight (the blood pressure), it keeps getting thicker and thicker.

When the heart muscle thickens, it grows into the heart...making the cavity smaller.
Since your heart already thinks its cavity is too small, this just makes the dilation worse...which makes the hypertophy worse, etc., etc.

What's worse, the process will affect all filtering organs of the body. The kidneys will have to deal with the increased blood volume and decreased ejection fraction......but when there's high blood pressure, they're trying to deal with it while the blood pressure is damaging the tools it has to deal with it....which causes another bad cascade.

Because the heart isn't emptying well enough, the lungs have to deal with it as well. The blood passes by the lungs to get oxygen before it returns to the heart. But when there is all the problems with the heart, kidneys, increased blood volume, increased pressure, etc., the lungs can't keep up either.
When the blood gets 'backed up' at the alveolar sacs, the body tries to adapt again by removing the fluid from the blood to decrease volume. That fluid can then start to accumulate in the lungs....which causes breathing problems, which decreases blood oxygenation, which requires higher cardiac output by the heart, which causes more dilation and hypertrophy, which causes more strain on the kidneys......which causes more strain on the lungs, etc., etc.

So it all compounds on itself.
Just listen to the doctors and do what it takes to be healthy. You need to re-evaluate who and what you are. It's easy to allow the "big guy" identity to become your sole identity to people. It's a nice shell to fit into and gives you ground to base 'who you are.'
But, who you are is obviously more than that. It will be hard to deal with that change, but you have to get healthy. Do what it takes to get healthy or the cascade will just start all over again.
If it makes things easier now, think about getting back to training hard in the future.....AFTER you get better.
During the process of getting better, you will likely find that you no longer need the 'identity' of being the big guy once you get healthy.

It won't help the situation if you think about bodybuilding and how much you wish you could be doing it right now. I'd recommend finding something to fill that hole for now. You could take some classes in something you find interesting. Maybe even some A&P, biology, etc., to help you better understand your situation.
You might find that you enjoy it more than you'd expect. A lot of the doctors at any given hospital are there because a personal situation (either to themselves or someone they know) drove them to learn more about the body, which drove them to decide on medical school.

The head cardiology fellow when I left the hospital was in a situation like that. He was a business major, but something (I don't recall what) made him decide to go back and take some science classes. Eventually he got a degree in it, went to med school, found out he had a special ability in the field, became head fellow at one of the top heart hospitals in the country, and eventually was recruited by the Mayo clinic to be chief cardiologist for a new project they were developing....where he was brought in to develop the entire cardiology department.

I'm not saying you'll want to take that route, but life changes unexpectedly from time to time. Instead of feeling like you have to suffer through the changes, you can look at it as an opportunity to decide what changes it brings.


*The last part is way more mental masturbation than I'd like, but it took too long to type to just delete it now...*

Also, I'm not a doctor, so take what I said with a grain of salt. It should be a good synopsis of what is going on with your body, and can help you understand why things are happening the way they are, but it's just me trying to explain it all in one post....so take it as such.
 
Last edited:
^^^ damn justin good post bro, and its good to see you on the boards! Your a brilliant young man!
 
trop, that was an incredibly informative post. From the little heart physiology I know, the explanation really pulled things together. I also had to laugh when you talked about walking into a quantum mechanics class as a bigger guy, I know as I am getting into more and more advanced math and science classes (diffy qs, multivariable, spectroscopy), the professors really do seem surprised I am there. You definitely have my respect for tackling such high levels of academia.
 
Justin,

thank you for posting..I will give everything a thought...and truly think everything threw...yeah, its hard to think that Nationals and a DNP is my last show..thats not how I wanted to go...but my health and family do come first...there is a part of me, that wants to come back and win a show like the Team Universe (ok I wont lie Its a huge part of me) but to do that and what I even need to do there, might put me at risk...so I dont know...part of me wants to get down to below 200lbs and start riding motorcycles again (my second love) Hell with all the money I would be saving from not bodybuilding I could have a nice (NICE) bike again...like Aprilla, or something like that...LOL !!! But, everything is so new I just dont know yet...

chris
 
^^^ damn justin good post bro, and its good to see you on the boards! Your a brilliant young man!

Hey B-Boy PM your number again
 
Chris, my thoughts and prayers are with you brother. I lurk here often but rarely post. I can relate to what your going through. I have Graves Disease (hyperthyroid disease) and have been dealing with that for a few years. Didn't want to have my thyroid removed or treated with radioactive iodine just yet until I tried to reverse the problem. Well I went to several doctors recently for chest pain and kept being told it was being caused by GERD. Finally went to see a Cardio doc and he ordered a stress test. They did an Echo before the stress test and it showed I had an ejection fraction of 27%. Well I had a Lexiscan done (chemical scan) and it confirmed the Ejection fraction being low at 35% (cardio doc said my ef was between 30 and 35) but the good news is I have no blockages. The cardio doc and my Endo that I see for my thyroid disease both beleive that my low ejection is being caused by my thyroid disease. They also beleive that once I have my thyroid removed and get it regulated that my ejection fraction should go back to normal and my cardiomyopathy should be reversed. God I hope and pray so. I'm 27 and never done AAS. They told me I could continue to work out but no boot camp style exercises. I now monitor my blood pressure and heart rate daily (morning and night). Like I said I rarely post here even though I vist daily but since this hit so close to home I had to share my thoughts. I just found out about my condition about a month ago. Just wanted to let you know your not alone. I know others on here have offered their phone numbers via pm if you need to talk. I'll do the same, and if you ever need to talk pm me and I'll get you my information. I wish you a full and speedy recovery. I'll keep you in my prayers. BBK
 
Damn Chris...

I am not on much anymore and I missed this thread. I am truly upset that you have to go through this right now because as everyone knows I have been there under different circumstances. PLEASE FOCUS ON LIFE, your life and that of your famly.

The gym will always be there man. If anyone knows that its me, been there done that. You are in my prayers brother and if you need to chat with me, Im always available to you. Hate to see one of the truly great vets and a great man suffer, keep your head up...
 
I am not on much anymore and I missed this thread. I am truly upset that you have to go through this right now because as everyone knows I have been there under different circumstances. PLEASE FOCUS ON LIFE, your life and that of your famly.

The gym will always be there man. If anyone knows that its me, been there done that. You are in my prayers brother and if you need to chat with me, Im always available to you. Hate to see one of the truly great vets and a great man suffer, keep your head up...

not to hijack the thread at all Chris, im glad to hear you are doing better both physicallly and mentally.

BN, how has your recovery been after being down for some time? You seem to be doing great after i saw a video of you killing some heavy weight.
 
TROPONIN

I love reading Jasons' stuff.......he is so intelligent and he makes his info so easy to read......really breaks it down.....good work
 
still praying 4 you chris everyday...
 
Chris, your gonna be fine.. This is turning point in your life.. You will adapt and enyjoy everyday and a fun filled life... I won't be doing this forever either.. I focus more and more on my health everyday and hope to have a family like yours one day...
 
not to hijack the thread at all Chris, im glad to hear you are doing better both physicallly and mentally.

BN, how has your recovery been after being down for some time? You seem to be doing great after i saw a video of you killing some heavy weight.

Yea, I dont want to hijack either but I am doing very well. Im on HRT and lifting as heavy as ever and at my largest as well. Im doing alot more cardio now and watching what I eat. Im not perfect with the diet but my bloodwork comes back very good each time. So far my liver has regenerated and its functioning normally. I know I fucked myself up permanently, I probably wont live to 100 in other words, but Im ok and plan on making the most of it.Thank you for asking brother.

I love reading Jasons' stuff.......he is so intelligent and he makes his info so easy to read......really breaks it down.....good work

Absolutely Phil. But thats Justin Harris if Im not mistaken! haha He is one bright motherfucker and very easy to understand...
 
Chris, your gonna be fine.. This is turning point in your life.. You will adapt and enyjoy everyday and a fun filled life... I won't be doing this forever either.. I focus more and more on my health everyday and hope to have a family like yours one day...

Curt,

Hey bro. im not down at all..I mean the days are hard to fill in what im going to do right now..because im suppose to be just resting, relaxing, ect...So sometimes in the morning, I have a hard time gettting up...and get going...But, overall im ok ... ;)
 
I am not on much anymore and I missed this thread. I am truly upset that you have to go through this right now because as everyone knows I have been there under different circumstances. PLEASE FOCUS ON LIFE, your life and that of your famly.

The gym will always be there man. If anyone knows that its me, been there done that. You are in my prayers brother and if you need to chat with me, Im always available to you. Hate to see one of the truly great vets and a great man suffer, keep your head up...

Hey bro,

Im glad, your doing great...!!! :D
 
great great post

Chris, listen to the doctors and try to stay positive.
I know you've taken breaks from training and supplements at other times in your life, and the world didn't end then.

Listen to your doctors and try to make yourself as informed as possible.
It's easy to think that the doctors won't know anything about your specific situation....and there probably will be things about your situation that you can educate them about, but please listen to them.


If it makes any difference, what you've written here makes it sound like you got pretty lucky.
The 1.8 ventricle isn't insanely thick. I've seen LV's up around 2.5 or more. When I worked at the hospital, we'd regularly perform alcohol ablations on patients with IHSS. We'd also regularly send patients to get a myectomy for very sever hypertrophy.

Also, non-ischemic cardiomyopathy can be very bad. We had many patients with dilated cardiomyopathy who had no chance of recovery. The tissue would continue to be overtaken by fibrinous tissue until their EF got low enough to be completely non-functional.

The fact that the doctors seem to think that you can regain full function is very good. It means that the dilation is because of other reasons than fibrinous infiltration of the muscle.
If it is because of elevated blood volume and blood pressure, the dilation is an adaptation that comes from incomplete emptying and increased back pressure.
Because there is increased blood volume and high blood pressure, the muscles of the heart start to relax as an adaptation to allow more blood to fill the heart.

The heart does that as a last resort to maintain stroke volume. Unfortunately, it is a cascade that just gets worse. The dilated tissue isn't able to contract as well. Add that to the elevated pressures and high volume of blood....and the heart doesn't empty as well. The reaction to that is to dilate even more....which causes the same effect....

When the heart is dilated and attempting to contract against a high pressure, the muscle adapts and grows thicker.....because the contraction is already weakened by the dilation, and because it is pumping against a heavy weight (the blood pressure), it keeps getting thicker and thicker.

When the heart muscle thickens, it grows into the heart...making the cavity smaller.
Since your heart already thinks its cavity is too small, this just makes the dilation worse...which makes the hypertophy worse, etc., etc.

What's worse, the process will affect all filtering organs of the body. The kidneys will have to deal with the increased blood volume and decreased ejection fraction......but when there's high blood pressure, they're trying to deal with it while the blood pressure is damaging the tools it has to deal with it....which causes another bad cascade.

Because the heart isn't emptying well enough, the lungs have to deal with it as well. The blood passes by the lungs to get oxygen before it returns to the heart. But when there is all the problems with the heart, kidneys, increased blood volume, increased pressure, etc., the lungs can't keep up either.
When the blood gets 'backed up' at the alveolar sacs, the body tries to adapt again by removing the fluid from the blood to decrease volume. That fluid can then start to accumulate in the lungs....which causes breathing problems, which decreases blood oxygenation, which requires higher cardiac output by the heart, which causes more dilation and hypertrophy, which causes more strain on the kidneys......which causes more strain on the lungs, etc., etc.

So it all compounds on itself.
Just listen to the doctors and do what it takes to be healthy. You need to re-evaluate who and what you are. It's easy to allow the "big guy" identity to become your sole identity to people. It's a nice shell to fit into and gives you ground to base 'who you are.'
But, who you are is obviously more than that. It will be hard to deal with that change, but you have to get healthy. Do what it takes to get healthy or the cascade will just start all over again.
If it makes things easier now, think about getting back to training hard in the future.....AFTER you get better.
During the process of getting better, you will likely find that you no longer need the 'identity' of being the big guy once you get healthy.

It won't help the situation if you think about bodybuilding and how much you wish you could be doing it right now. I'd recommend finding something to fill that hole for now. You could take some classes in something you find interesting. Maybe even some A&P, biology, etc., to help you better understand your situation.
You might find that you enjoy it more than you'd expect. A lot of the doctors at any given hospital are there because a personal situation (either to themselves or someone they know) drove them to learn more about the body, which drove them to decide on medical school.

The head cardiology fellow when I left the hospital was in a situation like that. He was a business major, but something (I don't recall what) made him decide to go back and take some science classes. Eventually he got a degree in it, went to med school, found out he had a special ability in the field, became head fellow at one of the top heart hospitals in the country, and eventually was recruited by the Mayo clinic to be chief cardiologist for a new project they were developing....where he was brought in to develop the entire cardiology department.

I'm not saying you'll want to take that route, but life changes unexpectedly from time to time. Instead of feeling like you have to suffer through the changes, you can look at it as an opportunity to decide what changes it brings.


*The last part is way more mental masturbation than I'd like, but it took too long to type to just delete it now...*

Also, I'm not a doctor, so take what I said with a grain of salt. It should be a good synopsis of what is going on with your body, and can help you understand why things are happening the way they are, but it's just me trying to explain it all in one post....so take it as such.

Wow man, two extremely informative posts! I really enjoyed this post, and it coincides with what Maldorf was saying, only I have a better "idea" now of the cascade and so forth. Thank you so much for taking the time to post this. You also had me busting up when you put a 6'0 250 pound man as "average" ha ha ha. Yeah buddy!

And Chris -- this thread has gone in directions that have really helped people and also given many a glimpse into who you are as a person and not just a bodybuilder. You are a man with great might -- and walking this earth at 200 pounds is not going to change that. Although; riding motorcycles could imperil you more than bodybuilding lol! :)
 
Take care of yourself Chris. You have a beautiful family who will be more than happy to occupy your extra time as you give yourself a much needed break.
:D

Thanks to Justin for such a great read as well. Information we should all keep in mind.
 
I love reading Jasons' stuff.......he is so intelligent and he makes his info so easy to read......really breaks it down.....good work

If you're being serious (because I've also heard that I sound like a pompous ass when I write something like that...), I really appreciate it.

I started lifting in 1995. My training partner and I (we're still best friends) saw a photo of you with one leg on a 'home gym' of some sort in an ad of a magazine. We decided that our ultimate goal was a mix of that photo with Bill Kazmier, so you were one of the original people I looked up to when I began training.

My style of training was pretty much developed from an article of yours where you explained your thoughts on training (heavy, brief, etc). It changed over the years, but the basis has always been those general principles.
 

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